why no radar warning reciever?

[geogob]

No, it's an EKRAN warning linked to the L-140 LWS. It's not a feature of the arcade-mode

[159th_Viper]

Has anyone here actually been hit by a radar-guided SAM in the Ka-50?

 

The damndest thing that............

 

Happily Ingressing along, minding your own business.......admiring the scenery..........MAPVIEW..........WTF????

Should have read the brief...........:music_whistling: :P

[GGTharos]

At least it was quick and painless? :D

[GGTharos]

GOW was provided to give players conventional force on force scenario in addition to realistic COIN ops camp. GOW is not designed to be very realistic scenarios, given a NATO ground war in that location is a pretty absurd notion to begin with.

 

The GOW campaign was provided so you have no lack of a non-COIN campaign.

[Esac_mirmidon]

ANd IMHO a great decision by DCS-ED

[EtherealN]

Yeah, for a country that would usually make orders for hundreds of airframes when getting a new aircraft type in service, doing the whole testing routine for a type that you built so few of probably ends up with someone saying "meh, effort". :P

 

And waiting some good time in the testing and production regime to equip those things is not entirely unusual. I remember being stunned when the Swedish airforce stated that they were completing the testing and deployment of Chaff systems for the Gripen fighter when it was already commissioned to a wing or three. Armies and airforces do those things for modular systems - get the aircraft working and then you can complete the minor details UNLESS you end up cancelling production after like 20 airframes which never were even put into a full-scale production line.

[2win_TOWR]

Ok, i´ve just made some tests with airborne Radars, which are the most dangerous threats to helicopters (i guess).

 

Fact is, if your speed is below 27.7 km/h most fighter-radars wont detect you. Some other will only detect you, if you are going faster than 50 km/h)

 

Theres is a value to be found in the "\1C\Eagle Dynamics\Ka-50\Scripts\Database\db_sensors"

 

radial_velocity_min = 100.0 / 3.6,
relative_radial_velocity_min = 100.0 / 3.6, 

100:3.6 = 27.77777 (km/h)

 

Try it and you will see below this speed you are safe, if you run faster you´re almost dead. (tested with F-16C)

 

I don´t know how accurate this value is, compared to real life, but i think its way to slow. That would mean, even a tractor on a field could be detected by an APG-68 as a potential target.

 

Now imagine the Radar screen, when an APG-68 scans an area in lookdown, where a Highway is located.

 

I think the minimum speed for low flying targets must be higher.

I remember, with the APQ-120 (F-4F Phantom) it was around 120 km/h.

 

So entering a hostile Area in NOE-Flight with around 100 km/h would make a RWR almost redundant.

 

But like i said, i dont know, where ED´s datas come from.

[GGTharos]

In real life if your rotor's spinning a modern PD radar will paint you and you'll an AMRAAM target. The APG-63/68/70/73/77/80 are all capable of this. I'm pretty sure the F-18C is also capable.

 

Right now consider yourself lucky this isn't modeled ;)

[2win_TOWR]

In real life if your rotor's spinning a modern PD radar will paint you and you'll an AMRAAM target. The APG-63/68/70/73/77/80 are all capable of this.

 

I´m not so sure about this.

 

1. Rotorblades are made of some kind of carbon stuff (low reflection)

2. One Blade runs forward, other backwards (only one blade at a time gives you a reflection, the other will be filtered out because of interferences)

3. What about cars and Trucks with spinning wheels?

 

I still believe, only the relative movement over ground, together with the RCS can be detected by Pulse-Doppler-Radars. And that means, there must be a minimum speed over ground that must be higher than a moving car can run.

 

Anyway, I have to ask a former comrade next weekend. :smartass:

Edited February 3, 2009 by 2win_TOWR

[GGTharos]

I am. There is in fact narration from the F-15E attack on landed Mi-8's in destert storm; the helicopter was detected and tracked in A2A mode while landed, but its rotor was spinning ... from 50nm.

 

The targetting pod was then slaved to the A2A radar, and the actual attack was then conducted using an LGB.

 

They SPECIFICALLY mentioned the radar was never taken out of A2A mode ;)

[AlphaOneSix]

1. Rotorblades are made of some kind of carbon stuff (low reflection)

 

Very few helicopters have this feature.

[2win_TOWR]

There is in fact narration from the F-15E attack on landed Mi-8's in destert storm; the helicopter was detected and tracked in A2A mode while landed, but its rotor was spinning ... from 50nm.

 

 

They SPECIFICALLY mentioned the radar was never taken out of A2A mode ;)

 

 

I didnt read any article about this incident, but if this really happened, i would guess it was only possible because of the flat desert terrain.

Hardly to believe the APG-70 would perform the same way in european environments. :smartass:

[GGTharos]

Hard why? Only if there was a mountain/hill inbetween. The point is helis can be picked up while their rotors are spinning even if they aren't actually moving. :)

[EtherealN]

TBH, we need some of them Orca's from the original Command & Conquer. :D

[2win_TOWR]

Hard why? Only if there was a mountain/hill inbetween.

 

 

No, because in a desert are only few streets (few cars), few trees, few buildings, and the terrain is pretty flat. So a single helicopter with running rotors is just on the display.

 

And the point isnt proved for me! At least not in BS environment. :no:

 

Aaaaaand out!!

[GGTharos]

They don't really matter; when the fighter flies high enough the angle is such that streets, cars and buildings don't matter all that much. The rotor has fairly high velocity compared to the ground which is why it gets picked up despite the doppler filter.

Spinning car wheels? Probably don't quite have the RCS, as well as being hidden.

 

And as I said ... this isn't modeled in DCS. Yet.

[EtherealN]

A point to remember on the velocity of those rotors and why they can be differentiated - one of the things limiting helicopters is the fact that you don't what the rotortips to break mach1. I believe one of the advantages of the Lynx is how it's special rotortips handle airflow for things like this. Those tips are moving FAST.

[MBot]

GOW is not designed to be very realistic scenarios, given a NATO ground war in that location is a pretty absurd notion to begin with.

 

Thats why we need a Germany theater :)

[GGTharos]

Fulda Gap FTW ... but ... who's win?

 

You decide ... in DCS: Fulda Gap :D

[Frederf]

I have been severely let down by the GOW campaign. I don't know if my survivability would be much greater with an RWR or not but it's not very high at the moment. In a recent mission (Area Defense) there's about a 20 armored vehicle rush against the defensive line. Threats include a 2-ship of Hinds, 2-ship of Su-25s (which WILL swoop in and shoot you down at any altitude with impunity and murder you), sniper-shot T-72s, and several Grail vehicles.

 

It's really too much to ask for a Ka-50 pilot and his dummy wingman with only 12 Vikhr salvos to deal with. You know there's over 100 missions in GOW and 12 or so in Deployment? Yeah, ED screwed up, it should be the other way around.

[GGTharos]

You're welcome to make better ones if you don't like what is offered right now.

[EvilBivol-1]

Should probably add a FAQ entry about the lack of an RWR on the Ka-50...

 

It's inaccurate to say that the modeled aircraft is a prototype and that a production version would have been equipped with an RWR. For one thing, the modeled aircraft is one from the initial (and only) production batch and is in service with the military. It is not a prototype. However, as is the case with most other aircraft, the initial production batch may have been significantly altered/upgraded in future batches, but these never materialized. To assume these unrealized upgrades would include RWR is as fair as to assume they would not.

 

RWR equipment has never been tested on the Ka-50 according to all publicly available information known to me. What has been tested is an electro-optical sensor suit for missile launch detection, warning, and jamming.

 

Furthermore, it's also incorrect to assume that the Ka-50 is somehow relegated to lack a RWR because it was intended for a low-threat environment, while other helicopters, such as the Mi-24 or Mi-28 would be equipped with RWR for a high-threat environment. As things currently stand, public evidence points to most Mi-24s and Mi-28s not being equipped with RWR equipment, either.

 

We can guess around about what would happen in the late-80s if the USSR went to war with NATO and whether Soviet helicopters in-theater would have been equipped with RWR, but that's not what is simulated in DCS. To the degree possible, DCS attempts to put the player inside current hardware as employed today and the way it would go to war tomorrow if such a need arose. As such, a Ka-50 pilot would operate without a RWR, as did a number of Mi-24 pilots flying over Georgia in August of last year. It may not be how things should be or how they would be in 1989, but it's how things are.

Edited February 4, 2009 by EvilBivol-1

[Frederf]

You're welcome to make better ones if you don't like what is offered right now.

 

Oh cool then ED will happily refund 1/2 my purchase price then.

[uhoh7]

frederf, I got shot down by a hawk in the ambush senario at 75m altitude. I never even knew it was there untill I checked the tacview acmi after the mission :(

 

But if you stay low you are safe. I agree the Hawks are scary, but the mission is doable.

 

Frederf: RE GOW, chapter one is totally doable, 2 gets a bit crazy and at least one mission is basically impossible, because the start points of the enemy column have been placed too close. However all can be edited, so you can pull out what you don't like. The sniper tanks are only dangerous inside 4k, and if you side slip they won't hit you. The abrahms and Leopards are the worst because they eat your missles---there it's crucial to keep the wingie alive long enough to get some of them. I make him hold behind ingress untill i figure out whats going on.

 

Also there are few that play way to slow---again they can be easily cleaned up to play well. I have my GOW missions backed up and my player.lua When I hit one that I cannot even get close in, I open it and take a look.

 

All that said there are many great missions in the GOW.

 

To me ED resources are better spent in giving us an addtional campaign and improving various issues like FARP templates 3D, placement, vehicle DMs etc than fitting an RWR.

 

I was hoping to see more missions appearing, but I think ED should help out a bit in this area---the life of the sim is content.

 

Everything is not perfect but who else gave us a fun study sim lately?

[Frederf]

It's not my job to make or edit mission content. That's what I paid ED for.