A/A refueling for trainees

[SharpeXB]

17 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

This has to be in game partially already or the AI would not know how to use airports.

Probably not the same thing but taxi directions would be a good feature of revamped ATC. 

17 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

You can see the ground just by looking out the window, why did the waste time adding an altimeter to the plane?

Actually true in some respects like VFR. And aerial refueling is definitely VFR, you don’t need instruments to tell you what’s right in front of your face. Again the “path” you’re supposed to follow in AAR is fairly obvious. That’s not the challenge. If you can’t keep formation with another plane how is keeping formation with a green square any different?

Edited April 14, 2023 by SharpeXB

[SharpeXB]

4 hours ago, Dangerzone said:

What's surprised me about that poll (and thanks for having the foresight to put that up back then) is that roughly 1/3rd of the voters would be for it, which honestly I didn't expect. I thought there would be far less than that - maybe 10-15% was my guess -  which if anything shows that there's actually more need for it than I gave it credit.

Or you can see the poll as a vote of about 2:1 against. A “vote” was more likely the intention of it. In any case ED has said repeatedly they aren’t going to do this and yet the discussion continues…

[FlankerKiller]

On 4/12/2023 at 10:54 PM, Salty Buckets said:

And just going based off of what we have in DCS, what do we have in game that has been gamified to a point where, as what I've seen recommended in this channel, (which, mind you, would take time away from the developers who are trying to appeal it seems more to what you call the hardcore-only experience) would auto-guide your plane into aerial refuel and contact? What's the point at that point? That's why I stress that this is a simulator, is because ED treats it as so. They even backed this up moreso when they deleted the gamified versions of FF module's flight models. Support of FC3 has completely ended and ED has said multiple times that they have no plans of adding more to FC3 other than minute changes and bug fixes. 

The only thing, like I stated before, that I can see even slightly corresponding to what ED has done in the past for, say, the Supercarrier is have a pop out window that exactly copies the line-up lights that are on the tanker you are refueling off of. And that's really all is "needed" for people who have worse resolution, and it may help some folks that struggle seeing the line-up lights while tanking.

 

Huh, idk how I missed that, but yeah lol.

Takeoff assistants for WWII fighters, easy radio communications, game flight model, game G effects, Unlimited weapons, Unlimited fuel, easy engine management on some aircraft, auto start, optional wake turbulenc. Should I go on? Most of the time new players use the "crutch" until they master it. Then once they are ready they move onto the more realistic setting. I'm not actually sure that how it is now is that realistic. I come from the tankers world and have some clue how that boom works. It's got about ten feet of extension/retraction and can be flown about ten feet at least up down left and right. Also there is a fully trained boom operator helping you be flying that boom to you. Also once you are on the boom there are bigh steel locks that lock the jets together. So it's not really perfect formation flying to refuel. The physics of the hose and drog system don't seem right at all. Once you hit that basket it shouldn't come off the probe unless you slow down, or rip the hose off the tanker, or the refueling probe. But I've seen a few drogs ripped off. Also the hose should give you a good bit of push back. So staying connected shouldn't be that difficult. Also what difference dose it make to you if they did implement and easy tanking options. Who cares what the other player dose. You want full realism go for it. If someone else doesn't want to spend the time then so be it. It's a video game. Yes it's a video game that dose strive to represent the most realistic flight experience possible, and can be used as a simulator. But most of us use it as a video game. Speaking of realism. You've had someone who sounds a lot like a military pilot to me, and I spent twenty years talking to them nearly daily, telling you that refuel needs some work anyway. And ED has said that basket and boom physics are getting updated. So why scream about realism on an aspect that isn't realistic as is? And again I support the idea of an optional assist for tanking. The key word is optional. I'm one that spends hours shooting ILS approaches heads down in the C-101EB, flying cross countries, shooting transitions, and hovering helicopters because I enjoy it. But it took a long time and many hours to get there. So I definitely support adding an "easy tanking" option as suggested. Even better make it a scaleable assist like the takeoff assistance is. Start ridiculously huge, and be able to scale it down to full realism. That why as the player improves they can reduce the amount of assistance until they don't need it at all. 

[FlankerKiller]

I definitely support adding an "easy tanking" option as suggested. Even better make it a scaleable assist like the takeoff assistance is. Start ridiculously huge, and be able to scale it down to full realism. That why as the player improves they can reduce the amount of assistance until they don't need it at all. 

[JCTherik]

I don't like the idea of assists, but it highly depends on what kind.

 

Automatic flying following the tanker? - Please don't.

Magically filling the tanks when next to a tanker? - HELL NO.

More forgiving basket box? - I really dislike the idea.

Visual overlays showing "go up" "go down" "go forward" etc? - Maybe.

Automatically reducing the stick range to gain more precision after being cleared for contact? - Sure, would help with wobbly sticks.

Visual cues and screen overlays about depth perception, distance and closing speed? - Sure, would help on pancake.

Boom tanker lights overlay? - Sure. Would help with wonky resolution screens, but it could also be fixed by finally fixing the light bloom graphics - same as the meatball.

A one off custom made training mission where you can enable any sort of extra help on top of that? - In SP, do whatever you want.

 

Basically, if you and YOU ALONE still fly the airplane, but you need any sort of visual cues or custom adjustment of your stick curves in order to refuel, I think that's going to be much more acceptable in the community than a "refueling autopilot".

 

 

Edited April 27, 2023 by JCTherik

[sirrah]

Perhaps this could be a solution for those having difficulties with AAR, yet still want to be able to somewhat experience from the cockpit what it's like:

 

 

[FireHazard]

On 4/10/2023 at 9:45 PM, Furiz said:

Gatekeeping?

Imagine they do this for him, they make the change, then some other guy steps in says he is navy pilot and its not like that and they need to change, so they change it again, then few months later some other "navy pilot" steps in and says ... you see where this is going?

AAR is not science fiction, it not something impossible to do, it requires practice, some need to practice more some need less practice but we all need to practice it. Thousands of pilots in real life did it (with access to AAR ofc), and thousands of sim pilots did too, so keep practicing.

And that aid would not help anyone really, cause people that ask for it would not stop using it, so essentially they are asking for aid to help them AAR that would never get turned off cause that aid wont help them get precision needed to AAR, cause obviously with the aid they don't need to be precise so they don't practice it properly, and as soon as they turn it off they would not be able to make it.

So in the end the aid you are asking for becomes a feature you'll be using on and on and this sim, by introducing such aids, bit by bit becomes more and more arcade game rather than simulator.

The " no patience to practice AAR" ...    

This is the 'gatekeeping' behaviour, that because person X cannot do what you can do it's because they don't have the patience, are not dedicated and hardcore enough... some of this is equipment related too, having a decent stick and throttle etc etc ... this is all part of the gatekeeping, if only people who can spend huge amounts of money (for arguments sake) can ever hope to perform certain things then that's a problem for the player base. 

I'm learning AAR now...it's a challenge but formation flying is as many have said is the key... if I never master it and need a help mode, I'm not going to feel like a lesser person

So what if people don't want to ever turn of the refuelling aid, isn't this about enjoying it the way we want to enjoy it rather than the way somebody is telling us we should? 

[Furiz]

2 hours ago, FireHazard said:

The " no patience to practice AAR" ...    

This is the 'gatekeeping' behaviour, that because person X cannot do what you can do it's because they don't have the patience, are not dedicated and hardcore enough... some of this is equipment related too, having a decent stick and throttle etc etc ... this is all part of the gatekeeping, if only people who can spend huge amounts of money (for arguments sake) can ever hope to perform certain things then that's a problem for the player base.

You don't understand that there is no gatekeeping, I did my first AAR with T16000 stick, it has that slider on the back that I used for throttle, it was very hard to do it with that kind of throttle but I did it, and yes I invested time in it I didn't just jump in the cockpit and airquake all day long.

Now I use TM F-16 stick with magnetic base and T16000 throttle combination, and even tho the throttle is not that precise I can do it with it, cause I spent time practicing. Reality is that you won't be good or expert in anything if you don't spend time doing it, it just wont happen. For example you can't be good at tennis if you don't spend time playing tennis.

So if you don't spend time practicing AAR you won't do it. That's it, that's reality.

2 hours ago, FireHazard said:

I'm learning AAR now...it's a challenge but formation flying is as many have said is the key... if I never master it and need a help mode, I'm not going to feel like a lesser person

So what if people don't want to ever turn of the refuelling aid, isn't this about enjoying it the way we want to enjoy it rather than the way somebody is telling us we should? 

It's not about you being a lesser person with using aids, it's really not about that, it's not that somebody is telling you how to do something, its like that cause it is like that in reality, they don't have aids to AAR and since we are trying to simulate.... its self explanatory really.

And it's about that this game is a simulator, and that means it is trying to simulate the real thing as close as it can, by introducing aids like these this game is moving the opposite direction and becoming arcade, and that's not why all of these people are here for.

[cfrag]

28 minutes ago, Furiz said:

It's not about you being a lesser person with using aids, it's really not about that

It's probably not for you, but I have the distinct impression that it is for some other players here. People who believe themselves to be superior players to others because they have mastered something, and that this accomplishment sets them apart from mere 'average players', and especially 'noob players'; they tend to see their ability as a status symbol - one they are eager to defend. These players often want to protect their self-defined "higher status" by strongly and vociferously protesting against anything that would 'cheapen' their feat: if others can do the same without putting in the time and effort that they did, their supposed superiority is challenged.

It has nothing to do with realism. This is a game, and people want to have fun. If there is an AAR helper OPTION, it's the player's decision to use it, no skin off anyone else's nose. Those who claim otherwise often have other motives: it doesn't really cheapen the game, but it does cheapens their own perceived "superior status".

Can we please put this silly discussion to rest. Optional AAR helpers are a niche game element that can make a part of the game DCS more accessible to some. 

[Furiz]

38 minutes ago, cfrag said:

People who believe themselves to be superior players to others because they have mastered something, and that this accomplishment sets them apart from mere 'average players', and especially 'noob players'; they tend to see their ability as a status symbol - one they are eager to defend. These players often want to protect their self-defined "higher status" by strongly and vociferously protesting against anything that would 'cheapen' their feat: if others can do the same without putting in the time and effort that they did, their supposed superiority is challenged

It's really a psychological issue of people thinking they are lesser people cause they cant accomplish something, it's their problem really. Then they like to present it like those that accomplished it have no life and play all day long with superior equipment, cause after all how else can they do it right?

But as I said earlier, there is really no difference and everyone can do AAR and all you need to do it practice like with everything else.

[cfrag]

8 minutes ago, Furiz said:

It's really a psychological issue of people thinking they are lesser people cause they cant accomplish something

I don't think so - many would be perfectly willing to use a helper. It's the vehement opposition to this helper that I find puzzling. It would not affect anyone who doesn't want to use it. Why oppose it? 

9 minutes ago, Furiz said:

everyone can do AAR and all you need to do it practice

Agreed. But not everyone thinks it fun to learn AAR or perform AAR, yet it may be a requirement in some missions. I'd say don't fly the mission if you can't do it, but OTOH I have no truck with anybody on my team who'd be using a helper - as long as I can do as I please. And having fun in a group is my goal, so I'm happy when everyone joins in. To me it's a matter of accessibility and individual fun. If the helper only affects the player who uses it, I see no reason to be against it. To me it's like auto-start: some days I use it because I can't be bothered with busy work (and would even prefer hot start), other days I enjoy going through the list. It should be my choice, and it affects nobody else. 

[FlankerKiller]

6 hours ago, cfrag said:

I don't think so - many would be perfectly willing to use a helper. It's the vehement opposition to this helper that I find puzzling. It would not affect anyone who doesn't want to use it. Why oppose it? 

Agreed. But not everyone thinks it fun to learn AAR or perform AAR, yet it may be a requirement in some missions. I'd say don't fly the mission if you can't do it, but OTOH I have no truck with anybody on my team who'd be using a helper - as long as I can do as I please. And having fun in a group is my goal, so I'm happy when everyone joins in. To me it's a matter of accessibility and individual fun. If the helper only affects the player who uses it, I see no reason to be against it. To me it's like auto-start: some days I use it because I can't be bothered with busy work (and would even prefer hot start), other days I enjoy going through the list. It should be my choice, and it affects nobody else. 

We rarely agree. But on this we are in full agreement. 

[FireHazard]

On 4/29/2023 at 3:14 AM, Furiz said:

I invested time in it I didn't just jump in the cockpit and airquake all day long.

It's *exactly* mindset like this that forms the gatekeeping. Your are sitting in superior judgement about the way you prefer to do things sadly. 

On 4/29/2023 at 3:14 AM, Furiz said:

And it's about that this game is a simulator, and that means it is trying to simulate the real thing as close as it can, by introducing aids like these this game is moving the opposite direction and becoming arcade, and that's not why all of these people are here for.

Then I guess in your world, if you have a disability of some sort, then just like you can't become a real fast jet pilot...you can't become a good DCS one either. 

[Furiz]

27 minutes ago, FireHazard said:

It's *exactly* mindset like this that forms the gatekeeping. Your are sitting in superior judgement about the way you prefer to do things sadly. 

No one is stopping you from practicing, don't see any gatekeeping here.

Take football for example, Modrić is best midfielder ever to play that game, does he sit in some bar and drinks beer all day? no, he is on the field practicing, ofc he is gonna be great with time invested.

29 minutes ago, FireHazard said:

Then I guess in your world, if you have a disability of some sort, then just like you can't become a real fast jet pilot...you can't become a good DCS one either.

I have a friend with some sort of muscle disease, I don't know the name of it, that makes his right arm shake, he is real life pilot who can't fly now, he also flies DCS, but what he did is practice to make that arm steady and he eventually did AAR.

And don't pull those disability cards, it's cheap, you are trying to invoke compassion and expect me to say oh yea I'm so careless we should make DCS arcade game right away.

But what I want to do is to give those people with disability and those that have difficulty some sort of goal that they can achieve, and after that they would feel rewarded and full of pride of achieving something, rather than holding their hand and achieving that for them. Its not the same feeling. In latter case they feel they need someone to do stuff for them all the time, and that is bad for them in the long run.

Helping them do it on their own is much more rewarding and it helps them build up that shaken confidence.

Just a few thoughts if you think about disabled people that much. (but this is very very large subject)

But off course you wont take this into account cause in the first place you don't care about disabled you just wanted to attack my standpoint insinuating I'm some careless elitist who just wants to make his superior achievements even more superior.

 

[cfrag]

Just now, Furiz said:

No one is stopping you from practicing, don't see any gatekeeping here.

Take football for example, Modrić is best midfielder ever to play that game, does he sit in some bar and drinks beer all day? no, he is on the field practicing, ofc he is gonna be great with time invested.

I believe this is what people mean when they say "gatekeeping" - and it's difficult to see it yourself when you are the gatekeeper. In your analogy you see yourself as Modric, the hero who has invested time and effort: and you do implicitly look down on others who sit around in bars stuffing their lazy faces, as you seem to think. You see yourself as someone who has accomplished AAR, and if other people want to do do that, by god they'll have to get off their lazy asses and put in the hard work; there should be no shortcuts to your lofty position.

Now, you may not really think that - I don't think that you do - but you very much come across like someone who thinks that. DCS is a game, and different people have fun differently. You revel in the difficult task of AAR. But that's not everyone's cup of tea. I often enjoy shooting precision approaches (in the confines of DCS 'sorta-precision', but I digress. Everyone else in my group can't be bothered. Yet DCS allows anyone easy landings, ignore all procedures without any consequences. That is good. So instead of denying an experience (be it landings or AAR) to everyone who doesn't want to do just like you and I ("only the tough can do it"), I would argue that we allow people a softer approach. It may look like driving the car on the back seat with a fake steering wheel - but that shouldn't be mine nor your problem - as long as they enjoy it.

[FireHazard]

58 minutes ago, Furiz said:

No one is stopping you from practicing, don't see any gatekeeping here.

Take football for example, Modrić is best midfielder ever to play that game, does he sit in some bar and drinks beer all day? no, he is on the field practicing, ofc he is gonna be great with time invested.

I have a friend with some sort of muscle disease, I don't know the name of it, that makes his right arm shake, he is real life pilot who can't fly now, he also flies DCS, but what he did is practice to make that arm steady and he eventually did AAR.

And don't pull those disability cards, it's cheap, you are trying to invoke compassion and expect me to say oh yea I'm so careless we should make DCS arcade game right away.

But what I want to do is to give those people with disability and those that have difficulty some sort of goal that they can achieve, and after that they would feel rewarded and full of pride of achieving something, rather than holding their hand and achieving that for them. Its not the same feeling. In latter case they feel they need someone to do stuff for them all the time, and that is bad for them in the long run.

Helping them do it on their own is much more rewarding and it helps them build up that shaken confidence.

Just a few thoughts if you think about disabled people that much. (but this is very very large subject)

But off course you wont take this into account cause in the first place you don't care about disabled you just wanted to attack my standpoint insinuating I'm some careless elitist who just wants to make his superior achievements even more superior.

 

If you don't see that making comparisons to people who can do AAR refuelling in DCS and Modrić as gatekeeping then I'm wasting my time here. 

Disability cards? Good grief, are we in 2023? You might as well say, let's give paraplegics a goal to walk up those stairs by themselves one day. 

I think you're doing a wonderful job of sounding like a careless elitist without my help....

38 minutes ago, cfrag said:

I believe this is what people mean when they say "gatekeeping" - and it's difficult to see it yourself when you are the gatekeeper. In your analogy you see yourself as Modric, the hero who has invested time and effort: and you do implicitly look down on others who sit around in bars stuffing their lazy faces, as you seem to think. You see yourself as someone who has accomplished AAR, and if other people want to do do that, by god they'll have to get off their lazy asses and put in the hard work; there should be no shortcuts to your lofty position.

Now, you may not really think that - I don't think that you do - but you very much come across like someone who thinks that. DCS is a game, and different people have fun differently. You revel in the difficult task of AAR. But that's not everyone's cup of tea. I often enjoy shooting precision approaches (in the confines of DCS 'sorta-precision', but I digress. Everyone else in my group can't be bothered. Yet DCS allows anyone easy landings, ignore all procedures without any consequences. That is good. So instead of denying an experience (be it landings or AAR) to everyone who doesn't want to do just like you and I ("only the tough can do it"), I would argue that we allow people a softer approach. It may look like driving the car on the back seat with a fake steering wheel - but that shouldn't be mine nor your problem - as long as they enjoy it.

Excellent points... for all the gatekeeping and pedestals around AAR... many of the DCS Modrić's (I can't believe we are comparing our hobby simming to elite sports people now) couldn't operate in real world airspace if their life depended on it... DME arcs, instrument approaches, flight planning around real world style restrictions, when was the last time a DCS elite checked the NOTAMs? So any talk about 'realism' in this context is just that, gatekeeping. As a real IR pilot I don't look down upon those who haven't reached to "loft heights" of instrument rating standards...  nor would I call for handicaps on players who can't fly IFR properly in DCS... 

Edited April 30, 2023 by FireHazard

[Furiz]

Again absolutely no valid arguments from you guys for AAR other than trying to make others that don't want it look bad to prove your point.

It's completely unnecessary to have such aids in my opinion as it only takes time and practice to do AAR. If you can't invest time into practicing something you wont be able to do it sry, that's reality.

So stop your airquake and off to the tanker and practice, good luck!

 

[Ironhand]

4 hours ago, Furiz said:

..It's completely unnecessary to have such aids in my opinion as it only takes time and practice to do AAR. If you can't invest time into practicing something you wont be able to do it sry, that's reality.

So stop your airquake and off to the tanker and practice...

 

No it's a simulation, not reality. If I want to refuel and don't have the time to invest in "practicing" in a simulation and the crutch doesn't effect you, what's it to you? And adding such a crutch doesn't suddenly equate DCS to airquake.

[FlankerKiller]

On 4/30/2023 at 3:14 PM, Ironhand said:

No it's a simulation, not reality. If I want to refuel and don't have the time to invest in "practicing" in a simulation and the crutch doesn't effect you, what's it to you? And adding such a crutch doesn't suddenly equate DCS to airquake.

It's already used as air quake, and that is fine. Honestly this thread needs to be closed. It's a game, a vary realistic game, but a game. It's so realistic that it can be used as a simulator, but it's also a game. Enabling a practice mode could actually help people learn to tank in the sim. If it's not for you then so be it. Honestly the physics aren't modeled correctly anyway, and apparently that has been addressed and they are working on it. But even when it's finished there would still be value in a "tanking assist". I say put it on a slider like the takeoff assist. Basically just increase the size of the virtual basket. As players get more confident many, probably most will shink that back down to the most realistic setting anyway. It dosen't affect you even in multi player so who cares. What it would do is make DCS more accessible to beginners. More accessible means more players. More players means more mony for modules, maps, core updates. So why worry about other players skills at doing this kind of flying anyway? 

[cfrag]

13 hours ago, FlankerKiller said:

So why worry about other players skills at doing this kind of flying anyway? 

We have seen the answer first hand, just a few posts ago: there are people who believe that being able to AAR is a momentous feat, an accomplishment that they would (unironically) liken to that of life-long professional, elite sportsmen. This ostensibly serves to boost their ego; it allows them to look down on others who aren't, in their mind, "elite" enough; the sissies, who won't put in the hard work, or, as I assume, aren't "manly" enough to properly train AAR. You know: the Betas. 

Now, if you allowed just anyone to AAR, this feeling of superiority would crumble, dealing a blow to their self-esteem.

I know - but that's why this AAR 'feat' is so jealously guarded. 
 

[SharpeXB]

14 hours ago, FlankerKiller said:

Basically just increase the size of the virtual basket. As players get more confident many, probably most will shink that back down to the most realistic setting anyway

That might seem like a reasonable solution. Except that this virtual size would be invisible and so not a very good training aid. As an alternative you could simply select unlimited fuel and practice connecting during your flights which would accomplish the same thing. I’m not so much against aids although they present a problem for mp. But I just can’t figure what such aids should be that would actually help. 

[Exorcet]

On 4/30/2023 at 10:31 AM, Furiz said:

It's completely unnecessary to have such aids in my opinion as it only takes time and practice to do AAR. If you can't invest time into practicing something you wont be able to do it sry, that's reality.

This is DCS, the sim which offers many assists for many features in the game. If you prefer to have some help in learning something, it's often there. That's reality. AAR assists fit right in with everything we have already.

[JCTherik]

1. go to aerobatics servers

2. follow people

3. have fun

4. get a little closer when you feel comfortable

5. go back to step 3.

month or two later, voila... you can now refuel with your right hand while typing a message with your left hand.

 

If ED adds some crutches that compensate for the DCS-isms which make it hard, such as better representation of G-forces to "feel" the acceleration, pitch-up, etc, or gives you some rough indicator of how far the thing you're looking at is to compensate for lack of depth perception, I would quite welcome it, but any "cheat mode" refuel just waters down the realism that's already being watered down everywhere. I don't want another warthunder or IL2.

 

But AAR isn't some magic, it's like driving. After a while, you just know how much to turn the steering wheel or how much to step on the gas and how long to wait for a response from the car. Obviously, it does take tens of hours, and if you don't do it for a while, you become a little rusty, although not completely.

Coming behind a tanker and wobbling 100 meters in every direction is completely normal in the beginning.

So much time gets wasted on those endless discussions, just imagine how many more people could refuel if all those hours were invested in some formation flying instead.

[Furiz]

12 hours ago, Exorcet said:

This is DCS, the sim which offers many assists for many features in the game. If you prefer to have some help in learning something, it's often there. That's reality. AAR assists fit right in with everything we have already.

No it doesn't have those kind of assist like AAR assist would be.

Help in learning something, yea off course, it will guide you through it but it wont hold your hand doing it.

AAR assist really doesn't fit with this sim.

 

11 hours ago, JCTherik said:

But AAR isn't some magic, it's like driving. After a while, you just know how much to turn the steering wheel or how much to step on the gas and how long to wait for a response from the car. Obviously, it does take tens of hours, and if you don't do it for a while, you become a little rusty, although not completely.

This is true,

I'm saying that all this time but they are lazy and spoiled and don't want to put any effort in it, they want to be able to do it instantly, it doesn't work that way.

I have never seen any game that has assists like what they are asking for, basically they want to have auto pilot for AAR, real jets don't have it.

[cfrag]

14 minutes ago, Furiz said:

they are lazy and spoiled and don't want to put any effort in it

Can we please close this thread? It has run it's course.