A/A refueling for trainees

[Dragon1-1]

That's getting fixed, hopefully. Eventually. At least for the S-3 and KC-130 (because they're making a Herc module). Yes, better 3D models would probably help a lot. Tankers should be high priority assets as far as graphics are concerned, IMO. You're going to spend a lot of time staring at those when trying to plug.

IMO, we don't need AAR assist, we need proper AAR tutorials. Only one module comes with one, and that's the Harrier. People would do a lot better if they got a similar mission in all AAR-capable modules. I'm expecting the Mudhen to also come with one, but there's been no indication of anyone else doing that. AAR is not difficult once you know what visual cues to use. Figuring out those cues, however, is another matter entirely. The Harrier mission tells you explicitly, hose over the mirror, gun cross between the engines. In Hornet and Tomcat you can aim pretty well with pitch ladder markings, but it's not obvious or stated anywhere.

[SharpeXB]

50 minutes ago, Nodak said:

It's hard to keep station on an aircraft that's basically little more than a low resolution blob.  There's more detail and easier flying the wing off a newer module single seater than trying to do it off a 135's wing.  How do you go about judging accurate distance and depth on a huge blob with nearly no detail?

The tanker is a blob to you at close range? 

[JCTherik]

3 hours ago, Exorcet said:

Possible assists:

-Extended boom

-Fuel auto transferred when X distance from tanker

-Autopilot

 

It's called cheats.

What you want is a cheat menu that allows you to refil tanks at will.

 

[JCTherik]

3 hours ago, Exorcet said:

We don't need or want incentives. How people play is up to them, not other people. We need options.

Options split the community, unless you can guarantee that it's single player only. But then, in singleplayer, you can edit the lua files or get some mod and do whatever you want anyway.

Since the community is very small, what we actually need is less options.

Edited May 4, 2023 by JCTherik

[Exorcet]

1 hour ago, JCTherik said:

 

It's called cheats.

What you want is a cheat menu that allows you to refil tanks at will.

 

Whatever you want to call it doesn't change anything.

1 hour ago, JCTherik said:

Options split the community, unless you can guarantee that it's single player only. But then, in singleplayer, you can edit the lua files or get some mod and do whatever you want anyway.

Since the community is very small, what we actually need is less options.

 

No, we need options. Just because someone might pick something different than you isn't a reason to restrict choices. The DCS community hasn't been shattered by the ability to turn off wake physics, or auto rudder, or anything else. And there is zero reason to divide because one person has as AAR assist on that everyone else can ignore completely.

[Furiz]

8 hours ago, Exorcet said:

As if AAR assist can't help you learn manual AAR.

It wont, cause with it you still don't have to hold formation which means you are not practicing precision flight which means when you turn AAR assist off you will be back at the beginning cause all that time you had it on you didn't practice your precision.

7 hours ago, Exorcet said:

-Players have to learn fuel management

They have to do it now too.

7 hours ago, Exorcet said:

-Players are encouraged to deal with tankers

Aren't they now?

7 hours ago, Exorcet said:

-Players still have to find (Briefing, Mission Planning, TACAN, radio) tankers

Same as previous one.

7 hours ago, Exorcet said:

Possible assists:

-Extended boom

-Fuel auto transferred when X distance from tanker

-Autopilot

See, that is not making someone learn precision flying with tanker, so how will someone then do it without that assist? When he magically gets fuel in, he just needs to come close and that's it, well unlimited fuel makes no difference.

you just proved my point thanks.

[cfrag]

12 hours ago, JCTherik said:

But if you don't put the time and effort into achieving proficiency required to do a hard task in the game, then you shouldn't be able to do the hard task in the game.

You couldn't be more wrong. It's a *game*, something you do for entertainment. You are supposed to have fun. Some have fun with challenges, others don't. If you have fun, fine. Don't tell others how to have fun.

Example: Some play XCOM on max difficulty; others play normal difficulty or easy. The game developers put in multiple difficulty modes for a reason: to broaden appeal, to make the game more accessible, to allow more people to have fun. What's it to you if I play on easy? It doesn't in any way change the way you play, even though we both finish the game. Because you can finish XCOM on easy, no-one in earnest claims that you should not be able to complete the game unless they play on max difficulty.

In games, there are always short-cuts. That's why they are called games. You may have noticed that in DCS you can fly a fighter jet without a valid medical, without wearing piddle-packs and gloves, and without holding a jet rating. Heck, I hear that they let people play DCS F/A-18 who don't have a complex rating, some players may not even have a pilot's license at all! Those are immense short cuts (no formal education in systems engineering, weather, flight dynamics, procedures, human factors, international law. Your body may not be suitable for air combat, and you may even be intoxicated while flying. Plus, you are likely not a member of a country's armed forces). So don't get picky about the small fry (accessibility) when you ignore the really big items. You are being handed the plane without the hard stuff. Don't pretend otherwise. You are playing a video game. Stop talking about "time and effort" unless you get paid.

[draconus]

34 minutes ago, cfrag said:

Stop talking about "time and effort" unless you get paid.

Please refrain from describing what kind of DCS game is when you don't even know what simulation is. Same to you @markom. The simulation starts and stops at user's own discretion. The user decides where and when it takes place. The simulation already includes all the prerequisites for the pilot - how he got into the aircraft, his health, managing the Gs, all his training and qualifications. Now the actions you do as the pilot depend entirely on your inputs. You want to trap on a carrier - you need to do it properly - prepare the aircraft, stay on-speed, line up on the GS and be precise enough to hit the deck. You want to engage in BVR fight you have to know how to operate the radar, prepare the missiles and modes, and finally take a shot. You want to AAR - you have to find the tanker, make radio calls and fly precise enough to make a connection. Every thing you want to do in this game needs some time and effort to do. Some are harder but then no one advertises them as a first thing a rookie can jump right into. But also no one forbids them trying.

Please also don't mistake simplified simulation or lack of simulated details with unrealistic game modes.

Edited May 4, 2023 by draconus

[cfrag]

Just now, draconus said:

Please refrain from describing what kind of DCS game is when you don't even know what simulation is

You know I always value your opinion. A simulation is "the modelling of a real or imagined process over time". That's it. You may be laboring under some misapprehensions here that I hope I helped to resolve. 

Just now, draconus said:

Every thing you want to do in this game needs some time and effort to do.

My apologies for being unclear. What I meant to say is that when you are playing a game, do not tell others how to play nor what effort they must put it to properly have fun. Of course, a literal look at what a living creature does while alive always requires energy, and happens over time: Time and effort. That was not what I meant, my apologies if that wasn't clear to you.

[draconus]

6 minutes ago, cfrag said:

What I meant to say is that when you are playing a game, do not tell others how to play nor what effort they must put it to properly have fun.

Ok, so I'm just pointing out anyone is free to do what they want if it's fun for them - be it take off from taxi routes, land USAF a/c on a carrier or shoot the tanker. But then the option for the proper actions is still there - Case I, take off by the book or actual AAR - it's not some elite skill while also not something crucial to succesfully enjoy DCS.

[cfrag]

Just now, draconus said:

the option for the proper actions is still there

Definitely, and it's what makes DCS so attractive to you and me. We can get lost over the country with a simulated outage of our nav systems, then use skills to pinpoint our location and still make a good approach on a carrier or airfield. Fun. It could be no fun at all to other people. The ability to optionally have help has incredible value to me. Start the sim on long final, no traffic, no wind, good visibility, all systems fine, and to hell with proper radio telephony rules. Or be lost in IMC with a troubled plane and enough fuel for a single approach. The choice should be yours. And if someone wants to activate some optional help for AAR, why the hell not? Anything that helps them to have fun, to better enjoy one of the best games I know.

[JCTherik]

1 hour ago, cfrag said:

You couldn't be more wrong. It's a *game*, something you do for entertainment. You are supposed to have fun. Some have fun with challenges, others don't. If you have fun, fine. Don't tell others how to have fun.

 

Then don't do the challenges, nobody's telling you you have to practice AAR. It's entirely up to you whether you do it or not.

What I do not enjoy is when challenges get removed.

Minecraft is a game, and you gotta kill a dragon in the end. What if minecraft added a button to skip killing the dragon and went straight to the "you won" page?

As you say, everybody should be able to do whatever they want right?

But that won't stop a large online multiplayer community AND the entire speedrunning community to be rightly upset about the decision to water down the final challenge of the game and turn it into a participation trophy.

 

As I said repeatedly before, if this automated AAR stayed strictly within the realm of singleplayer campaigns, I really wouldn't care at all, but that's not how any single difficulty setting in DCS works. There is not a single option in DCS, to my knowledge, that's limited to single-player only, so, assuming that this would go to the same menu as every other option, we're not really talking single-player only here.

If you want to keep this only in single-player, that would be something entirely new, and so you would have to explain how do you guarantee that it only stays within single-player.

 

If you add auto-AAR cheats in multiplayer, then you effectively remove the final challenge of DCS from the game, because doing AAR won't mean anything anymore. Everyone will be able to click a button and do it.

You will discredit the achievements of people who worked hard on the skill of AAR, you'll give free fuel to people who didn't actually learn how to fly the plane well and you will give an actual advantage to people who use the cheats, because people who do it by hand spend 5 minutes sweating, while the people who cheat it can spend 5 minutes scanning for enemies on the radar, have a stretch, if not a hop in the loo and get themselves ready for the next engagement.

 

It will also remove any reason for people to actually practice precision - why would they when the reward for precision has been removed?

1 hour ago, cfrag said:

Some play XCOM on max difficulty; others play normal difficulty or easy.

 

Varying difficulty is unacceptable in a multiplayer game.

46 minutes ago, cfrag said:

Fun. It could be no fun at all to other people.

Hold on. Do you yourself need the AAR cheats to refuel? Or can you do it? Because if you don't need AAR for yourself and you're just arguing on behalf of newcomers based on what you believe other players might want, then that's not really a fair representation. If you're not the target user of that feature, I don't think you should be asking for that feature.

 

 

[cfrag]

6 minutes ago, JCTherik said:

Then don't do the challenges, nobody's telling you you have to practice AAR. It's entirely up to you whether you do it or not

For the record: we are talking about optional helpers, and people who are against other people having this option.

7 minutes ago, JCTherik said:

What I do not enjoy is when challenges get removed.

Agreed. Nobody talks about this. We are talking about helpers for those who want it

 

10 minutes ago, JCTherik said:

If you add auto-AAR cheats in multiplayer, then you effectively remove the final challenge of DCS from the game

It's envisioned as an option for the server admin/mission designer. Let's leave it up for discussion what the 'final challenge' in DCS would be. Different things for different people.

13 minutes ago, JCTherik said:

You will discredit the achievements of people who worked hard on the skill of AAR

That would only apply to people who are so arrogant that they believe that others should hold them in awe because they can AAR. I don't give a rats behind about what other people think of my skills. I play so I have fun. I recommend others to do likewise and care less about how other people play.

16 minutes ago, JCTherik said:

There is not a single option in DCS, to my knowledge, that's limited to single-player only, so, assuming that this would go to the same menu as every other option, we're not really talking single-player only here.

For MP, we are talking about server options: have it available or not depends on the server owner. Like Map view etc. 

21 minutes ago, JCTherik said:

If you're not the target user of that feature, I don't think you should be asking for that feature.

Seriously? I can vehemently argue be for equal opportunities although I already have a great job. I can argue for better tutorials at class even though I already have my degree. And I have no problem to tell religious nuts that they must not withhold live-saving treatment from their children even though I don't believe in gods nor require the treatment. It's called empathy. The ability to understand and share the feelings and desires of others. It's an important social skill.

[JCTherik]

4 minutes ago, cfrag said:

Agreed. Nobody talks about this. We are talking about helpers for those who want it

If you add a button that lets you win minecraft without fighting the dragon, the dragon ceases to be a challenge.

 

Yes, cheat AAR does remove the challenge part from the AAR. It's not a challenge if you can do it with a press of a button.

6 minutes ago, cfrag said:

It's envisioned as an option for the server admin/mission designer.

Those kind of options split the community, and since there's barely enough people to fill a few servers, any sort of watering down of difficulty leads to everybody being forced to either play on empty servers, or play on servers that allow those cheats.

 

If there was 50k active users in multiplayer across thousands of servers, it would be a completely different story.

9 minutes ago, cfrag said:

Let's leave it up for discussion what the 'final challenge' in DCS would be.

Currently it's arguably AAR. Unless you come up with an even better challenge first, don't water down this one. End of story.

 

11 minutes ago, cfrag said:

That would only apply to people who are so arrogant that they believe that others should hold them in awe because they can AAR.

That's pretty thick if you need to call me arrogant.

I'm not in awe, and I don't think many players are, when they see someone refueling. But a "well done dude, you did it" is well deserved when someone refuels for the first time, it is a show of skill, a right of passage, it's been an iconic final boss of DCS for years, and there isn't anything else there in DCS like it.

I don't need to be admired for AAR, but I like to admire people's AAR skills.

I've seen people struggle hard for 40 minutes, learning refueling and then eventually successfully refueling, while on a keyboard.

Hats off to them. That is some dedication and I do think that deserves some admiration.

I've seen plenty of people struggle, struggle, struggle, then struggle the next day and next day, until eventually, they get "transfer complete".

It is a magic moment, and you know that from that point on, you and your buddy won't run out of fuel anymore. And that's his and your reward.

Do you think any of this would ever have a chance to happen if a full tank was but a button click away?

Enough with watering down of challenging tasks. Next you'd be asking for a fly by wire handling in every plane and an assist that holds your corner speed.

There are other games where those kinds of assists fit well. DCS has always been game where realism takes hard precedence over steepness of learning curve, and it is very unique in this way. Those kind of gameplay skipping assists have no place here.

21 minutes ago, cfrag said:

For MP, we are talking about server options: have it available or not depends on the server owner.

As I said before, this either fractures the already tiny community, or it forces people who want more realistic servers to choose between an empty server, or a populated but easy one.

 

22 minutes ago, cfrag said:

Seriously? I can vehemently argue be for equal opportunities although I already have a great job.

Except in this situation, you're not saving abused children here, so hold your horses there. All those people who struggle with AAR can come here on their own accounts and bring their own arguments and desires to the table.

It seems like the most active people arguing for AAR assists here are people who can already refuel, which pretty much disqualifies them from asking for an assist.

Why would you ask developers to spend their precious time on a feature you yourself would not even use? Unless you have an ulterior motive, and actually want to use the feature to park yourself next to a tanker as a way to "pause" a multiplayer game.

 

If you really want to help others, go teach people AAR. What most people need to be able to AAR is just an hour or so of practice, with somebody next to them saying "you got this bro, relax relax, you're getting better".

It's not too difficult for this task to be impossible, but it's just difficult enough so that you probably won't do it in your first week or even month of playing.

Those "assists", which actually aren't assists but straight up gameplay skips, don't make people better at refueling, but instead will take away the motivation for people to ever attempt to learn it.

[cfrag]

1 hour ago, JCTherik said:

Yes, cheat AAR does remove the challenge part from the AAR. It's not a challenge if you can do it with a press of a button.

So it's a motivational issue for you? Let's look at Golf. There is a cheat called 'handicap'. It allows players to start playing at lower skill levels (proficiency handicap 36). Once they achieve 36 and are allowed on the course, most players strive to become better, to reduce their handicap. If everyone were as you describe your issue with an AAR helper, nobody (except perhaps professionals) would go for lower handicap, everyone would stop as soon as they have reached handicap 36. But even if - why should you care? You play for yourself.

Yes, it would not be a challenge for you if you AAR by pressing a button. Again: you play for yourself. Only for yourself. Don't press the button! Unless you want to, that is. Who cares except yourself? Put differently: who's approval are you trying to win? Who are you trying to impress? Whose approval are you afraid to lose if anyone can AAR? Is that the problem?

In my mind, the only person you can cheat here is yourself. Why would I care if you pressed the button and cheated yourself out of a terrific experience? I certainly wouldn't think less of you. My appreciation of others doesn't hinge on how they can AAR, and I suspect you feel similarly. So let people be people and let them have fun whichever way they like - as long as you can have fun together.

Edited May 4, 2023 by cfrag

[Exorcet]

6 hours ago, Furiz said:

It wont, cause with it you still don't have to hold formation which means you are not practicing precision flight which means when you turn AAR assist off you will be back at the beginning cause all that time you had it on you didn't practice your precision.

This doesn't really make sense, unless you're also going to apply the same reasoning to everyone saying to practice flying formation in acrobatic servers, etc. You still need to fly formation with the tanker if the assist only something like an extension of the range of the refuel mechanism. It's not going to stretch for 100 miles, it's just going to expand the valid refuel box a bit beyond where it is now.

 

But even if the assist were to just fly for you completely, the player still has to manage fuel, find the tanker, join up with the tanker, contact the tanker, know the proper procedures (ie for F-16 open the refuel port early to depressurize tanks). So it would still facilitate learning. Not that this is even necessary for the feature to be considered of course, DCS is entertainment and not training software.

6 hours ago, Furiz said:

They have to do it now too.

Exactly, AAR assist doesn't take this away.

6 hours ago, Furiz said:

Aren't they now?

As above.

6 hours ago, Furiz said:

Same as previous one.

As above.

6 hours ago, Furiz said:

See, that is not making someone learn precision flying with tanker, so how will someone then do it without that assist? When he magically gets fuel in, he just needs to come close and that's it, well unlimited fuel makes no difference.

We just established that AAR assist does not remove fuel management or tanker form up and communication. And now you're arguing apparently that neither does unlimited fuel, so I guess whether fuel is limited or not also doesn't matter. I would disagree.

 

Now when it comes to learning how to refuel, having AAR assist means the player doesn't need to worry about needing to refuel in the mission, because with the assist, success rate should be high. So with this high success rate the player won't fear participating in missions with required AAR, in essence allowing every mission they participate in to involve AAR practice. Without the assist, they can't do this unless they're willing to only practice AAR. And of course, like I said before even if the assist flies the plane completely, that doesn't remove all the other components of AAR, which are still valid for practice.

You're also somehow ignoring that so long as the player has control over the plane, they can attempt to fly tight formation with the tanker. Just because your refueling box is larger than normal doesn't mean you have to automatically ignore the director lights or ignore the tanker itself as a reference. If people so desperately want to improve tanker competence, they should be asking for AAR assists to encourage players to practice more. It would be even better than trying to fly formation with random planes on free flight servers and more permissible for players that want to actually fly combat missions. You don't ask for AAR assist unless you want to AAR, pretty obviously.

 

  

3 hours ago, JCTherik said:

 

Then don't do the challenges, nobody's telling you you have to practice AAR. It's entirely up to you whether you do it or not.

What I do not enjoy is when challenges get removed.

So what's the problem? Here is the solution to your fear: don't use the assist. That's it. DCS remains totally unchanged for you.

I play DCS because it's realistic. DCS has options for autorudder, unlimited fuel, unlimited ammo, immortality. DCS even allows you to play the role of an omnipotent inhuman diety if you want to mess around with triggers (set up the F10 menu to automatically blow up the entire enemy force, you can do it in DCS).

Does any of this diminish the realism of DCS? Obviously no.

3 hours ago, JCTherik said:

Minecraft is a game, and you gotta kill a dragon in the end. What if minecraft added a button to skip killing the dragon and went straight to the "you won" page?

Completely fine. What's the problem?

3 hours ago, JCTherik said:

But that won't stop a large online multiplayer community AND the entire speedrunning community to be rightly upset about the decision to water down the final challenge of the game and turn it into a participation trophy.

People are going to be upset? Over what? Some random person somewhere pressed a button and skipped the game? Players have no reason to care.

Did I mention that DCS has a win button? I outlined how to make it above. Also the DCS campaign now features a skip mission button, you know a win button if you can't be bothered to play a mission in a campaign. It doesn't press itself though, so it's not ruining your experience is it?

3 hours ago, JCTherik said:

As I said repeatedly before, if this automated AAR stayed strictly within the realm of singleplayer campaigns, I really wouldn't care at all,

This only makes it more confusing why speedrunners would care in Minecraft, but moving on

3 hours ago, JCTherik said:

but that's not how any single difficulty setting in DCS works. There is not a single option in DCS, to my knowledge, that's limited to single-player only, so, assuming that this would go to the same menu as every other option, we're not really talking single-player only here.

All of this, doesn't even really matter because an AAR assist would be personal. Like autorudder. Someone turning on autorudder doesn't enforce for the entire server. There is no risk here, at all.

3 hours ago, JCTherik said:

If you add auto-AAR cheats in multiplayer, then you effectively remove the final challenge of DCS from the game, because doing AAR won't mean anything anymore. Everyone will be able to click a button and do it.

And now AAR is the final challenge of DCS apparently. I don't want to wrongly accuse people of bias or anything, but this just sounds totally biased. AAR is just one of many things you can do in DCS. It's not "the final challenge" it's not some sacred right of passage for sim pilots.

Just let people play the game.

3 hours ago, JCTherik said:

You will discredit the achievements of people who worked hard on the skill of AAR

No, I don't care. Let people use the assist, has no effect on me and my AAR skill. In fact in benefits me by making AAR in missions less of a concern when mission building. As someone who worked to learn AAR, I have absolutely no argument against the assist.

3 hours ago, JCTherik said:

you'll give free fuel to people who didn't actually learn how to fly the plane well

There is more to flying than AAR.

3 hours ago, JCTherik said:

and you will give an actual advantage to people who use the cheats, because people who do it by hand spend 5 minutes sweating, while the people who cheat it can spend 5 minutes scanning for enemies on the radar, have a stretch, if not a hop in the loo and get themselves ready for the next engagement.

You're supposed to turn the radar off so as not to fry your tanker crew. And it's not like manually flying prevents you from looking down or listening to AWACS.

3 hours ago, JCTherik said:

It will also remove any reason for people to actually practice precision - why would they when the reward for precision has been removed?

Because you want to learn. The ultimate motivation. Much more effective than learn this because someone else says so.

3 hours ago, JCTherik said:

Varying difficulty is unacceptable in a multiplayer game.

Yet it's in many games. So apparently not?

3 hours ago, JCTherik said:

Hold on. Do you yourself need the AAR cheats to refuel? Or can you do it? Because if you don't need AAR for yourself and you're just arguing on behalf of newcomers based on what you believe other players might want, then that's not really a fair representation. If you're not the target user of that feature, I don't think you should be asking for that feature.

Then the people arguing against it should not be posting in the thread.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Exorcet

[JCTherik]

22 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

You still need to fly formation with the tanker if the assist only something like an extension of the range of the refuel mechanism.

Ok, despite me being against any of this, I still have to throw you an olive branch and say that expanded boom box is a lot less intrusive than AAR autopilot or wireless fuel transfer.

On the other hand, howbout instead of trying to use an imprecise stick movements to maneuver the plane into a bigger box, we use a more precise stick movement to get it to a smaller box?

What I mean by that, if the assist is in a form of "precision flying button" that instantly adjusts your stick curves and gives you +90 curve on all axes, plus it reduces the range of your throttle to, say +/- 15% throttle around your current position, so that you can make bigger throttle and stick movements, but get much more precise results... ? And once you get done refueling, you click it again and you're back in full range.

The end result is the same, makes refueling easier, but one teaches the players the proper position and reference cues, the other doesn't.

 

30 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

in essence allowing every mission they participate in to involve AAR practice.

Not with AAR autopilot or wireless fuel transfer, because there's nothing to practice about pressing an autopilot button.

 

31 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

And of course, like I said before even if the assist flies the plane completely, that doesn't remove all the other components of AAR, which are still valid for practice

\, F6, F1. There, that's the practice of the comms.

Navigation, well, since most easy servers have F10 map, I doubt you're gonna get much navigation practice either.

Formation flying is the part that requires practice, the rest of the procedure requires reading the manual once.

 

38 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

You don't ask for AAR assist unless you want to AAR, pretty obviously.

Well, apparently, both you and cfrag do ask for AAR assists without really wanting to do AAR using those assists.

I don't know why does the most vocal demand of AAR assist in last few days come from two people who can already refuel and thus don't need to use it, but it makes your sentence pretty hilariously wrong.

 

[SharpeXB]

59 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

You still need to fly formation with the tanker if the assist only something like an extension of the range of the refuel mechanism. It's not going to stretch for 100 miles, it's just going to expand the valid refuel box a bit beyond where it is now.

The problem with this idea is that the player can’t see where this imaginary box is. If it’s too large then it doesn’t do much to train anyone. If it’s smaller they’ll get frustrated disconnecting for no apparent reason. 
 

@JCTherik ditto to everything you said. Yes this is a game but it’s a competitive game in many aspects and that means aids and assists need to be server/ mission settings and that divides up the player base. There are too many of these settings already for the small number of players here. 

Edited May 4, 2023 by SharpeXB

[Ironhand]

4 hours ago, JCTherik said:

…What I do not enjoy is when challenges get removed…

Out of curiosity, which challenge would be taken away from you that would reduce your enjoyment?

[SharpeXB]

3 minutes ago, Ironhand said:

Out of curiosity, which challenge would be taken away from you that would reduce your enjoyment?

If Auto AAR was added to a server you’re flying on, all the time you spent mastering this would have no purpose. Your accomplishment has been taken away. It would be like practicing and learning the cold start only to go online and find all the aircraft started already. And in this small game there probably wouldn’t be the option to choose a server with your preferences. 

Edited May 4, 2023 by SharpeXB

[Exorcet]

19 minutes ago, JCTherik said:

Ok, despite me being against any of this, I still have to throw you an olive branch and say that expanded boom box is a lot less intrusive than AAR autopilot or wireless fuel transfer.

On the other hand, howbout instead of trying to use an imprecise stick movements to maneuver the plane into a bigger box, we use a more precise stick movement to get it to a smaller box?

What I mean by that, if the assist is in a form of "precision flying button" that instantly adjusts your stick curves and gives you +90 curve on all axes, plus it reduces the range of your throttle to, say +/- 15% throttle around your current position, so that you can make bigger throttle and stick movements, but get much more precise results... ? And once you get done refueling, you click it again and you're back in full range.

The end result is the same, makes refueling easier, but one teaches the players the proper position and reference cues, the other doesn't.

Sure, why not. There are many many ways to approach this. Even multiple assists could be added hypothetically. It all depends on what people want and what their preferences are.

19 minutes ago, JCTherik said:

Not with AAR autopilot or wireless fuel transfer, because there's nothing to practice about pressing an autopilot button.

 

\, F6, F1. There, that's the practice of the comms.

Navigation, well, since most easy servers have F10 map, I doubt you're gonna get much navigation practice either.

Formation flying is the part that requires practice, the rest of the procedure requires reading the manual once.

You've never, when learning AAR, overshot the tanker? Or perhaps fumbled with some of the controls early on (where is the refuel door switch, etc)? Or forgot to set the radio to the proper channel? It's all worth practicing. Remember, checklists aren't just for beginners. They're intended to be used by even the most experienced people so that consistency is maintained. It's worth practicing the entire AAR process, not just spawning behind the tanker.

 

The F10 map is irrelevant. You're not forced to use it.

19 minutes ago, JCTherik said:

Well, apparently, both you and cfrag do ask for AAR assists without really wanting to do AAR using those assists.

Mainly, I reply in response to arguments against because I feel they tend to distort the argument or make little sense. However yes I do feel like the assist is an overall good thing to add to DCS even if I won't use it. I make missions to share and I know that people are divided on AAR. If there was an assist that would guarantee a high rate of universal AAR success, I could freely add refueling in any mission of mine.

19 minutes ago, JCTherik said:

I don't know why does the most vocal demand of AAR assist in last few days come from two people who can already refuel and thus don't need to use it, but it makes your sentence pretty hilariously wrong.

 

I don't see how my statement is wrong. DCS has unlimited fuel. If you don't want to AAR, use that. An AAR assist only makes sense if you want to interact with a tanker.

  

8 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The problem with this idea is that the player can’t see where this imaginary box is. If it’s too large then it doesn’t do much to train anyone. If it’s smaller they’ll get frustrated disconnecting for no apparent reason.

Why would the box be smaller than it already is? The box is there in the first place - it's the limits of the boom/hose.

It being invisible, as it already is, doesn't matter. That just gets the player to focus on existing references like tanker lights or the tanker itself.

8 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

 

@JCTherik ditto to everything you said. Yes this is a game but it’s a competitive game in many aspects and that means aids and assists need to be server/ mission settings and that divides up the player base. There are too many of these settings already for the small number of players here. 

 

This game isn't competitive. Servers can be setup to be competitive, but that's a server by server choice. DCS is an entertainment product that aims to reach a wide-ish audience. Options are only natural is this case. AAR assist also isn't even a concern for division. It would be a personal setting. If you don't like it, don't use it.

 

  

1 minute ago, SharpeXB said:

If Auto AAR was added to a server you’re flying on, all the time you spent mastering this would have no purpose. Your accomplishment has been taken away. It would be like practicing and learning the cold start only to go online and find all the aircraft started already. And in this game there probably wouldn’t be the option to choose a server with your preferences. 

 

How? I still have my ability to AAR. Why would I care that people use assists? Does autorudder invalidate your flight pedal purchase? Are they now worthless? Do dogfights suddenly lose all sense of engagement? If so, if assists that others use without impacting your game somehow devalue your experience, that is beyond bizarre.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Exorcet

[cfrag]

9 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

If Auto AAR was added to a server you’re flying on, all the time you spent mastering this would have no purpose. Your accomplishment has been taken away.

Why? You can still do it like you did before. Why is it taken away? And what purpose? Didn't you learn to AAR for your own satisfaction, to prove to yourself that you can do it? It's not your bragging rights that you are afraid to lose, how you think that you might look in other peoples eyes, right? Because that would totally go away, and I'm hoping that most people here are not that petty.

Edited May 4, 2023 by cfrag

[JCTherik]

1 hour ago, Exorcet said:

4 hours ago, JCTherik said:

You will discredit the achievements of people who worked hard on the skill of AAR

No, I don't care.

I do care though.

Some people I fly with are now in the process of learning AAR, doing better after every hour of formations, invested lot of time and effort on trying stay calm, adjusting their setup to be just right and just plain learning the aerodynamic behaviour of their airplanes. I'd say it would be pretty huge slap in the face if tomorrow, that reward for the challenge would just be given to everybody for free.

Plenty of people feel that way.

1 hour ago, Exorcet said:

I have absolutely no argument against the assist.

I and other people do though.

 

1 hour ago, Exorcet said:

You're supposed to turn the radar off so as not to fry your tanker crew.

Sadly, that's not implemented, and as with any feature that gives a competitive advantage, this will get abused.

 

1 hour ago, Exorcet said:

Much more effective than learn this because someone else says so.

Nobody's saying you must do AAR, it's still the same as it's always have been. Learn AAR and you'll get a full tank of fuel at 30k feet. It's a take it or leave it transaction.

 

Why aren't you asking for automatic landing, automatic takeoff automatic taxi and automatic PVE autopilot too?

 

Would that be a step too far for you? Perhaps you too don't want to play on servers where 90% of the people aren't actually playing the game.

 

1 hour ago, Exorcet said:

4 hours ago, JCTherik said:

Varying difficulty is unacceptable in a multiplayer game.

Yet it's in many games. So apparently not?

Which competitive game have varying difficulty that's forced on people who don't want it?

 

1 hour ago, Exorcet said:

Then the people arguing against it should not be posting in the thread.

I explained multiple times why and how does this affect me.

You still haven't explained how does this affect you or why do you care.

The only thing I can understand would be if you're a campaign designer and you want a built-in way to optionally skip AAR purely in single missions only, only as a part of a campaign.

[SharpeXB]

Just now, cfrag said:

Why? You can still do it like you did before. Why is it taken away? What purpose? Didn't you learn to AAR for your own satisfaction, to prove to yourself that you can do it? It's not your bragging rights that you are afraid to lose, how you think that you might look in other peoples eyes, right? Because that would totally go away, and I'm hoping that most people here are not that petty.

Again it makes doing AAR completely pointless as a game skill if there’s an easy button that does the same thing. 

[cfrag]

2 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Again it makes doing AAR completely pointless as a game skill if there’s an easy button that does the same thing. 

OK, that I completely do not understand. It's a game. The entire reason to play is that it's pointless, it has no consequences. Don't you relish completing a pointless task like killing mock tanks? If not, then why play at all? everything you do in DCS is pointless, except to entertain you.

 

Edited May 4, 2023 by cfrag