A/A refueling for trainees

[Exorcet]

21 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

All difficulty settings in multiplayer need to apply to everyone. That’s how all games including DCS are. Everyone expects that. 

Not in DCS where you can turn on auto rudder, or fly FC3 planes against full fidelity ones, or set radio to simple mode.

Nor is it how it works in other games which offer assists to make it easier for some players

 

[SharpeXB]

52 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

Not in DCS where you can turn on auto rudder, or fly FC3 planes against full fidelity ones, or set radio to simple mode.

Auto Rudder should be a server setting although it’s probably there for keyboard players. I think simple radio is a setting but that’s doesn’t affect gameplay really, it can affect missions scripting if that’s used. And the FC3 planes are on their way out of DCS. 
But Auto AAR is almost akin to giving players unlimited fuel. 

[Wrcknbckr]

1 hour ago, Exorcet said:

Not in DCS where you can turn on auto rudder, or fly FC3 planes against full fidelity ones, or set radio to simple mode.

Nor is it how it works in other games which offer assists to make it easier for some players

 

 

 

Aim assist in shooters are meant to aid console players as opposed to keyboard players. Not comparable. 

Shifting assist in racing cars is not beneficial since in manual assists you can rev up more and gain more speed. 

Both not applicable to compare assists in DCS. Current assists in DCS are either procedural (auto start up), easy to implement and needed to prevent 'boring' tasks. The other assist such as autorudder are meant to overcome hardware deficiencies. In no form you will find assist to help flying skills (luckily). 

Edited May 4, 2023 by Wrcknbckr

[MAXsenna]

Perhaps this could be a solution for those having difficulties with AAR, yet still want to be able to somewhat experience from the cockpit what it's like:
 
 

Not a bad idea, except I'm not sure if it would help sitting in the backseat.

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[MAXsenna]

Now, if you allowed just anyone to AAR, this feeling of superiority would crumble, dealing a blow to their self-esteem.
I know - but that's why this AAR 'feat' is so jealously guarded. 
 

I disagree. Truly believe that most people actually want people to succeed, to get that feeling of accomplishment, because it's really nothing like it in this game.

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[draconus]

32 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

And the FC3 planes are on their way out of DCS.

Source?

[SharpeXB]

22 minutes ago, draconus said:

Source?

They’re supposed to become Modern Air Combat eventually aren’t they? It is odd that they’re in DCS along with the full fidelity planes but they filled a niche and still do. I understand there won’t be any more of them though. 

[draconus]

42 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

They’re supposed to become Modern Air Combat eventually aren’t they?

Nothing is official and the info is as old as 5 years. FC3 is here to stay.

[bfr]

1 hour ago, Wrcknbckr said:

Aim assist in shooters are meant to aid console players as opposed to keyboard players. Not comparable. 

Shifting assist in racing cars is not beneficial since in manual assists you can rev up more and gain more speed. 

Both not applicable to compare assists in DCS. Current assists in DCS are either procedural (auto start up), easy to implement and needed to prevent 'boring' tasks. The other assist such as autorudder are meant to overcome hardware deficiencies. In no form you will find assist to help flying skills (luckily). 

 

Going off the rest of that list of car game assists pictured, there's a few of them i've used at one time or another in a few titles (line assists, ABS, degrees of traction/stability assists) until i'd improved my skills (because I wanted to) to the point I no longer needed them (whilst still being able to enjoy the game without binning it every half a lap).  Just because a kid might get training wheels on their first bike, it doesn't mean they'll want or need to ride with them their entire life.

[SharpeXB]

13 minutes ago, bfr said:

Just because a kid might get training wheels on their first bike, it doesn't mean they'll want or need to ride with them their entire life.

None of the suggested assist options asked for here would help train anyone though. Having your plane fly by itself of magically fill with fuel doesn’t help the learning curve. You could practice AAR without any of these features. 

Edited May 4, 2023 by SharpeXB

[markom]

My kid learned how to ride without ever using training wheels (fact). I think therefore that training wheels are useless, make kids less able to learn, and they should henceforth be banned, and all parents who use them declared lazy-ass to teach their kids properly. Kids are awful too.

THAT is how "no assists" arguments sounds like.

Edited May 4, 2023 by markom

[bfr]

14 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

None of the suggested assist options asked for here would help train anyone though. Having your plane fly by itself of magically fill with fuel doesn’t help the learning curve. You could practice AAR without any of these features. 

 

The 'forgiving basket/boom' kind of idea would still necessitate learning some 'gateway' skills of locating the tanker, radio calls, getting in some semblance of position (i'm not suggesting you can just hit a button from half a mile away and/or fly by a tanker at +100 kts and magically hook up). Once you've mastered the first part you can then have a couple of cracks and if it still isn't happening for you that time then you have the option to chicken out and not completely bin the mission you're trying to enjoy.

[SharpeXB]

16 minutes ago, markom said:

My kid learned how to ride without ever using training wheels (fact). I think therefore that training wheels are useless, make kids less able to learn, and they should henceforth be banned, and all parents who use them declared lazy-ass to teach their kids properly. Kids are awful too.

THAT is how "no assists" arguments sounds like.

 

The proposed assists wouldn’t help train anyone. I can’t imagine way for the game to handhold you like a kid on a bicycle. 

[BIGNEWY]

better basket and fuel line physics will help I am sure, but it is something for the future. 

you will all need to remain patient for this however. 

 

[SharpeXB]

2 minutes ago, bfr said:

The 'forgiving basket/boom' kind of idea would still necessitate learning some 'gateway' skills of locating the tanker, radio calls, getting in some semblance of position (i'm not suggesting you can just hit a button from half a mile away and/or fly by a tanker at +100 kts and magically hook up). Once you've mastered the first part you can then have a couple of cracks and if it still isn't happening for you that time then you have the option to chicken out and not completely bin the mission you're trying to enjoy.

You can practice without that though. What does it matter if you artificially start taking fuel when you’re not connected? You can fly missions with unlimited fuel if you think you can’t complete an AAR. 

[bfr]

9 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

You can practice without that though. What does it matter if you artificially start taking fuel when you’re not connected? You can fly missions with unlimited fuel if you think you can’t complete an AAR. 

As others have mentioned before, you miss out on aircraft handling changes with changes in fuel load and it can also make you lazy and use reheat more than you reasonably should be doing. So in those ways 'unlimited fuel' as an alternative is an un-learning aid.  Its just making arguably the hardest bit (unless you're having a crack at formation aerobatics) a bit more forgiving and letting those who find it a tough nut to crack have a safety net whilst learning.

Edited May 4, 2023 by bfr

[SharpeXB]

6 minutes ago, bfr said:

As others have mentioned before, you miss out on aircraft handling changes with changes in fuel load and it can also make you lazy and use reheat more than you reasonably should be doing. So in those ways 'unlimited fuel' as an alternative is an un-learning aid.  Its just making arguably the hardest bit (unless you're having a crack at formation aerobatics) a bit more forgiving and letting those who find it a tough nut to crack have a safety net whilst learning.

 

The change in fuel weight during AAR doesn’t affect your handling very much at all. If you get it figured out an you’re all dialed in it wouldn’t matter if the tanker flew upside down you’ll just stay stuck to it. 

[bfr]

2 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The change in fuel weight during AAR doesn’t affect your handling very much at all. If you get it figured out an you’re all dialed in it wouldn’t matter if the tanker flew upside down you’ll just stay stuck to it. 

I was more on about the change in handling over the course of an entire mission rather than in AAR. And like I said, the luxury of unlimited gas is a gateway back into other bad habits. 

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, bfr said:

Going off the rest of that list of car game assists pictured, there's a few of them i've used at one time or another in a few titles (line assists, ABS, degrees of traction/stability assists) until i'd improved my skills

To bring up racing. First a lot of those are actual car features like ABS and traction control, not aids like the racing line. 
 

But what I find amusing about this AAR discussion and speaking of sim racing… racing is so much more difficult than flying! A race is like a 30-40 minute AAR session that never lets up. Try that and come back to flying which is easy and you watch pretty clouds float by you’ll realize AAR just isn’t so tough as far as sim games go. 

2 minutes ago, bfr said:

I was more on about the change in handling over the course of an entire mission rather than in AAR. And like I said, the luxury of unlimited gas is a gateway back into other bad habits. 

But flying with unlimited fuel doesn’t prevent anyone from trying AAR during a mission. So why is an assist needed?

[bfr]

Just now, SharpeXB said:

To bring up racing. First a lot of those are actual car features like ABS and traction control, not aids like the racing line. 

But what I find amusing about this AAR discussion and speaking of sim racing… racing is so much more difficult than flying! A race is like a 30-40 minute AAR session that never lets up. Try that and come back to flying which is easy and you watch pretty clouds float by you’ll realize AAR just isn’t so tough as far as sim games go. 

Except this is ABS and traction control on cars that don't have them in real life (e.g. F1 cars), so in that context they are an optional artificial aid added to make the game easier.

Each to their own but i've put quite a lot of time into AAR, still mostly suck at it and I'd say its a harder skill to master than driving 10-20 laps at a reasonable lick without binning it. Less axes of travel to manage for one thing (unless things go really badly) and acceleration/deceleration is a lot more responsive.

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, bfr said:

Each to their own but i've put quite a lot of time into AAR, still mostly suck at it and I'd say its a harder skill to master than driving 10-20 laps at a reasonable lick without binning it. Less axes of travel to manage for one thing (unless things go really badly) and acceleration/deceleration is a lot more responsive.

My eureka moment was realizing the plane was no different than my car I drive every day. How is it I can “fly formation” behind the car in front of me in traffic but not in DCS? But I can… aha. 
Right. The throttle has a lag in the jet compared to your car. So realize that and anticipate it. But it’s the same sort of control. 

Edited May 5, 2023 by SharpeXB

[Exorcet]

5 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Auto Rudder should be a server setting although it’s probably there for keyboard players. I think simple radio is a setting but that’s doesn’t affect gameplay really, it can affect missions scripting if that’s used. And the FC3 planes are on their way out of DCS. 
But Auto AAR is almost akin to giving players unlimited fuel. 

Autorudder doesn't turn off when you have rudder pedals. It's not for keyboard users, and it's like it would matter if it were. Anyone can use it.

 

OK but if you need proof of an a setting designed for inexperienced players, and not just keyboard users for whatever reason, here is some text from the MiG-21 manual:

 

Quote

 

SIMPLIFIED ENGINE MANAGEMENT - If this option is selected, in-flight engine failures and shutdown

due to any kind of stress will be prevented. Engine shutdown can be a frequent event for

inexperienced players. Every time the engine stops in the air, you will have to attempt to relight it.

Note that you have a limited number of restart attempts. Restarting the engine in the air can be

complicated or even impossible in some circumstances.

 

 

As assist designed to make things easier for inexperienced players.

5 hours ago, Wrcknbckr said:

Aim assist in shooters are meant to aid console players as opposed to keyboard players. Not comparable. 

Shifting assist in racing cars is not beneficial since in manual assists you can rev up more and gain more speed. 

Both not applicable to compare assists in DCS. Current assists in DCS are either procedural (auto start up), easy to implement and needed to prevent 'boring' tasks. The other assist such as autorudder are meant to overcome hardware deficiencies. In no form you will find assist to help flying skills (luckily). 

 

They are directly comparable. As assist is an assist, it's exactly the same situation as in DCS: Give a player assistance at something they might have difficulty doing on their own. But if the intent is all that matters, well let's just say AAR assist is intended for keyboard users. Would it now suddenly be OK to have in DCS? The poster above apparently thinks autorudder is for keyboard users even when it works just as well with rudder pedals, so there shouldn't be a problem I guess.

3 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

None of the suggested assist options asked for here would help train anyone though. Having your plane fly by itself of magically fill with fuel doesn’t help the learning curve. You could practice AAR without any of these features. 

 

How the assists help training have been explained many times. Here is just one example:

  

7 hours ago, Exorcet said:

I'd say that the training merit of a few options are under represented. AAR is not a single task but a series of tasks.

 

Autopilot allows one to practice all the non flying aspects. It also has to be turned on, if it's a button press. Meaning that a player can make manual attempts before resorting to pressing the button. This alone expands the amount of missions they can play and likely increases the amount of practice they will put in.

"Cheap" and "cheaty" don't really mean anything here. It's not cheating if it's not against the rules.

Lastly as someone who AAR's manually, this is certainly not a slap in the face. I have exactly zero concern over people getting to refuel while putting in less effort than me.

 

What you called Wireless AAR and More Forgiving Box are basically the same thing. These are excellent training tools because the player can approach them exactly as they would fully manual AAR all while not having to worry about the consequence of failure (as much). A larger refueling box doesn't stop the player from trying to respect the tanker lights, and if they're doing that, they are basically practicing full manual. Learning is about being willing to learn more than anything else.

 

 

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

You can practice without that though. What does it matter if you artificially start taking fuel when you’re not connected? You can fly missions with unlimited fuel if you think you can’t complete an AAR. 

You can practice AAR with an assist. It's obvious that you can practice without, but that doesn't matter.

Flying missions with unlimited fuel is totally different and also can't be used to learn AAR.

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

To bring up racing. First a lot of those are actual car features like ABS and traction control, not aids like the racing line. 
 

But what I find amusing about this AAR discussion and speaking of sim racing… racing is so much more difficult than flying! A race is like a 30-40 minute AAR session that never lets up. Try that and come back to flying which is easy and you watch pretty clouds float by you’ll realize AAR just isn’t so tough as far as sim games go. 

But flying with unlimited fuel doesn’t prevent anyone from trying AAR during a mission. So why is an assist needed?

Those features are assists in the real world. They're still assists. And in games they can be applied in race series where they are banned in order to assist drivers in controlling the cars. OK, but if for some reason an assist being a real world assist matters let's focus on the non real world ones like racing lines, auto clutch, friction force, etc. Why are you ignoring these?

I don't know if you've done sim racing, but I've driven multiple hour long races and driving isn't that hard. AAR took more practice. Maybe what's difficult and what's not is a personal thing.

Lastly, again, having AAR assists doesn't prevent anyone from trying to AAR during a mission, but it can encourage them to get better at AAR or participate in missions they otherwise wouldn't confidently join. Hence the desire for an assist.

[SharpeXB]

7 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

Autorudder doesn't turn off when you have rudder pedals. It's not for keyboard users, and it's like it would matter if it were.

Auto Rudder is literally for players who don’t have rudder controls. It’s to make up for hardware deficiency not as an aid. 

[SharpeXB]

17 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

How the assists help training have been explained many times. Here is just one example:

You just provided a link to your own post. That’s hilarious. And you’re not making any sense. Watching your plane fly by itself or magically fill up has zero training value. 

[SharpeXB]

27 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

You can practice AAR with an assist. It's obvious that you can practice without

Right. You can practice AAR without your plane magically filling itself up or flying itself. So why have this cheat? That’s not helping you practice, it’s just a shortcut. 

30 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

having AAR assists doesn't prevent anyone from trying to AAR during a mission

Niether does selecting unlimited fuel. So no new features are needed. 

31 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

I've driven multiple hour long races and driving isn't that hard. AAR took more practice.

That’s funny you say this. Yes a race could be an hour or even longer, requiring work, focus and concentration the entire time. AAR just takes a few minutes.