correct as is F16 Still Underperforming

[MARLAN_]

5 minutes ago, darkman222 said:

Of course I have an F16 badge here, thats why I am arguing in the F16 forum and not in the F18 subforum. lol.

I initially was only talking about F-18 paddle usage not actually being an advantage and things went off on a tangent, although just because I have a F-18 badge doesn't inherently make me biased. I just want DCS to be as realistic as it can be.

6 minutes ago, darkman222 said:

Have a nice day at work.

Thank you!

[darkman222]

1 minute ago, MARLAN_ said:

I just want DCS to be as realistic as it can be

Everybody does. Which is a good thing, because it creates discussions and shows ED where the interest of their customers is attracted to.

[MARLAN_]

33 minutes ago, gortex said:

In the end, the single accomplishment of this thread has been to demonstrate who spends time doing guns-only BFM and who doesn't.

If you're implying me, I've done probably thousands of dog fights, many of which with 2 different real F-18 pilots. But maybe you weren't referring to me.

[darkman222]

Cant speak for whom he was referring to, but maybe you should have done it with two F16 pilots, who fly an energy fighter, instead of F18 pilots, who fly a radius fighter. I hope that at least these two guys know the difference.

Didnt you wanna go to work btw?

[MARLAN_]

6 minutes ago, darkman222 said:

Cant speak for whom he was referring to, but maybe you should have done it with two F16 pilots, who fly an energy fighter, instead of F18 pilots, who fly a radius fighter. I hope that at least these two guys know the difference.

Didnt you wanna go to work btw?

You really gotta stop being so adversarial. My only point is that I'm not clueless when it comes to BFM as it appeared gortex was implying. Also, BFM concepts apply to all aircraft, the way you fight the jet is different based on its strengths and weaknesses but knowing how to fight the F-18 doesn't make you clueless in fighting the F-16.

I am working, but I work from home so I still have my PC. But I do need to stop wasting time on this adversarial discussion. There seems to be no benefit to this discussion anymore.

[wilbur81]

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/317116-praise-for-legacy-hornet/

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/296724-paddle-switch-disable-option-in-mp/

Edited June 9, 2023 by wilbur81

[Aquorys]

In my opinion, there are two simple solutions to the "problem":

1. Make stuff break in the F/A-18 if people pull significantly more than 7.5G, and probably make it a bit unpredictable too, so there can't be a table that says it always breaks after 3.3 seconds under 8.1G
2. If you want the gameplay to be more realistic, maybe do something else than WWII style gun-fights in an otherwise empty aircraft with no mission. Most real missions are air-to-ground, and hardly any of the few air-to-air engagements that happen nowadays are 5 minute around-the-circle 9G rate fights that end with gun kills. That kind of mission isn't realistic in the first place, so the question whether the aircraft need to be changed to perform more realistically in an unrealistic mission to improve the realism of the game seems somewhat academic to me

 

[Gungho]

On 6/4/2023 at 5:59 PM, GGTharos said:

You said 'hold', this is at least ps=0 in my interpretation

Do you mean the maximum g attained?

As for BFM, I disagree.  The F-16 has a significant rate advantage if you play your game right.  It's hard for an eagle or hornet pilot to compete with that, and it's more than decent in the vertical as well.  If missiles are involved things change a bit but not that much.

Best rate fighter My butt. Im constantly getting outrated by the f18. Doesn't matter what speed i hold or how i manage energy. 

[St4RgAz3R]

26 minutes ago, Gungho said:

Best rate fighter My butt. Im constantly getting outrated by the f18. Doesn't matter what speed i hold or how i manage energy. 

Same here . Holding anything below 420 knots at ground level the f18 will outrate you. Only when you hold about 430-440 knots you actually can outrate it but the pilot of the f16 will blackout in a matter of seconds

[wilbur81]

19 hours ago, St4RgAz3R said:

Same here . Holding anything below 420 knots at ground level the f18 will outrate you. Only when you hold about 430-440 knots you actually can outrate it but the pilot of the f16 will blackout in a matter of seconds

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/296724-paddle-switch-disable-option-in-mp/

[darkman222]

I also posted in that mentioned thread some time ago. because I am annoyed by the paddle pulling F18s too. But unfortunately the paddle is a minor issue here. Its the F15, F14 over-G-ing too. You simply dont have a cheat mode in the F16. And if it there were a limiter override or whatever F16 dudes would do the same as the F18.

There was a folds of honor tournament, where realistic G limits were enforced. And guess what, no 15G F14 in the higher ranks any more. But incredibly hard to enforce those G limits, even in a tournament environment.

The only realistic option to consider for the F16 is re-evaluating if the energy bleed rate is correct, and no I dont mean the turn rate. And to make the DCS F16 pilot qualified to fly the F16.

The rest is what I would call realistic flying, which nobody will do on a dogfight server.

 

Edited June 13, 2023 by darkman222

[skywalker22]

19 hours ago, St4RgAz3R said:

Same here . Holding anything below 420 knots at ground level the f18 will outrate you. Only when you hold about 430-440 knots you actually can outrate it but the pilot of the f16 will blackout in a matter of seconds

  

20 hours ago, Gungho said:

Best rate fighter My butt. Im constantly getting outrated by the f18. Doesn't matter what speed i hold or how i manage energy. 

When missiles are involved: How will you hold 400+knots in a 1-circle fight? No one will go 2-circle against F-16, at least not anyone who knows what's all about. So we better start talking 1-circle fight and speeds up to 300knots (maybe a tad over), but most of the time speed between 200 and 300 knots. And now we are where? No where near what F-16 prefers, right?

So no wonder why F/A-18 is out rating F-16, and without the paddles, since speeds are so low, that there are practically no Gs.

Edited June 13, 2023 by skywalker22

[Noctrach]

Tbh I think proper G tolerance modeling would go an enormous way already.

Model some difference in suits, seats and stamina between the various aircraft. Model smooth G increases vs peaks. It doesn't have to be elaborate or complicated, but it would already make such a massive difference in how dogfights are played in DCS.

You're just not gonna be holding G forever, no matter how reclined your seat is. Suffer a couple minutes of rating around at 7+Gs and fatigue will start setting in hard. Pull an instant 9-10G and you're not gonna stay awake for very long.

Some of the other combat sims can already give you examples of how fights like that play out. It's more about energy/angles management and less about horizontal rating on the deck at the speed of stupid.

[Cab]

21 minutes ago, darkman222 said:

I also posted in that mentioned thread some time ago. because I am annoyed by the paddle pulling F18s too. But unfortunately the paddle is a minor issue here. Its the F15, F14 over-G-ing too. You simply dont have a cheat mode in the F16. And if it there were a limiter override or whatever F16 dudes would do the same as the F18.

This

Also, nice fighting you yesterday, darkman222

[Cab]

29 minutes ago, Noctrach said:

Tbh I think proper G tolerance modeling would go an enormous way already.

Model some difference in suits, seats and stamina between the various aircraft. Model smooth G increases vs peaks. It doesn't have to be elaborate or complicated, but it would already make such a massive difference in how dogfights are played in DCS.

You're just not gonna be holding G forever, no matter how reclined your seat is. Suffer a couple minutes of rating around at 7+Gs and fatigue will start setting in hard. Pull an instant 9-10G and you're not gonna stay awake for very long.

Some of the other combat sims can already give you examples of how fights like that play out. It's more about energy/angles management and less about horizontal rating on the deck at the speed of stupid.

I agree with this.

I recommend a two-tiered over-g model. First, the player starts experiencing gradual gray out starting at 1g over limit, culminating in GLOC at 2g over limit. This would allow the player to use the resulting tunnel vision as a sort of g meter, helping them stay within the limits.

The second tier of the over-g model would be instant GLOC for an extreme, instantaneous spike. For example, a Tomcat or Eagle pilot yanking the stick back to 11 or more g's. To discourage this behavior, the resulting GLOC could even be permanent for that sortie, meaning they would stay blacked out and crash.

It could be called, "Tournament Mode"

Just a thought.

Edited June 13, 2023 by Cab

[Spartan111sqn]

Forget the comparison with hornet.

The key is that it is underperfoming versus the real Viper. The thrust, the drag, there is something not matching with the real one.

[GGTharos]

13 hours ago, Cab said:

I agree with this.

I recommend a two-tiered over-g model. First, the player starts experiencing gradual gray out starting at 1g over limit, culminating in GLOC at 2g over limit. This would allow the player to use the resulting tunnel vision as a sort of g meter, helping them stay within the limits.

Why?  It's not realistic.

13 hours ago, Cab said:

The second tier of the over-g model would be instant GLOC for an extreme, instantaneous spike. For example, a Tomcat or Eagle pilot yanking the stick back to 11 or more g's.

Why?  It's not realistic.

13 hours ago, Cab said:

To discourage this behavior, the resulting GLOC could even be permanent for that sortie, meaning they would stay blacked out and crash.

Ah, I see.  What will you do to punish hornet pilots using the paddle then?

[St4RgAz3R]

14 hours ago, Spartan111sqn said:

Forget the comparison with hornet.

The key is that it is underperfoming versus the real Viper. The thrust, the drag, there is something not matching with the real one.

I don't think it's so far off from being close to the real one as diagrams and charts show. Maybe some excessive drag when you are in a A/A loadout or having stores in general. But i really think that the viper is being bottlenecked by the g effects of the pilot. At speeds where it starts to shine the pilot just can't keep up not letting it reach it's full potential. That's why we see youtubers dominate in the f16 dogfights with g effects off, i don't think they would do so good if they had them on. Maybe as others said ED could customize g effects suited to each aircraft accordingly taking in account g suits , seating position, or even pilots themselves in more demanding aircraft should have better g tolerances as it would be required IRL to be qualified to fly them.

[Cab]

5 hours ago, GGTharos said:

Why?  It's not realistic.

Really? Pilots don't ever start getting tunnel vision at about 9 to 10g?

Pilots have never GLOC'd snapping to 11g?

5 hours ago, GGTharos said:

Ah, I see.  What will you do to punish hornet pilots using the paddle then?

They would start blacking out at 8.5g and GLOC at 9.5g

[darkman222]

4 hours ago, GGTharos said:

Why?  It's not realistic.

Its not about realism with the G LOC modelling its just about that the DCS F16 pilot is not qualified to fly that jet. Of course it is almost impossible to agree on whats realistic or what a virtual pilot should be capable of. But if he does not meet the requirements, we can all agree on that this is unrealistic. Its 15 seconds and there is a document out about it. I wont post it because ED forum rules. But even though, 15 seconds requirement is absolutely plausible.

If you build a race car capable of running 300 km/h but put tires on that explode at 250 km/h, so you have to go slower than 300 km/h, would that mean the car underperforms?

2 hours ago, St4RgAz3R said:

At speeds where it starts to shine the pilot just can't keep up not letting it reach it's full potential. That's why we see youtubers dominate in the f16 dogfights with g effects off,

THIS!

 

[Cab]

But of course this isn't about realism. It's about mitigating already existing unrealism.

[GGTharos]

So you are forced to wonder if the other jets overperform because you didn't run the numbers on them?

2 hours ago, Cab said:

But of course this isn't about realism. It's about mitigating already existing unrealism.

Make F-18 players stop using the paddle (detonate their aircraft if they do?  I don't know) and you'll be a huge step closer to realism.   Not this made up 'g-tier' fantasy.

What would also be really realistic is people obtaining BFM skills.  But that's hard.

Can't find an aircraft's real E-M or acceleration charts?  Ban it from competition since you cannot verify its realism in any way.

Suddenly you're all these steps closer to realism before you even touch g-modeling - which ED is doing anyway.

[GGTharos]

2 hours ago, darkman222 said:

Its not about realism with the G LOC modelling its just about that the DCS F16 pilot is not qualified to fly that jet. Of course it is almost impossible to agree on whats realistic or what a virtual pilot should be capable of. But if he does not meet the requirements, we can all agree on that this is unrealistic. Its 15 seconds and there is a document out about it. I wont post it because ED forum rules. But even though, 15 seconds requirement is absolutely plausible.

In a centrifuge under controlled conditions.  The G-LOC thing is pretty old now, and ED said they are reviewing it.  Not sure why people are complaining about it still instead of waiting to see what ED comes back with.

2 hours ago, darkman222 said:

If you build a race car capable of running 300 km/h but put tires on that explode at 250 km/h, so you have to go slower than 300 km/h, would that mean the car underperforms?

It means you chose the wrong tyres ... but pilots aren't tyres, pilots can't really upgrade their g-tolerance.  Aircraft have pretty much reached and exceeded it under specific circumstances.  That doesn't mean the excess isn't useful, but you need to take it in the right doses.

[Temetre]

So do we actually got some convincing data about the F-16 underperforming or being weird, compared to reality (rather than other planes)? Consídering how much this is descending into paddle-discussions, it doesnt seem so.

G-discussion is also giong in circles. Feels like either F-16 is wrong, or any other plane and sim is wrong. Wanna see what ED says.

vor 35 Minuten schrieb GGTharos:

Make F-18 players stop using the paddle (detonate their aircraft if they do?  I don't know) and you'll be a huge step closer to realism.   Not this made up 'g-tier' fantasy.

This game is a fantasy. Youre not actually flying the real plane, youre living out a fantasy.

Edited June 14, 2023 by Temetre

[Cab]

1 hour ago, GGTharos said:

So you are forced to wonder if the other jets overperform because you didn't run the numbers on them?

So for the record, you have no reason to believe the F-15 and F-14 are over-performing. And, no. I am not going to provide evidence. I would no sooner try to prove the earth is round.

1 hour ago, GGTharos said:

Make F-18 players stop using the paddle (detonate their aircraft if they do?  I don't know) and you'll be a huge step closer to realism.

Sure, but that can't happen right now. Plus it wouldn't solve the "problem" of the other aircraft (See comment above)

1 hour ago, GGTharos said:

Not this made up 'g-tier' fantasy.

The very existence of Auto-GCAS seems to dispute the "fantasy" claim. 

47 minutes ago, Temetre said:

This game is a fantasy. Youre not actually flying the real plane, youre living out a fantasy. 

BLASPHEMY!!!! 

Edited June 14, 2023 by Cab