correct as is F16 Still Underperforming

[MARLAN_]

53 minutes ago, gortex said:

That's easy to do with some math.

Go ahead and do the calculation.  You'll find that the STR falls way behind the other jets above Mach 0.6 without the paddle.

You'll need to get fast to gun down a decent F-15 pilot, for example.  If he gets you up to 0.9 in a tail chase and does his 10g turn you will overshoot like an unguided missile unless you use the paddle.

@Temetre

Some look down on the paddle because a 10g turn could compromise the jet for future sorties.  It's a role playing thing.  If you think the paddle isn't useful for dogfighting then please visit one of the dogfight servers.  I think you will change your mind.

I don't need to do math, that's what the DCS Simulator does for us. I use Tacview Advanced and chart out the STR. Paddle usage barely increases STR as I mentioned (~0.1-0.2 deg/sec) but at the cost of flying on the cusp of GLOC & arcing. The big advantage people usually see from it is its ability to correct gross errors like arcing, if you aren't flying incorrectly to begin with paddle in the DCS F-18 is not an advantage.

Also, really not sure why these F-16 topics always seem to derail into F-18's and paddle usage.

[VarZat]

1 minute ago, MARLAN_ said:

 

Also, really not sure why these F-16 topics always seem to derail into F-18's and paddle usage.

Because everyone in the F-16 is getting hammered by F-18s in dogfights.

[MARLAN_]

35 minutes ago, gortex said:

Same data converted to deg/s @MARLAN_

By mach 0.7 the no-paddle Hornet has one of the worst STR among the NATO 4th gen fighters, but the Hornet pilot isn't going to be very effective if he can't pursue an opponent flying faster.

This doesn't look like Tacview data, did you test (STR specifically) this in the simulator? That is the most reliable data, we have no guarantee what physics calculations are happening in DCS's back end, or your math could be wrong as well. You have conflicting data to what I produced, so please check inside DCS which will produce results which are 100% accurate to DCS.

Edited June 9, 2023 by MARLAN_

[Cab]

1 hour ago, MARLAN_ said:

Also, really not sure why these F-16 topics always seem to derail into F-18's and paddle usage.

This is the one thing I agree with you on.

Personally, I have no idea if the F-16 is underperforming, but I have no doubt that the F-18 with the paddle is severely overperforming. This assumes, of course, that we are comparing them to their real-life counterparts.

[MARLAN_]

9 minutes ago, gortex said:

@MARLAN_

What data did you present?  Everything in the graph is in-game test data.

I had to dig through Tacviews with no labels to find my test from a month ago. Here it is.
null

@Cab Since you have no doubt, you should create a thread in the F-18 forums with public empirical evidence (i.e. EM diagrams) that the F-18 is overperforming with paddle and ED will likely fix it, we all want a more realistic simulator.

Tacview-20230515-015905-DCS.zip.acmi

Edited June 9, 2023 by MARLAN_

[MARLAN_]

55 minutes ago, gortex said:

Same data converted to deg/s @MARLAN_

By mach 0.7 the no-paddle Hornet has one of the worst STR among the NATO 4th gen fighters, but the Hornet pilot isn't going to be very effective if he can't pursue an opponent flying faster.

I totally misunderstood this, your STR is not much different than mine -- I think the disconnect here, is why do we care about mach number (and/or max G)? STR is what matters in this context. If you are "in pursuit" just shoot an AMRAAM/Sparrow/Sidewinder at them.

Edited June 9, 2023 by MARLAN_

[Cab]

4 minutes ago, MARLAN_ said:

I had to dig through Tacviews with no labels to find my test from a month ago. Here it is.
null

@Cab You should create a thread in the F-18 forums with public empirical evidence (i.e. EM diagrams) that the F-18 is overperforming with paddle and ED will likely fix it, we all want a more realistic simulator.

Tacview-20230515-015905-DCS.zip.acmi 185.04 kB · 0 downloads

 

There is plenty of information posted already, and still people cannot agree. So, I prefer to not waste my time.

But I'd offer the F-18's complete BFM dominance in DCS is the biggest indicator there is a divergence from reality. No one speaks about it that way in real life. Not even the Hornet pilots themselves. And its dominance comes from using the paddle. I have a lot of time dogfighting in the DCS Hornet, and the difference between paddle and no-paddle is night and day. 

[MARLAN_]

10 minutes ago, gortex said:

Because we're discussing performance on the dogfight servers with guns-only BFM.

Dogfight servers with guns-only BFM aren't realistic scenarios so we shouldn't be conflating what's real with them.

If the argument becomes in a 1v1 guns-only situation with no other aircraft, SAMs, threats, or anything else realistic of any kind, and the offensive pilot is incapable of shooting down the other jet before they bug out then flying faster could be advantageous, but I'm not really sure how this has anything to do with the F-16 underperforming.

10 minutes ago, gortex said:

I see a blue trend line for deg/s and a brown trend line for g.  Which parts are with/without the paddle?

Anything sustained above 7.5 G is going to be paddle usage.

10 minutes ago, Cab said:

There is plenty of information posted already, and still people cannot agree. So, I prefer to not waste my time.

But I'd offer the F-18's complete BFM dominance in DCS is the biggest indicator there is a divergence from reality. No one speaks about it that way in real life. Not even the Hornet pilots themselves. And its dominance comes from using the paddle. I have a lot of time dogfighting in the DCS Hornet, and the difference between paddle and no-paddle is night and day. 

I don't think there actually is any actual evidence that what we are discussing is "without a doubt" unrealistic.

Anecdotes are unreliable for many reasons, human memory, inconsistent conditions, training conditions (e.g. more fuel/equipment/etc. loaded than dogfight servers), different airframes and more.

If you can post public empirical evidence, please do so. This conversation on the forums would be immediately dead in the water as soon as someone posts hard evidence. But the fact is, that doesn't exist. There are plenty of documents that give a rough idea, coupled with SME input (albeit not as reliable as data) and that is already what we have in DCS, and it is as realistic as it can be based on that.

Edited June 9, 2023 by MARLAN_

[MARLAN_]

4 minutes ago, gortex said:

Of course they aren't realistic.  Guns-only BFM is an art form, and it is a lot of fun.

Earlier in this thread I remarked that in every other respect the F-16 is a great module, and it is very capable.  It's just in this one specialized domain that it's a laggard, but boy is it an important specialty!

Yeah, the F-16 is very capable in almost every area, agreed. Although I don't agree with everyone assuming it must be better than everything else at BFM, we don't know that, in fact available evidence does not support this claim. It's certainly good at BFM, but not necessarily the best.

Edited June 9, 2023 by MARLAN_

[Cab]

5 minutes ago, MARLAN_ said:

Yeah, the F-16 is very capable in almost every area, agreed. Although I don't agree with everyone assuming it must be better than everything else at BFM, we don't know that, in fact available evidence does not support this claim. It's certainly good at BFM, but not necessarily the best.

 

Maybe people are putting too much credence in the comments of real pilots who have flown or flown against both jets, and almost universally agree the Hornet is great at slow speeds, but the F-16 is otherwise one of the toughest opponents.

Anecdotal, certainly. But maybe in this case the consensus of opinion is pointing to the truth.

[darkman222]

To sum it up:

F18 is flown with paddle = Advantage

F16 suffers from unrealistic G modeling of pilot, cant be flown long enough in regime where it performs best = Disadvantage

 

F16 is made to kill under high G load. In reality you dont have an owl neck while pulling 9 G with the paddle and can jink like crazy. But in DCS you can do, especially F18 and Mirage dudes do it  = Disadvantage F16

F18 can jink under heavy G load, while not losing sight of f16, which will make the F16 slow, eventually overshoot = Advantage F18

 

What happens is all that stuff adds up to what we have now and is only relevant in DCS not in the real world. If you have enough with that discussion, head over to a radar discussion. Same can be observed there too. Unfortunately the sim acts against rate fighters and favors radius fighters. Its the way it is and its just a sim, people will use exploits, which is real life.

Edited June 9, 2023 by darkman222

[MARLAN_]

19 minutes ago, darkman222 said:

To sum it up:

F18 is flown with paddle = Advantage

Untrue, unless we are discussing the bug out scenario, which doesn't really have relevance to the F-16 underperforming, unless you are talking about "buffing" for "balance". DCS is trying to create a realistic situation, not balanced dogfight gameplay.

19 minutes ago, darkman222 said:

F16 suffers from unrealistic G modeling of pilot, cant be flown long enough in regime where it performs best = Disadvantage

How do we know this? Do we have data that F-16 pilots dogfight at sustained 9G (not just capability, that they actually do this as a standard)? Every pilot I've talked to says while 9G is doable, its super difficult to deal with, which does seem to reflect DCS. G has a huge effect as you increase it and especially when sustained. 4-5 G is nothing to a trained pilot, 7 is straining but fine, 9 is a big deal.

19 minutes ago, darkman222 said:

F16 is made to kill under high G load. In reality you dont have an owl neck while pulling 9 G with the paddle and can jink like crazy. But in DCS you can do, especially F18 and Mirage dudes do it  = Disadvantage F16

Owl neck, sure, but this has nothing to do with the F-16 underperforming in DCS, again this is not about balance, its about realism. The solution would be to have some effects to prevent "owl neck", not adjusting airframe performance to "balance" the game.

19 minutes ago, darkman222 said:

F18 can jink under heavy G load, while not losing sight of f16, which will make the F16 slow, eventually overshoot = Advantage F18

You will only overshoot if you are making mistakes (i.e. poor dogfight skills). There are many ways to deal with a defensive pilot trying to create an overshoot. There's a reason the control zone is described how it is.

19 minutes ago, darkman222 said:

What happens is all that stuff adds up to what we have now and is only relevant in DCS not in the real world.

DCS isn't real life. It never will be.

Edited June 9, 2023 by MARLAN_

[darkman222]

20 minutes ago, MARLAN_ said:

Do we have data that F-16 pilots dogfight at sustained 9G

The DCS F16 pilot is not qualified to fly the jet. Threrefore some of F16 DGFT tactics dont work. Because the pilot cant rate and then pull the bandit in the HUD because he is already too exhausted from 7,5 to 8 G.

Does not matter if we have data how pilots fight in the F16. The DCS pilot cant stand 15 sec of 9 G which disqualfies him. And the DCS F16 is a 9G fighter with a pilot not capable of 9G not even 8G in some circumstances. This is another addditional limiting factor for the DCS F16.

20 minutes ago, MARLAN_ said:

overshoot if you are making mistakes

If someone does an owl neck jink desync whatever, you can be the best gunner in the DCS F16 world, your chances are very low to kill him.

20 minutes ago, MARLAN_ said:

DCS isn't real life. It never will be.

Try to understand my post correctly. This is what my post was all about. Not about compensating it with how the airframe is actually simulated.

Edited June 9, 2023 by darkman222

[MARLAN_]

1 minute ago, darkman222 said:

The DCS F16 pilot is not qualified to fly the jet. Threrefore some of F16 DGFT tactics dont work. Because the pilot cant rate and then pull the bandit in the HUD because he is already too exhausted from 7,5 to 8 G.

Which F16 dogfight tactics? Do you have a source that pulling 9G sustained is a dogfight tactic?

2 minutes ago, darkman222 said:

Does not matter if we have data how pilots fight in the F16. The DCS pilot cant stand 15 sec of 9 G which disqualfies him. And the F16 is a 9G fighter with a pilot not capable. This is another addditional limiting factor.

Sitting still in a centrifuge is very different than being in a live dogfight, but DCS is probably a tiny bit too extreme on G effects. You can sustain 8.4G for a long time currently (8G indefinitely), although that may still be reasonably realistic still because again, sitting in a centrifuge is different than a dogfight.

[darkman222]

10 minutes ago, MARLAN_ said:

Do you have a source that pulling 9G sustained is a dogfight tactic?

Yeah sure. Engineers at General Dynamics: Lets build a 9G fighter, but no one will be able to use it in dogfight.

I talk about rating around a bandit is useless if you cant pull him in your HUD for a kill.

 

[buceador]

On 6/4/2023 at 11:16 PM, gortex said:

I didn't say anything about ps=0.   But I will admit it gets better once the fuel gets below 3000 lbs.

As for BFM, no.  You can win against a bad pilot in something else, but against anyone who knows what he is doing in the Hornet, Mirage, or Eagle you will lose in the Viper.  We've tested this out with excellent pilots in various 1v1 setups.  The best pilot who wins same-aircraft match-ups loses when it is a dissimilar match-up and he has to fly the F-16 against a worse pilot in something else.  The F-16 gets out-rated by those other jets at every useful airspeed, sustained and instantaneous.

I think GS would beg to differ...

[darkman222]

 

What do you think means when he says 1) "hold that lag pursuit course" and 2) "thats when you want to pull the nose on the target" 

Translation: 1) sustaining and rating around 2) pull him in the HUD with max G... But oh no, I blacked out. I did not hear him say that.

 

If you want a test, see there is another F16 sim out there. Which does g modelling very well. You know what? The stuff Pete is talking about actually works, if the pilot is F16 qualified.

 

Edited June 9, 2023 by darkman222

[MARLAN_]

12 minutes ago, gortex said:

Yeah, looks pretty close to DCS since you can sustain ~8.4G and as far as the video shows, he's mostly around 8.4-8.6G with at some unseen point a spike to 9G which sets the max G. As I said, could probably use some very minor tuning in DCS.

3 minutes ago, darkman222 said:

 

What do you think means when he says 1) "hold that lag pursuit course" and 2) "thats when you want to pull the nose on the target" 

Translation: 1) sustaining and rating around 2) pull him in the HUD with max G. But oh no, I blacked out. I did not hear him say that.

This proves absolutely nothing lol. Does he say "hold that 9G sustained lag pursuit course"? No? This is a pointless comment.

[darkman222]

7 minutes ago, MARLAN_ said:

This proves absolutely nothing lol. Does he say "hold that 9G sustained lag pursuit course"? No? This is a pointless comment.

This proves you dont get the basics of how an energy fight works Mr. F18.

He does NOT say hold that 9G sustained turn, he said hold that lag pursuit course and spend your energy when you can score a kill. You have a basic misunderstanding about this concept, sorry my friend.

Edited June 9, 2023 by darkman222

[MARLAN_]

3 minutes ago, darkman222 said:

This proves you dont get the basics of how a energy fight works Mr. F18. He does NOT say hold that 9G sustained turn, he said hold that lag pursuit course. You have a basic misunderstanding what the topic is.

 

I have no basic misunderstanding, and no need to resort to insults. Please enlighten me what I as misunderstanding. The video makes no claim about pulling max G as you stated. You are making absolutely no point, please clarify.

[darkman222]

One more time: You rate around the circle. 7,5 G maybe. Then you realize you can pull the bandit in the HUD for the kill. But you cant pull the bandit in the HUD because if you pull even 8,2 whatever for 2 seconds, the F16 pilot falls asleep.

I dont want to insult someone, I was just trying to save your and my time here.

[MARLAN_]

3 minutes ago, darkman222 said:

One more time: You rate around the circle. 7,5 G maybe. Then you realize you can pull the bandit in the HUD for the kill. But you cant pull the bandit in the HUD because if you pull even 8,2 whatever for 2 seconds, the F16 pilot falls asleep.

I dont want to insult someone, I was just trying to save your and my time here.

You can pull 8.2 G for much longer than 2 seconds in DCS.

You also missed the part in the video where he says both fighters are slower. If you're slower you are pulling less G.

Edited June 9, 2023 by MARLAN_

[darkman222]

21 minutes ago, MARLAN_ said:

pull 8.2 G for much longer than 2 seconds

I talk coming from a sustained turn rate fight for nose position. Not coming from horizontal flight.

I have a nice in game video collection showing that you cant rate and then pull the bandit in the HUD without seriously being limited by fighting g loc. But I will create a separate thread about just that topic. I was about to post it here but:

21 minutes ago, MARLAN_ said:

If you're slower you are pulling less G.

Okay, sorry no offence, but I dont know how often you fight in the F16 compared to the F18, but I feel that arguing with someone who has an F18 badge here is slightly biased and I still have the feeling you dont understand where my argument is going. I know both the F16 and F18 world and I know what you have in mind, but that does not apply for the F16.

So good luck, thats all from me. Over and out.

Edited June 9, 2023 by darkman222

[MARLAN_]

3 minutes ago, darkman222 said:

I talk coming from a sustained turn rate fight for nose position. Not coming from horizontal flight.

You just said sustain ~7.5G and then nose on to kill based on the video, except you'd be slower also based on the video. So everything works out. I never said horizontal flight although not sure what you mean here anyway, there is only horizontal, oblique and vertical and I don't know how that matters to this discussion besides complicating things.

 

4 minutes ago, darkman222 said:

Okay, sorry no offence, but I dont know how often you fight in the F16 compared to the F18, but I feel that arguing with someone who has an F18 badge here is slightly biased and I still have the feeling you dont understand where my argument is going. So good luck, thats all from me. Over and out.

Okay, sorry no offence, but I dont know how often you fight in the F18 compared to the F16, but I feel that arguing with someone who has an F16 badge here is slightly biased and I still have the feeling you dont understand where my argument is going. So good luck, thats all from me. Over and out.

Glad we could come to an agreement, I have to get to work now.

[darkman222]

6 minutes ago, MARLAN_ said:

F16 badge here is slightly biased

Of course I have an F16 badge here, thats why I am arguing in the F16 forum and not in the F18 subforum. lol. Have a nice day at work.

Edited June 9, 2023 by darkman222