thought about mutli era maps

[upyr1]

Some theaters have been hot spots or at least potential hot spots for decades. The Korean peninsula, the Middle East, and Central Europe all come to mind. I for one would have no problem with having maps of the same region covering different eras in these cases. However, the real question is what would be the best way to sell them?

Individually, bundled or an option for both? 

 

[draconus]

Create and sell one map with 3 eras included:

- WW2 (40s-50s)

- Cold War (60s-80s)

- Modern (90s-2010s)

Map would automatically change with the mission date.

[Lace]

I think the issue with this is that we are seeing more procedurally developed maps based on current imagery.  This means historical maps will be much more work to develop given the lack of digital resources for the time period.  I guess the flipside of that argument is that they don't necessarily need to be 100% accurate though. 

That said, I'd love to see a 70's Vietnam, 80's central Europe, 90's Iraq/Kuwait, etc.  I wish the Sinai map was a 50s/60s version, and I really hope ED don't do something stupid with the Vietnam map and make a modern version.

[Gunfreak]

I don't think it's possible to have one map with different versions, it would be 2 or 3 completely different maps with the only major similarity being the geographic shape. 

So 3 versions of Syria would mean you need 240gig of space to have all 3.

Modern and WW2 Marianas will be two different maps, not one map with modern and ww2 terrain on top of it.

[draconus]

4 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

I don't think it's possible to have one map with different versions...

No, not currently in DCS, but it's a wishlist. In programming everything is possible, I don't know where people get the limitations from?!

And no, it doesn't mean 3 times the size. Most of it are textures. Of course you need a few more for different era objects and some places but that's it.

[Gunfreak]

21 minutes ago, draconus said:

No, not currently in DCS, but it's a wishlist. In programming everything is possible, I don't know where people get the limitations from?!

And no, it doesn't mean 3 times the size. Most of it are textures. Of course you need a few more for different era objects and some places but that's it.

If they were gonna remove the limitation they would probably have done so for Marianas or Normandy 2, but they didn't. So for many many years, possibly forever. Any major change to map would require a completely separate map.

[Mr_sukebe]

Of course it's possible to have three different historic versions of the same map.

However, as already said, whilst the basic geography is likely to be the same, there could be massive differences elsewhere, e.g. new towns, industrial complexes, re-development of existing locations (e.g. most UK airfields from WW2 are NOT airfields anymore).

The implications are simple, i.e. that it would probably take as much "effort" to create each historic version.  Would we as the customers be willing to keep paying up for those different versions as we won't get them for free.

[upyr1]

On 4/12/2023 at 2:25 AM, Lace said:

That said, I'd love to see a 70's Vietnam, 80's central Europe, 90's Iraq/Kuwait, etc.  I wish the Sinai map was a 50s/60s version, and I really hope ED don't do something stupid with the Vietnam map and make a modern version.

Vietnam is on of the multi era maps I would love to see.

A word war II/ 1950s for the F4U as the French used them.

A 1960s/70s map 

And a modern one for the flanker 

[upyr1]

On 4/12/2023 at 2:31 AM, Gunfreak said:

I don't think it's possible to have one map with different versions, it would be 2 or 3 completely different maps with the only major similarity being the geographic shape. 

On 4/12/2023 at 2:31 AM, Gunfreak said:

So 3 versions of Syria would mean you need 240gig of space to have all 3.

Modern and WW2 Marianas will be two different maps, not one map with modern and ww2 terrain on top of it.

The real question about the size is what could dcs reuse?  For example with the Marianas will they reuse the terrain but have different buildings  

Edited April 14, 2023 by upyr1

[upyr1]

On 4/12/2023 at 5:51 AM, Mr_sukebe said:

Of course it's possible to have three different historic versions of the same map.

However, as already said, whilst the basic geography is likely to be the same, there could be massive differences elsewhere, e.g. new towns, industrial complexes, re-development of existing locations (e.g. most UK airfields from WW2 are NOT airfields anymore).

The implications are simple, i.e. that it would probably take as much "effort" to create each historic version.  Would we as the customers be willing to keep paying up for those different versions as we won't get them for free.

That's why I say the issue here is if they should be sold individually or together? 

Personally I would hope for options for both

Edited April 14, 2023 by upyr1

[upyr1]

On 4/10/2023 at 10:34 AM, draconus said:

Create and sell one map with 3 eras included:

- WW2 (40s-50s)

- Cold War (60s-80s)

- Modern (90s-2010s)

Map would automatically change with the mission date.

It will take a lot of effort to do a multi era map. So while I want a bundle pack I am not sure selling them individually would be a bad idea. Though the price would be the same for buying all the eras. 

[Rick50]

 

It's definitely "doable". Been done before, and will soon appear with the WW2 Mariannas map.

But... and this is a big butt... will it be practical for all the maps we'd like multiple eras for?

Sourcing old air photos may not be easy, fast or cheap for certain areas of the world, maybe even impossible to get, in some cases. Much of the world was not documented to the extent that Western Europe was in the 1940's. At least not outside of mil recon mapping and photography, and I'm betting a lot of photorecon did not get declass even well after the war, despite what some Chair-warriors might have publicly said! Doing the research, finding old maps, sure they are out there, but getting enough of them, ensuring they don't have mistakes and inaccuracies...

Getting a map, from announcement to download from the store, takes years at this time and the last while. Getting companies to develop alternate versions, would  probably add a minimum of an extra year OR MORE to get the "other era map". That time and effort... might prevent a totally different terrain map from arriving, delaying by a year or more. Also, that extra year of dev time would require additional compensation for the people making the new "era" map. I'm not sure all map devs want to take on a multi-era map, and it might be very risky for sales: splitting existing customers into two or more products, in an already fairly limited market ? Sure, might work here and there, but could spell disaster for another map product.

I say all this even though I myself champion a "multi-era Korea map" myself, I figure 3 or 4 eras for Korea sounds about right: the war in the 50's, a 1978 Cold War map, a current day 2023 map with giant sprawling city centers... and I can't recall the other era... maybe around say 1995 like that old Falcon product had?

Doable. Costly. Time consuming. Wanted. 

 

I think part of the key might be to figure out ways for us, the community, to HELP map developers. For instance, sourcing the historical maps, thousands of historical terrain photos, into bundles that would be available to a dev team.

Maybe figuring out ways to improve the software code to more rapidly create the end product (obviously very few could help with that, and might be impossible without access to the tools). 

Maybe someone who doesn't have the 3d tools for DCS maps, but DOES know how traditional maps are, and knows paint programs well, could perhaps make a properly scaled flat 2d image, with all the buildings, roads, fields, forrests and such, that could help speed along the workflow for the 3d artists on the dev team. Maybe it could be even used as the ground texture that would be overlaid on the terrain mesh, or at least used as a template?

I don't know, just thinking outside the box.

 

[upyr1]

On 4/16/2023 at 4:19 PM, Rick50 said:

It's definitely "doable". Been done before, and will soon appear with the WW2 Mariannas map.

But... and this is a big butt... will it be practical for all the maps we'd like multiple eras for?

This ulitmatly is the question. It might not be practical for everything

 

On 4/16/2023 at 4:19 PM, Rick50 said:

Sourcing old air photos may not be easy, fast or cheap for certain areas of the world, maybe even impossible to get, in some cases. Much of the world was not documented to the extent that Western Europe was in the 1940's. At least not outside of mil recon mapping and photography, and I'm betting a lot of photorecon did not get declass even well after the war, despite what some Chair-warriors might have publicly said! Doing the research, finding old maps, sure they are out there, but getting enough of them, ensuring they don't have mistakes and inaccuracies...

 

I don't pretend to know how much work it would take, but this and interest are both big issues. Its vital for ED and the other developers to think of more than just module development.  Every module needs one map and period assets to build a mission. I thin central Europe and Korea are both good candidates for multi era maps as is Vietnam

On 4/16/2023 at 4:19 PM, Rick50 said:

I say all this even though I myself champion a "multi-era Korea map" myself, I figure 3 or 4 eras for Korea sounds about right: the war in the 50's, a 1978 Cold War map, a current day 2023 map with giant sprawling city centers... and I can't recall the other era... maybe around say 1995 like that old Falcon product had?

Doable. Costly. Time consuming. Wanted. 

 

My only disagrement is that i think a 1968 map around the Pueblo incident and those border classes should be the middle map- I'm not objecting to a 1970s or 1980s map for the F-4E and MiG-21 Bis

My choices for Vietnam 

Possibly a 1940s/50s WWII and the Indochina war 

1 960s/1970s map for Vietnam war scenarios

possibly a 1980s map for the Sino Vietnam war the 1970s map might work double duty

a modern map for a Second Sino/ Vietnam war it would be a home for the Flanker and Jeff

 

[Mr_sukebe]

I was wondering yesterday about the viability of using AI to generate a “reasonable estimate” of what could/should exist on a historic version of a map, based upon information available.  I wonder how viable that would be

[upyr1]

11 minutes ago, Mr_sukebe said:

I was wondering yesterday about the viability of using AI to generate a “reasonable estimate” of what could/should exist on a historic version of a map, based upon information available.  I wonder how viable that would be

 

This is a good question,  my candidate for a map to test the tech would be a WWII Caucuses map 

[Rick50]

On 4/23/2023 at 4:03 AM, Mr_sukebe said:

I was wondering yesterday about the viability of using AI to generate a “reasonable estimate” of what could/should exist on a historic version of a map, based upon information available.  I wonder how viable that would be

 

Indeed... you could be onto something...