Normandy 2: My first impressions

[jef32]

Hi

 

I've bought this map and until here my only link with the WWII in DCS was the P-51 Mustang. So, having IL2 BOS on my computer and using it very very rarely, I've decided to uninstall it and buying this new map for DCS for when I want to play a WWII flight simulation. I've bought the asset pack too and my first feeling is that there aren't bombers IA enough. Just B-17 and AN-20 for allied forces and JU-88 for axis forces: It's poor, very very poor. Especially for the axis force. The sinister legentary Stuka isn't here, the BF110 isn't here, the sinister legendary Heinkel 111 well known by londoners, isn't here. The D-Day gliders aren't here and the legendary Avro Lancaster isn't here, ( I know, a DCS user is creating it but isn't on line yet), the Beaufighter isn't here, the V1 and V2, the first military drones of the History aren't here, some famous english fighters aren't here, like the Hurricane and the Tempest and I think that it would be ED role to add enough IA WWII aircraft into the asset pack, to give to this map a real WWII ambiance and currently we are far from the mark. The only missions we can do are bombers escort missions or ground attack for people having bought the P-47.
 So for the landscape: I find that Paris look like a big province town. Too too much trees, some monuments are missing: The Bourbon's palace ( national assembly) , the Beauveau place with police ministry which was the Kommandantur of Paris in the dark years, the Crillon Hotel and I havn't seen the Versailles castle.
For London, I don't know, but the most english famous airfield of the war, Biggin Hill is missing and it's really infortunate for this map. I don't know if a factory near the Thames at London west , made famous years later by Pink Floyd, had just 2 chimneys at these times, but on the map, it just have two chimneys.

That's what I can say for now, for this map.

Edited April 24, 2023 by jef32

[Rudel_chw]

12 minutes ago, jef32 said:

The sinister legentary Stuka isn't here, the BF110 isn't here, the sinister legendary Heinkel 111 well known by londoners, isn't here

 

None of those were in service on France during 1944 ... but I agree that more AI types would be nice to have: He-177, Do-217, Me-410, Tempest, Lancaster, Halifax, and B-26.

[DD_Fenrir]

On 4/24/2023 at 4:18 PM, jef32 said:

Hi

 

I've bought this map and until here my only link with the WWII in DCS was the P-51 Mustang. So, having IL2 BOS on my computer and using it very very rarely, I've decided to uninstall it and buying this new map for DCS for when I want to play a WWII flight simulation. I've bought the asset pack too and my first feeling is that there aren't bombers IA enough. Just B-17 and AN-20 for allied forces and JU-88 for axis forces: It's poor, very very poor. Especially for the axis force. The sinister legentary Stuka isn't here, the BF110 isn't here, the sinister legendary Heinkel 111 well known by londoners, isn't here. The D-Day gliders aren't here and the legendary Avro Lancaster isn't here, ( I know, a DCS user is creating it but isn't on line yet), the Beaufighter isn't here, the V1 and V2, the first military drones of the History aren't here, some famous english fighters aren't here, like the Hurricane and the Tempest and I think that it would be ED role to add enough IA WWII aircraft into the asset pack, to give to this map a real WWII ambiance and currently we are far from the mark. The only missions we can do are bombers escort missions or ground attack for people having bought the P-47.
 So for the landscape: I find that Paris look like a big province town. Too too much trees, some monuments are missing: The Bourbon's palace ( national assembly) , the Beauveau place with police ministry which was the Kommandantur of Paris in the dark years, the Crillon Hotel and I havn't seen the Versailles castle.
For London, I don't know, but the most english famous airfield of the war, Biggin Hill is missing and it's really infortunate for this map. I don't know if a factory near the Thames at London west , made famous years later by Pink Floyd, had just 2 chimneys at these times, but on the map, it just have two chimneys.

That's what I can say for now, for this map.

 

 

The map is set in 1944. The flyable planes we can ourchase are all 43-45 models. The Ju 87, Bf 110, He 111 & Hurricane were not frontline operational types in the West.

Gliders, however would be a cool addition.

The Tempest would be nice but a Typhoon would be nicer - however the data required to develop a module for DCS is very thin for these aircraft; it is also prefered to have SMEs who have flown the aircraft to assist in making the Flight Model accurate, and there are, alas, all too few of these as there are no flying examples.

V1 and it's launcher are available as static objects; it was slated to be developed as a fully functional weapon system but we have had no update on this feature.

V2 is irrelevant as they were only ever launched from Holland and this does not currently appear on any WW2 period map.

As for Paris I will take your word for it, however, bear in mind that 1. this is a flight simulator, not a First Person Shooter and as such some compromises still have to be made to make development time economical and keep frame rates on low-mid range machines acceptable; therefore a degree of inaccuracy will have to be accepted; 2. not every major building can be modelled accurately - there are performance and development budgets that constrain these things and therefore you tend to only see the most famous or noteworthy buildings/structures included; 3. 80 years ago things looked different so it's not always pertinenet to measure the accuracy of a map by todays optics.

Biggin Hill and a number of other Kent airfields were not included bacuase they exist on the DCS: Channel map.

Battersea Power Station only had two chimneys in the 1940's it was expanded to 4 in 1955.

 

 

Edited April 28, 2023 by DD_Fenrir

[jef32]

33 minutes ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

None of those were in service on France during 1944 ... but I agree that more AI types would be nice to have: He-177, Do-217, Me-410, Tempest, Lancaster, Halifax, and B-26.

But Ok this map is calling Normandy 1944 but this map is made to replace the channel map and the Normandy map. And even if ED has called this new map 1944, it is supposed to be used during all the conflict concerned by this map, from England battle to the liberation of Paris. And at the beginning of the conflict, these bombers were here.

Same answer to DD-Fenrir for who I read the message just after my answer.

Edited April 24, 2023 by jef32

[Rudel_chw]

29 minutes ago, jef32 said:

it is supposed to be used during all the conflict concerned by this map, from England battle to the liberation of Paris.

 

who supposses that?   from the beginning of the DCS WW2 project the Map was centered on the Normandy 1944 battles, that's why it does not have winter textures.

[jef32]

Nobody is saying that but the logic yes. We have a map for the WWII. One of the highest moment of this war was the battle of England, from July to October 1940 ans the blitz in May 1941. No need of winter textures. Then after we have the D-Day and yes, at this time, the Luftwaffe wasn't as very efficient as in the first times of the conflict. But why creating a so interesting map just for a short period of the WWII ?

[Ala13_ManOWar]

2 minutes ago, jef32 said:

Nobody is saying that but the logic yes. We have a map for the WWII. One of the highest moment of this war was the battle of England, from July to October 1940 ans the blitz in May 1941. No need of winter textures. Then after we have the D-Day and yes, at this time, the Luftwaffe wasn't as very efficient as in the first times of the conflict. But why creating a so interesting map just for a short period of the WWII ?

The problem is we're still dragging the burden RRG kickstarter left behind. Luthier (old Il-2 developer) chose those for the kickstarter, planeset, map, everything, and since they dropped out ED has only tried to honour that kickstarter despite it never belonged to them in the first place, we're stuck with a map choice an a doubtful planeset, but people pledged for that in the kickstarter and that's what ED's tried to do. Now with N2 and size increase it's really enhanced since originally intended Normandy 44 map by RRG was ludicrous in size and details compared even to N1, but still, now it's really something big compared to that. Planeset on the other hand, well we've got a couple non expected planes and the ones chose by Luthier are greatly improved over what they intended to do. Still, bad choice from him and a tough work to fix the mess he left behind. That's why.

[jef32]

I wasn't aware about this commercial and copyright war but for the customer we are, it should be not considered. Just hope that ED will extend their WWII asset pack to give us the capacity to use this map for all kind of missions of the WWII really happened on this land ( defending London against the blitz, V1 hunting, bomber escort, shelling of german facilities before the D-Day) and all the kind of missions which were happened during these dark years.

Just an real anecdote when sometimes, humor could had its place in the war: The germans had made a false airbase with dummy wooden aircraft, to try to mislead the english and US airforces from attacking the real airbases. Then one day, the english aviation had attacked this dummy airbase with....wooden bombs. Just to say to germans: "don't keep taking us for idiots !"

Edited April 24, 2023 by jef32

[Ala13_ManOWar]

4 hours ago, jef32 said:

 … but for the customer we are, it should be not considered. …

But it should, it should, all the bakers still want to see what they pledged for, including Me262 which has to come at some point and will be the last module related to the infamous kickstarter still not there. Sadly it all is not over yet.

The assets and all you say, of course, I've been hoping for that all to come sooner than later, and they've said many times it has to come, they have said it's not if it's when many times, and they've talked about BoB stuff and all assets they can possibly manage to model. The problem is, and I guess you realized by now, DCS is such a complex simulator that whatever it is it takes several years to develop, which in turn means also it's an expensive business. For instance people ask for "just IA models" so we can flesh out things and all. They have explained several times when we see those "updated" to current standards (have you seen new B-52, or S-3? that kind), or brand new models, that "just IA" takes thousands of man hours to complete, and figures on the hundred thousands $ to finish. Just an IA. Meaning, yes, they want all that to come, but still ED is a relatively small team, it takes so much time, and it's expensive for such a niche market. They do those things and aim for all of that and more in the end, slowly but non stopping, still it takes so much time to develop such a complex thing that many people lose their patience before it happens.

Edited April 24, 2023 by Ala13_ManOWar

[Silver_Dragon]

Little detail...
- ED core AI Assets team dont put new or updated AI units from 28 October 2022. From them only has fixed som AI units (DCS Word / Bazar / World / Shapes directorie main AI Units), meanwhile, some fixes has been see on some AI units, the last was on 13 April 2022 (AB-212).
- ED WW2 Assets pack team directory last big update was on 28 October 2022... and has on the same situation with the main AI units directorie (not remember yet when was added the mast WW2 AI unit).
- Actualy dont check the last AI unit added to DCS by 3rd Parties, but I think was a RAZBAM South Atlantic UK AOR.
- ED core AI unit team has outside of WW2 AI assets team.
- ED module teams has outside of WW2 / Modern AI teams.
- ED modern module teams has outside of WW2 modules teams.
- ED map teams has outside from any module teams with diferent SDKs (TDK - terrain develop team vs main SDK teams).
Problem actually, by ED newsletters:
- AI core module team has centred on B-52/B-1B/S-3 and other Lomac / FC-3 assets update to actual AI standars, but dont know if has continue working on add more asets, 2023 newsletter dont talk about them. Module assets continue added as some Mirage F-1, AH-64, etc weapons, drop tanks, pods, etc.
- WW2 2023 Newsletter has missing from January, actually (April 2023) has not released and we dont know none about WW2 ED plans... only Marianas WW2 and a future F6F Hellcat by January 2023 and Beyond video, but, actually the plans about WW2 assets pack has "zero / nothing".... the last release WW2 AI unit of C-47 on "March 2022"? ... was "rumors" about PTO content, but none has confirmed by ED, all has speculations...
- Missing funtionality (example V-1 use as unkonow).

[jef32]

Sorry ManOwar, but it's for the visual. Sometimes the IA of DCS has so strange unrealistics behaviours that are we really seeing the difference if a Lancaster has the same flight model than a B-17 or if a JU-88 flies like a Heinkel 111 ? But we're seeing the visual difference and this difference is important for ambience and realism of this period . So it's just a question of view models and I don't think they need months to create a new visual model and giving it a flight model of a similar plane. We wil not see the difference in fight. I just speak for the IA, not for the flyables planes. I think that the customer buying this map has the rights to use it with many items and planes from these times. Can you imagine buying this map if ED hadn't create some warbirds to use with it ? So, Ok , there are a few warbirds to use on this map, and happily the more famous, the Spitfire, is here, but plenty of others are missing to give to this map, the realism it deserves. Perhaps ED should begin to create these missing planes, only if IA, before selling this map.

 

I've just read the message of Silver Dragon that he posted while I was writing this one. You speak about Hellcat ? Imagine that if ED does a pacific WWII map, they willn't need to create the Corsair, the Zero, the Betty and many US and japanese aircraft of this conflict to make the map interesting ?

Edited April 24, 2023 by jef32

[Beirut]

We need the pig. 

[Silver_Dragon]

23 minutes ago, jef32 said:

Sorry ManOwar, but it's for the visual. Sometimes the IA of DCS has so strange unrealistics behaviours that are we really seeing the difference if a Lancaster has the same flight model than a B-17 or if a JU-88 flies like a Heinkel 111 ? But we're seeing the visual difference and this difference is important for ambience and realism of this period . So it's just a question of view models and I don't think they need months to create a new visual model and giving it a flight model of a similar plane. We wil not see the difference in fight. I just speak for the IA, not for the flyables planes. I think that the customer buying this map has the rights to use it with many items and planes from these times. Can you imagine buying this map if ED hadn't create some warbirds to use with it ? So, Ok , there are a few warbirds to use on this map, and happily the more famous, the Spitfire, is here, but plenty of others are missing to give to this map, the realism it deserves. Perhaps ED should begin to create these missing planes, only if IA, before selling this map.

 

I've just read the message of Silver Dragon that he posted while I was writing this one. You speak about Hellcat ? Imagine that if ED does a pacific WWII map, they willn't need to create the Corsair, the Zero, the Betty and many US and japanese aircraft of this conflict to make the map interesting ?

 

Nick Grey talked some years ago on a official interview, about build a F6F Hellcat module (He fly one of them on the Fighter Collection) and after some Battle of Britain modules (same on the fighter collection). On the last seconds of the ED 2023 and Beyond video, after the CH-47 module, appears some WW2 movie films with a F6F, and that was confirm by Wags on the video comentaries. About Japan and other Pacific assets, remember Magnitude 3 F4U Corsair modules, M3 has confirmed they has working on build air / land and sea IJN/IJA/UsNavy assets to PTO theater. ED has working on free Marianas WW2 map, show on 2023 and Beyond video with the M3 F4U Corsair, but not appears any new ED WW2 assets pack AI units.

Jef32, the main problem about "AI Warbirs" was the old KS RRG Studios IA units, after ED WW2 assets pack talk about some AI units, but ED dont have release any AI Warbirds, only a Ju-88 "torpedo variant" and a C-47, none other AI aircraft has been release, outside of actual ED or 3rd party modules, and actually missing some RRG AI units "planned" on the KS, but never "confirmed".

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/508681281/dcs-wwii-europe-1944

 

 

Edited April 24, 2023 by Silver_Dragon

[Ala13_ManOWar]

12 hours ago, jef32 said:

Sorry ManOwar, but it's for the visual. Sometimes the IA of DCS has so strange unrealistics behaviours that are we really seeing the difference if a Lancaster has the same flight model than a B-17 or if a JU-88 flies like a Heinkel 111 ? But we're seeing the visual difference and this difference is important for ambience and realism of this period . So it's just a question of view models and I don't think they need months to create a new visual model and giving it a flight model of a similar plane. We wil not see the difference in fight. I just speak for the IA, not for the flyables planes. I think that the customer buying this map has the rights to use it with many items and planes from these times. Can you imagine buying this map if ED hadn't create some warbirds to use with it ? So, Ok , there are a few warbirds to use on this map, and happily the more famous, the Spitfire, is here, but plenty of others are missing to give to this map, the realism it deserves. Perhaps ED should begin to create these missing planes, only if IA, before selling this map.

No, a Lancaster doesn't have the same FM as a B-17 for sure, but the IA in DCS is being updated actually, in general for new traits (modern jets do stuff they never did before, for instance) but also for WWII is being updated since it needs specific traits for that well different than modern jet stuff. It's been updated several times already, but if I recall correctly it'll be further updated for that, fighters, ground pounders and bombers.

 

About Pacific scenario, yes it's coming, Hellcat from ED but a Corsair from Magnitude 3 is also coming, that's on final testings apparently, and ED is making also a WWII Marianas map version, plus M3 also is making ground assets for that and a WWII aircraft carrier. We don't know about IA aircraft, but an a6m would be mandatory for all of that and we expect it to come of course. Whatever it is, I mean, yes, all of that is coming mate and we all hope very soon and all together or almost together despite being two separated developers.

[jef32]

I didn't say that they have the same FM. I've just said that for the illusion, they can give the same FM to IA.