Switch SD-10 to new scheme API used by AIM-120C

[uboats]

Recently, I saw several players reported issues for sd-10. Since we haven't changed it for a while, i'm afraid it's probably due to the scheme currently used by sd-10 only not updated/maintained.

So I'd like to see your suggestions.

[BigBorner]

Maybe stupid question but, what would that mean in terms of missile behaviour changes? 

[Wyvern]

If the change is going to break the SD-10 just like the LD-10 when it was Switched to the AGM-88, then I'd rather not have the change and keep the current state.

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[Wyvern]

And as BigBorner already said, what will changing the scheme do? Last I have seen, the AIM-120 still has issues with tracking (losing track when enemy jettisons tanks for example)

From what I see, the missile seems to intercept targets normally, but will sometimes mistake the target's position by about 20 meters and miss.

My suggestion is, keeping it for now, until the 120 is fixed again, or try to figure out what exactly is wrong with the SD-10

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[AeriaGloria]

We are talking about seeker API? 

[FlankerFan35]

I see pros and cons here; on the one hand it would be nice if the SD-10 was like the 120 in that it didn't act like a FOX-1 until active (that is to say with dropped lock it still guided to last known location of target and could reacquire by itself as 120 does and as SD-10 should).

On the other hand, as many have said, the 120C has its own host of issues so I'd like clarification on if changes the scheme would have the SD-10 adopt 120 bugs/issues. I think a feature list of what would change would be helpful so we can weigh the pros/cons and vote accordingly. 

Edited May 4, 2023 by FlankerFan35

[Torbernite]

I know the AIM-120 scheme may mean INS + datalink first, and what's more? Would the guidance act in a more realistic, scientific and detailed manner, or more bugged? Could it be solved before moved onto SD-10? 

We need a clear and detailed list or at least a brief on the features and bugs to decide it. And I believe you, as developers, probably have more info and clearer perception on it. So I can adopt that you have the ability, authority and responsibility to make the final decision on your own.

[Napillo]

yes if it has INS (SD-10 definitely doesn't)

[uboats]

TBH, besides the INS feature in new scheme, i don't know other difference

[DSplayer]

I know that for the first couple of patches (and sometimes currently) that the AIM-120 schema acts in a manner where shots can become trashed rather simply compared to the SD-10 which didn't have that problem since it used the older schema. Maybe you could try implementing the SD-10 with the new schema and then provide those changed files on the forums so members can do some in-depth testing before the change is finally made for an OB release.

Also, the radar modeling differences between jets complicate how AIM-120s and SD-10s might act. 

[Mike_Romeo]

On 5/5/2023 at 6:47 AM, uboats said:

TBH, besides the INS feature in new scheme, i don't know other difference

Would it be possible to create a second SD-10 missile using the new scheme so that we the players can try and test the differences ? I mean, Open beta is there to break stuff down.... so why not ? Regards multiplayer, servers can easily restrict missiles if they want so this shouldn't be a concern.

[okopanja]

45 minutes ago, Mike_Romeo said:

Would it be possible to create a second SD-10 missile using the new scheme so that we the players can try and test the differences ? I mean, Open beta is there to break stuff down.... so why not ? Regards multiplayer, servers can easily restrict missiles if they want so this shouldn't be a concern.

Actually this would be a wonderful opportunity, since SD-10 is otherwise known as PL-12. This would allow to arm J-11As with them as well.

[Wyvern]

2 hours ago, okopanja said:

Actually this would be a wonderful opportunity, since SD-10 is otherwise known as PL-12. This would allow to arm J-11As with them as well.

the PL-12 is already in the game. plus you can already arm the J-11A with them, there is a mod for that on the UF.
 

[Napillo]

6 hours ago, Wyvern said:

you can already arm the J-11A with them

not really, you can't ask ground crew to put it on. They could change that.

[Torbernite]

6小时前，Mike_Romeo说：

Would it be possible to create a second SD-10 missile using the new scheme so that we the players can try and test the differences ? I mean, Open beta is there to break stuff down.... so why not ? Regards multiplayer, servers can easily restrict missiles if they want so this shouldn't be a concern.

Good idea. The only problem is it doesn't follow the tradition (developers to make the decision with or without a vote and then deliver a decided product), but it shouldn't be a problem. This would be a great trial in DCS for the first time to allow public players to evaluate which model is more acceptable, maybe also to push ED to improve the 120 scheme if we find it needed.

[Napillo]

Does the SD-10 schema use the radar calculations used for the KLJ radar?

[F-2]

27 minutes ago, Napillo said:

Does the SD-10 schema use the radar calculations used for the KLJ radar?

Some pictures have emerged of J-11a with pl-12 being carried centerline. SU-30mk2 have been carrying them the last few years.

[Napillo]

21 minutes ago, F-2 said:

pictures have emerged

not related to my question at all. I know it has the seeker of the R-77.

[Wyvern]

5 hours ago, Napillo said:

not related to my question at all. I know it has the seeker of the R-77.

He was not replying to you

 

[Schmidtfire]

@uboats
We need to get a better grip on how the API shift will affect the SD-10.

As for voting. Players want different things. Some users want SD-10 with double performance, others want the most realistic SD-10 possible.

I think a good first step will be to discuss if the new change will make it behave more realistic?

For starters, we know It is not an Amraam. Without knowing all the details, it sounds more like a Chinese R-77 clone with another body/rocket motor aimed for export market. If Aliexpress sold FOX3 missiles, this would probably fit the bill. Actual performance is difficult to get figures for, but the most common is that it is somewhat competitive with the old AIM-120B model. Not saying it’s a bad missile, but would be nice to have the characteristics that sets it apart from the 120.

 

 

[okopanja]

@uboatswould it be technically possible to evaluate effectivness of pl-12 on new API at least in SP?

[Coxy_99]

On 5/3/2023 at 9:34 PM, uboats said:

So I'd like to see your suggestions.

Biggest mistake you could EVER make 

 

If not all missiles should be on the new API regardless anyway.

[Napillo]

13 hours ago, Schmidtfire said:

nice to have the characteristics that sets it apart from the 120

It seems to behave more like the 120B, of course the missile is thicker than the 120, but that's about it, steering fin seems to have a notch and maybe it's slightly longer, giving it better steering, it should be able to pull more G, and it can go faster, but it's a bit less aerodynamic since it's thicker, hence why it's better at higher altitudes - larger steering fins give it a better turn rate, and the dual impulse motor helps it pick up more speed. Those things should auto loft. 

[My_Name_Jeff]

On 5/3/2023 at 3:34 PM, uboats said:

Recently, I saw several players reported issues for sd-10. Since we haven't changed it for a while, i'm afraid it's probably due to the scheme currently used by sd-10 only not updated/maintained.

So I'd like to see your suggestions.

As a new player, I really don't know what missile scheme is, can you explain?

[Torbernite]

2023/5/9 AM11点16分，Napillo说：

It seems to behave more like the 120B, of course the missile is thicker than the 120, but that's about it, steering fin seems to have a notch and maybe it's slightly longer, giving it better steering, it should be able to pull more G, and it can go faster, but it's a bit less aerodynamic since it's thicker, hence why it's better at higher altitudes - larger steering fins give it a better turn rate, and the dual impulse motor helps it pick up more speed. Those things should auto loft. 

It's just dual thrust engine like 120 or even sparrows. We don't have dual pulse motor in game for now.