About to give up on the Pico 4

[Qcumber]

When I first got the Pico 4 I thought DCS looked terrible. It has taken me a while to understand how to get the best out of it. Now I am finding it is really good and much better than my rift s. I am now limited in DCS by my GPU and have to balance quality for performance. With an rx 6700 I use "medium" quality on VD and enable the new snapdragon upscaler. It is smooth and the quality is good enough for me at the moment, although a bit "fuzzy" in places. Obviously I would like to push it to godlike but that is not happening with an rx 6700. I get 72 FPS (w/o SSW) sometimes dropping to about 60 when it gets very busy. If I increase to "high" on VD then I get slightly better quality but need to use SSW for 45/90 FPS. 

The pico 4 is not really designed for PCVR so does need a lot more work than a headset with DP. That said it took me a really long time to work out how to get the best out of my rift s. 

[Lange_666]

3 hours ago, Qcumber said:

I get 72 FPS (w/o SSW) sometimes dropping to about 60 when it gets very busy.

Don't you get stutter when the drop happens?
I can't get a stutter free VR play when FPS is set without a cap, not in my previous Rift-S and not in the Pico 4.

[Qcumber]

14 minutes ago, Lange_666 said:

Don't you get stutter when the drop happens?

Sometimes. But this does depend on the mission and the map. On Caucasus and Normandy, with relatively low number of assets, it's pretty stable. On the channel map with lots of clouds and assets it is not as smooth. I think this an issue of DCS not being very well set up for VR and my relatively weak GPU. However, based on some of the other threads on this forum, players with very high end systems also have issues. 

[Dave317]

To be fair my issues aren't just with dcs.  I've got Il2 but hardly ever use it.  I get the same results with Il2 even though its far less taxing than dcs.  It feels like a setting is wrong somewhere as I can't believe all these reviews are wrong. 

Edited May 13, 2023 by Dave317

[Qcumber]

1 hour ago, Dave317 said:

To be fair my issues aren't just with dcs

I also play the other combat flight sim and don't really want to compare them as I like both equally for different reasons. My Pico 4 runs OK on both, although DCS is more demanding on my GPU. I'm happy to share my settings if that might help. 

[shagrat]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Qcumber:

I also play the other combat flight sim and don't really want to compare them as I like both equally for different reasons. My Pico 4 runs OK on both, although DCS is more demanding on my GPU. I'm happy to share my settings if that might help. 

That would be very helpful for newcomers, especially, but also help compare between setups.

I am on the fence, with a Pico4 and getting an idea of the settings would help, a lot.

[Qcumber]

14 hours ago, shagrat said:

That would be very helpful for newcomers, especially, but also help compare between setups.

OK. I am away from home now, so I will try to remember my settings. I will aim to post some screenshots when I get back. 

Settings are for 72 fps with no SSW

DCS settings

Multithreading version latest open beta

Terrain: medium

Terrain textures: high

Civilian traffic: off

Water: low

Visible range: medium

Heat blur: off

Shadows: low

Resolution: lowest setting possible (non-VR setting, monitor only)

MSAA: off

DoF: off

Lens effects: flare

Motion blur: off

SSAA, SSLR, SSAO: off

Clutter/grass: min/off

Forest, details, scenery: all at about 80%

Pre-load radius: about 70k

Chimney smoke density: off

Gamma: 1.6-1.8

Anisotropic Filtering: off

Terrain object shadows: off or flat

Cockpit global illumination: off

Rain droplets: off

Virtual Desktop

Quality: medium

Bitrate: 150 (this will depend on your network)

Auto select bitrate: on

Frame rate: 72Hz

SGSR: on (this uses the headset to upscale to ultra)

SSW: off (on gives a lot of ghosting)

Increase contrast range (or whatever it is called): off

Other settings on the right side set to "on" (sorry, I can’t remember what they all are now).

Settings for 45/90 fps with SSW

DCS: same as above except MSAA x2

VD: same as above but 90 Hz, bitrate 80-100, and SSW "on". 

This works well but I get some ghosting and occasional lag/jitter when moving my head quickly. There are transient spikes on the DCS latency overlay. Otherwise, the latencies remain fairly smooth. 

Overall gameplay

These settings get me 72 fps (no SSW), 45/90 fps (SSW setup) and an overall latency (on VD) of about 45-60 ms. Individual VD latencies: game 10-16 ms; compression 4-5 ms; network 3-5 ms; decompression 5-6 ms (if this gets to above 10ms try reducing the streaming bitrate to 80-100 Mbps). I realise these figures do not add up to 45-60 but VD state that various system latencies add up to about 10-15 ms. I am not sure if it makes any difference but I minimise running anything else in the background to reduce system load. Appearance is generally smooth and little or no stuttering. 

These are based on relatively simple missions with the Caucasus or Normandy 2 maps, or at higher altitudes on The Channel or Marianas maps. Single player only. I have not tried multiplayer. I need to play this more in more complex missions. With the bomber intercept mission in the K4 over the Channel (lots of cloud cover and about 50 planes) the fps was about 60-65 (latency 60 ms) for most of the mission (72 Hz no SSW setup). 

Flying low over Dover in The Channel map the fps is a lot lower 30-40fps (SSW inc to about 70fps) with a latency of about 70 ms. Similar frame rates and latency when flying over London (Normandy 2). With these frame rates, I get more stuttering and lag when I move my head. Also, a lot of ghosting laterally when looking at 90 degrees and rolling. Particularly with planes flying on a parallel trajectory (appear as flickering/stretched) or distant planes (double dots, flickering). I don't think this is an issue which is related to the Pico 4 though, as it has been reported in another thread and there does not appear to be any clear resolution, other than a potential DCS MT bug. 

Overall, the performance in terms of fps and smoothness is similar to what I experienced with the rift s. There are some compression artefacts but these are not ones that I really notice without looking for them. For example, occasionally when trees are being generated, there is a fractal-type pattern which soon disappears. I need to try adjusting my settings to increase the visible range to see if this helps without impacting on performance. Text overlay sometimes looks a little blurred but text in the cockpit is crisp, especially when zoomed in. I plan on going back to look at the rift s again to try some more direct comparisons with the Pico 4. 

Sorry if this is a bit complex. I'll try to do something more structured and maybe record a video when I return.  

 

 

Edited May 14, 2023 by Qcumber

[VirusAM]

On 5/6/2023 at 1:18 PM, Dave317 said:

I got my Pico 4 about a week ago and I can't get the thing to look good.

I used to get decent frames on my G1 but with the Pico I'm getting about 20 FPS with 180-200 ms of latency!  No matter whether I use USB via the streaming app or wifi it's a mess.  The resolution is terrible too with everything blurry which doesn't change if I cange the resolution settings. 

Any ideas where I am going wrong before it gets retuned?

I gave up on the Pico4 for similar reasons...

I tried almost everything but nothing worked

[Dave317]

I think I'm going to have to admit defeat with this one. 

I've tried absolutely everything including virtual desktop with a usb link cable.  The quality is worse than my g1 and nothing I do makes it better.

I guess my 6800xt just isn't up to it and you really do need a 4090.

[Dave317]

So after threatening it that I was going to send it back it appears to be working slightly better. 

I'm using virtual desktop tethered by a dedicated USB 3 cable. 

Also using open composite so steam vr doesn't open. 

Visually it looks far better and the latency is down to under 60 but I'm getting terrible stutters especially when looking through the rotor disc or propellor. 

I also can't get open xr toolkit to open where it did before.   Anything I'm doing wrong?

[Gryzor]

I notice a delay response when displacing my head (not head turning, only moving to sides or front-back), that occours in MT version. But not in ST. OpenXR version.

I´m using RJ45 tethered to my router, with good latencies (ethernet 1ms, total 42-43 ms).

Any fix please? 

[Lange_666]

36 minutes ago, Dave317 said:

1: I'm using virtual desktop tethered by a dedicated USB 3 cable. 

2: Also using open composite so steam vr doesn't open.

1: Ethernet to USB 3 and then to the headset?

2: How do you do that again?

[Dave317]

No just usb from my pc to the headset.   There is a video on you tube how to do it.  It took me a while to figure out and it's a bit of a pain but it works.

I tried the open composite today.  

Have a read of this https://mbucchia.github.io/OpenXR-Toolkit/opencomposite.html

[Lange_666]

Do you have a link to that video?

I might give OpenComposite a go tonight.

Yesterday i also had it with the Pico, DCS didn't ran smooth, terrain sometimes shows a wave effect when quickly rolling the airplane, sometimes terrible ghosting, quite some stutters when frametimes start to show little spikes etc... Not good enough. Was thinking about returning it. But then last flight all of sudden was OK. Didn't change anything settings wise but played around with the runtimes. Last one was OpenVR.
So this morning i did another flight and the smoothness was gone again but still OpenVR. Don't know how this happens. Stream seems to be steady a 866Mhz...
Running in MSFS isn't smooth either, lot less ghosting but also stutters (but then i had that with the Rift-S also).
Then i ran IL-2 and much to my amazement it ran supersmooth (through SteamVR), back to DCS, same as before, not good. Back to IL-2, smooth again...
Then decided to run a few others that i still have installed. Elite Dangerous, same as IL-2, smooth run. Same for Assetto Corsa. Back to DCS, again not good.

So it's not the headset but more of a DCS thingy... (ST runs better then MT though).

[Dave317]

This is the link I used. 

The apk thing threw me for a while.   You need to connect your pico to your pc via streaming assistant so it shows up in your file explorer.

Download the file and drop it into your downloads folder on the pico.  Then in the headset go into the downloads folder and run the apk file.  This will bring up a new settings app on the headset where you can turn usb tethering on.  Seems you need to turn usb tethering on every time you use the pico though. 

[Qcumber]

1 hour ago, Dave317 said:

Seems you need to turn usb tethering on every time you use the pico though. 

VD does not officially support usb tethering so you might not get the best experience. I would advise keeping it as simple as possible using the setup guide from VD. https://discord.gg/PtnY2qJ9

Set all DCS options to minimum and get it running stable before increasing any settings. 

I have tried streaming assistant with usb tethering and it works OK but it is a bit blurry, even with sharpening added. I have tried using openxr toolkit to control resolution, upscaling and sharpening and this is better, but still not as good as VD yet.

1 hour ago, Lange_666 said:

I might give OpenComposite a go tonight

You don't need open composite for DCS anymore. It runs openxr native now. You can just run openxr straight off. It should work OK. Follow the guide here:

https://mbucchia.github.io/OpenXR-Toolkit/

[Dave317]

So how do you just run openxr without steam opening? 

[Qcumber]

12 minutes ago, Dave317 said:

So how do you just run openxr without steam opening? 

Steam VR runs openxr. This should run DCS in openxr by default. If it doesn't, you can set openxr as the default runtime. It is an option in the steam VR settings. It might be under the advanced settings but I can't remember and don't have access to my computer. 

If you have DCS on steam then you can launch it from within the games tab in VD. If not then you can run steam VR from the VD settings then run DCS from the desktop. These should then run DCS in steam VR using openxr. Open xr toolkit will then be activated in DCS. 

Edited May 16, 2023 by Qcumber

[Lange_666]

50 minutes ago, Qcumber said:

VD does not officially support usb tethering so you might not get the best experience. I would advise keeping it as simple as possible using the setup guide from VD. https://discord.gg/PtnY2qJ9

Thanks for the link but Discord is just a jungle of messages for me where i just can't find my way. When somebody's says it's on Discord, i'm over and done.

Edited May 16, 2023 by Lange_666

[Dave317]

I have been using dcs via steam vr while using the pico.  This morning I tried open composite after reading a pussy on here about it.  It's a lot smother with better visuals using open composite. 

I thought the point of open composite was to bypass steam vr being a bottleneck. 

[Qcumber]

2 hours ago, Dave317 said:

I have been using dcs via steam vr while using the pico

Is that using streaming assistant or VD?. I have open composite installed but set to "use steam VR" as I need per game install for IL-2. I will try running it as open composite and see if it works for me. 

 

[Dave317]

Virtual desktop.  It seems the best solution for me at the minute. 

[SebastianR]

VD recommends Amd 22.11.2 drivers for 5000/6000 series

[Lange_666]

This evening i took some time to set up the direct USB-C connection following the video (had seen that before).

- Quite a bit of clicking and pointing to do before it ran but when it did, 1200Mhz connection all the time!

Then took the effort to set up a connection through an ethernet cable plugged into the router and from there to an RJ45 to USB-C adapter.

- This is simply the the best solution to get a wired link set up. 1200Mhz steady all the time! + (and a big + actually), the less point and click because Virtual Desktop sees this as an internet connection so no need to have it first connect through Wifi where then the Wifi can then be turned of like with the USB-C cable but just Wifi off in the Pico all together.

- RJ45 to USB-C adapter in the ethernet port of the router.
- USB-C into the Pico
- Switch Wifi Off in the Pico.
These 3 steps above need to be done only once.

To play:
- Start VD on PC
- Start VD in the Pico
- Connect to the network like you always did, works now even with Wifi on the Pico OFF.
- Start SteamVR in VD (outside VD it often does not detect the Pico) and then DCS ST in OpenVR mode (best option regarding stutter so far, OpenXR in ST and OpenXR in MT give more stutter).

You don’t have to download or run any external program neither on the Pico, nor on the PC.

Overall a lot smoother experience then through Wifi.

Next up:
Replace dedicated router by a simple Gigabit switch.

Edited May 17, 2023 by Lange_666

[Dave317]

I thought I got it working alright but it's still stuttering and getting double images.  Pretty sure I've exhausted every option and setting now.   Tried my g1 again just to message sure and it's so much better.  The pico has far better tracking but the picture quality for me is not good at all.   Sorry pico you've got to go back.