Small(!) Problem with default seating position and mirror adjustment range

[Hiob]

I my humble opinion the default head position in the front cockpit is too low. When you turn around your head and look at your headrest and compare that with the headposition from the outside view (or RL photos), I'd estimate it to be 10-15 cm low.

Of course I know, that that can be adjusted and the default position can be customized and saved, BUT....

when you raise the camera to a desirable position the adjustment range of the mirrors (especially the middle one) is insufficiant. You can only see yourself but not above your head/behind the aircraft.

I think that this whole stuff could need a bit of tweaking.

(My Observations are from the B-model. Don't know if it's the same in the A)

Cheers!

[draconus]

12 minutes ago, Hiob said:

I my humble opinion the default head position in the front cockpit is too low. When you turn around your head and look at your headrest and compare that with the headposition from the outside view (or RL photos), I'd estimate it to be 10-15 cm low.

HB knows and did it on purpose to not force players' faces into the canopy rail

[Hiob]

1 hour ago, draconus said:

HB knows and did it on purpose to not force players' faces into the canopy rail

Hmm, I don't see any advantages in the current default and no disadvantage in raising the head. In fact the visibility over the nose improves. But that is all a matter of taste and can be adjusted individually.

Except the adjustment range of the mirror doesn't fit at all. Even in the default head positions it is not great.

[Callsign JoNay]

3 hours ago, Hiob said:

Hmm, I don't see any advantages in the current default and no disadvantage in raising the head

If you raised the head 10-15cm the canopy bow would be directly in your line of sight. You wouldn't be able to see forward. I'd rather be able to see forward than over the nose. Also you wouldn't be able to see the heading tape/bug in the VDI. The only downside of the higher POV is you can't see the yaw string, but we have the slip indicator anyway. Default view also gives acceptable visibility over the nose for CVN recoveries.

[captain_dalan]

On 5/16/2023 at 5:59 PM, Callsign JoNay said:

If you raised the head 10-15cm the canopy bow would be directly in your line of sight. You wouldn't be able to see forward. I'd rather be able to see forward than over the nose. Also you wouldn't be able to see the heading tape/bug in the VDI. The only downside of the higher POV is you can't see the yaw string, but we have the slip indicator anyway. Default view also gives acceptable visibility over the nose for CVN recoveries.

I'd take the over the nose view rather then the VID view any days of the week. If you fly by the slip indicator rather then the yaw string, you'll be flying catchup the entire time, except in straight line flight. 

On 5/16/2023 at 12:12 PM, Hiob said:

I my humble opinion the default head position in the front cockpit is too low. When you turn around your head and look at your headrest and compare that with the headposition from the outside view (or RL photos), I'd estimate it to be 10-15 cm low.

Of course I know, that that can be adjusted and the default position can be customized and saved, BUT....

when you raise the camera to a desirable position the adjustment range of the mirrors (especially the middle one) is insufficiant. You can only see yourself but not above your head/behind the aircraft.

I think that this whole stuff could need a bit of tweaking.

(My Observations are from the B-model. Don't know if it's the same in the A)

Cheers!

OP, i use these custom view angles myself. They give you a more upwards view. You can see the nose well. And, as your nose is pointing slightly up when flying due to positive angle of attack, you have no issues with the canopy bow to look ahead. In fact, the default view IMO, has you looking a bit up? 

Anyways, try it (just make a backup of your default views first) and see if you find it useful. And feel free to further adjust it to your needs. 

EDIT: this is how it looks in one of my recordings BTW:

SnapViews.lua

Edited May 17, 2023 by captain_dalan

[Hiob]

Hey guys, thanks for the input.

But, I feel you missed my point slightly. My main issue is not that I don’t find a good position in the cockpit. I‘m very familiar with the snapview.lua and have tweaked my camera positions to my needs.

The main issue here is (again, imho), that the adjustment range for the main mirror doesn’t match. Let‘s put it this way - it only works for very short pilots. When I put the head camera where I feel fit, I can’t tilt the mirror enough (upwards) to see actually above my helmet.

I‘ll add pictures later to better illustrate the issue….

[IronMike]

11 hours ago, Hiob said:

Hey guys, thanks for the input.

But, I feel you missed my point slightly. My main issue is not that I don’t find a good position in the cockpit. I‘m very familiar with the snapview.lua and have tweaked my camera positions to my needs.

The main issue here is (again, imho), that the adjustment range for the main mirror doesn’t match. Let‘s put it this way - it only works for very short pilots. When I put the head camera where I feel fit, I can’t tilt the mirror enough (upwards) to see actually above my helmet.

I‘ll add pictures later to better illustrate the issue….

We're not intending to change the default view (as it is the overall best compromise for most), however we can take a look at the mirrors. But it is possible that their range was limited, and it will stay like that, I need to double check. Mirrors were not really used like in the sim, from what I recall from discussions with our SME, the main purpose of the mirrors was to glance at your wings, specifically for stuff like checking if DLC is out etc, so they were adjusted mainly to provide this view (not to spot a bandit behind you in a dogfight).

[draconus]

12 hours ago, Hiob said:

Let‘s put it this way - it only works for very short pilots.

You got problem with that?!

[Hiob]

1 hour ago, draconus said:

You got problem with that?!

No! No offense intended!

1 hour ago, IronMike said:

We're not intending to change the default view (as it is the overall best compromise for most), however we can take a look at the mirrors. But it is possible that their range was limited, and it will stay like that, I need to double check. Mirrors were not really used like in the sim, from what I recall from discussions with our SME, the main purpose of the mirrors was to glance at your wings, specifically for stuff like checking if DLC is out etc, so they were adjusted mainly to provide this view (not to spot a bandit behind you in a dogfight).

Very cool. Thank you. That is really everything I could ask for!

[fat creason]

If you're waiting for the mirrors to let you know someone is on your 6...you screwed up. You'd be better off ejecting at that point. The mirrors are not intended to be used for seeing bandits behind you.

Edited May 18, 2023 by fat creason

[Callsign JoNay]

20 hours ago, captain_dalan said:

I'd take the over the nose view rather then the VID view any days of the week. If you fly by the slip indicator rather then the yaw string, you'll be flying catchup the entire time, except in straight line flight. 

Meh. I don't coordinate turns based off the needle or string, I learned to coordinate (as best I can) through muscle memory. I only use the needle to trim out slip from an asymmetrical load, and the needle is responsive enough for that. Your custom view is nice, but we still have to remove the HUD camera to see the string, which I'm not a fan of. The default head position still works best for me. I can see ahead of me, and no part of the analog gauges or displays are hidden from my LOS.

As to the OP's post, I would also welcome some increased range of motion in the mirrors. Not that I'm using them to look for bandits at my 6, but the current range of motion is so limited that the feature is basically just novelty at this point.

[captain_dalan]

12 hours ago, Hiob said:

No! No offense intended!

Very cool. Thank you. That is really everything I could ask for!

Just out of curiosity, care to share a screenshot of your view with the mirror tilted up all the way? Just for comparison? 

6 hours ago, Callsign JoNay said:

Your custom view is nice, but we still have to remove the HUD camera to see the string, which I'm not a fan of.

Sadly there's no other way for us non-VR users. And how do you handle edge-of-the-envelope cases with no clear view of the nose? I, for the life of me, can't handle 25 units and above, without a clear view of what the nose is doing, and judging simply by the roll oscillations is usually way to reactive for me, or alternatively my corrections are too slow to compensate, i only end up worsening the oscillations. 30 units and above? Solid look at the nose is a must!

[Callsign JoNay]

53 minutes ago, captain_dalan said:

And how do you handle edge-of-the-envelope cases with no clear view of the nose?

I dunno, I just do. You don't have time to think up there. If you think, you're dead. 

[captain_dalan]

5 minutes ago, Callsign JoNay said:

I dunno, I just do. You don't have time to think up there. If you think, you're dead. 

[draconus]

On 5/16/2023 at 12:12 PM, Hiob said:

You can only see yourself but not above your head/behind the aircraft.

You never said you look up for bandits so what's your use case?

[Hiob]

3 hours ago, draconus said:

You never said you look up for bandits so what's your use case?

Tbh, I don’t have a certain usecase in mind. I just find it mildly irritating to watch my helmeted face center frame like some self absorbed influencer that is about to apply lipstick….

That‘s why I emphasized the „small“ in small problem.

[Hiob]

7 hours ago, captain_dalan said:

Just out of curiosity, care to share a screenshot of your view with the mirror tilted up all the way? Just for comparison? 

This is the position relative to the head rest per default:

 

This is, where I feel it should be:

 

And this is my "problem" with the mirror:

 

Edited May 19, 2023 by Hiob

[captain_dalan]

2 hours ago, Hiob said:

This is the position relative to the head rest per default:

 

This is, where I feel it should be:

 

And this is my "problem" with the mirror:

 

 

I see what you mean, it seem like we have a very similar setup, with yours maybe being just a tad higher then mine, but not by much. I can post some comparable screenshots when i get home tonight. Have you tried what would happen if you reduce your distance from the frame a bit? Will the mirror catch less of your helmet then? 

[Hiob]

1 hour ago, captain_dalan said:

I see what you mean, it seem like we have a very similar setup, with yours maybe being just a tad higher then mine, but not by much. I can post some comparable screenshots when i get home tonight. Have you tried what would happen if you reduce your distance from the frame a bit? Will the mirror catch less of your helmet then? 

When I move the camera forward or backward (I don’t mean zoom but z-axis), I can make it work. But my whole point is that I shouldn’t adjust my seating/camera position to fit the mirror, but vice versa.

From my point of view it only needs a little additional range for upwards tilt. But the devs already said they will check. Which is great.

 

[captain_dalan]

On 5/19/2023 at 3:08 PM, Hiob said:

When I move the camera forward or backward (I don’t mean zoom but z-axis), I can make it work. But my whole point is that I shouldn’t adjust my seating/camera position to fit the mirror, but vice versa.

From my point of view it only needs a little additional range for upwards tilt. But the devs already said they will check. Which is great.

 

Yeah, i get it. This is my setup, and the seating position i tried to emulate based on some external shots of the cockpit. 
It's not ideal, but it does the work most of the time, especially as i don't refrain from turning the my seat when i play, and i don't dampen or eliminate either of the axis. Not even x-roll, so i can tilt my head when needed.  

[Spurts]

On 5/18/2023 at 9:39 PM, captain_dalan said:

 And how do you handle edge-of-the-envelope cases with no clear view of the nose? 

Muscle Memory.  That is where I spend all my dogfighting time.  I went from losing all my fights by doing that, to back off the AoA to never above 15 units (and winning some), to learning when I can go higher (helping me win more), to living higher and only going low if I need energy (and winning most through being stubborn)

[captain_dalan]

On 5/22/2023 at 3:26 AM, Spurts said:

Muscle Memory.  That is where I spend all my dogfighting time.  I went from losing all my fights by doing that, to back off the AoA to never above 15 units (and winning some), to learning when I can go higher (helping me win more), to living higher and only going low if I need energy (and winning most through being stubborn)

I have been accused of that in past myself!

But few things changed my mind. Periodic changes in the flight model and handling characteristics meant every now and then you need to relearn the muscle memory. But more importantly, was me getting a new stick in February. And the new stick worked very differently compared to the previous one. While my 2 previous sticks were stiff as well (relatively), they had a distinct "breakout" force, that is, in order to move the stick from center, a certain macroscopic force was required, and after the stick has been moved from center, the further stick input along an axis required a fairly linear force input. The new stick has very little breakout force, and moving it along an axis, requires progressively more force as you approach the limit, though not too much. I seriously consider removing the medium springs and installing the hard ones, if i could get a good solid mounting clam for my desk (i fly center mounted). 

Anyway, as i was about to have to relearn the muscle memory from scratch, i asked myself, why not stop flying states, and start flying to the states? That is, increase the force i apply to the stick not in fixed amounts, but only as much as needed to get the planes to do what i want them to do? And it worked. My precision has improved a lot, but in high-precision tasks like CASE I and AAR, but also in aerobatics. I've even started flying from the shoulder instead of the elbow, even though i have no extensions. This of course requires the stick to be perfectly centered between the legs and me minding my pulls (it's quite easy to drag a pull after all), but i'm satisfied with the results thus far. Especially with how seldom i fly these days. However, what this method of flying requires, especially at the edges of the envelope, is feedback. LOTS of feedback. And the persistent neutering of the cockpit sound and visual cues, doesn't make it any easier. So i like having a good look at my nose and the string. The string is of course of limited use at high AoA, but the nose will often betray the airplanes intentions long before any instruments do.  Hence the customized view points! And after all, who needs looking ahead when on the ground, what matters is looking ahead in the air, as that is 90% of where i spend my time in DCS