LIMA Hellfires....a little too maddog?

[AvroLanc]

Just starting this discussion, no bug report yet.. How is everyone finding the RF Hellfires?

With my very limited testing so far it seem the RF's are VERY indiscriminate in their target selection. When engaging a group of moving targets I get a LOBL launch...which is expected and a RF MSL TRACK message. However, in this condition my missiles were still hitting other target than the ones designated. 

Surely with a RF MSL TRACK and LOBL launch the missile seeker has already locked onto the passed off target....the chances of engaging the wrong target are therefore greatly reduced compared to the LOAL launch? 

Or not? Maybe the seeker performance is correct and RF Hellfire are just very indiscriminate? Is there a minimum recommended target spacing?

[dedlike.]

i had that impression aswell initialy HOWEVER it seems to be more of a geroge thing, if i fire the limas myself into a realy dense group of enemys, it goes exactly after what i lased, i think the problem with geroge is that he lases before the TADS is even over the intended target making him miss even with the RF hellfires, or the RF hellfires finding the next best thing to where he actualy started the lase

(keep in mind, depedning on the slant angle shooting the laser over the target can resoult in the laser spoting more than 100m behind the target, and geroge just LOVES lasing everything exept the target)

Edited May 18, 2023 by dedlike.

[wired521]

2 hours ago, AvroLanc said:

Just starting this discussion, no bug report yet.. How is everyone finding the RF Hellfires?

With my very limited testing so far it seem the RF's are VERY indiscriminate in their target selection. When engaging a group of moving targets I get a LOBL launch...which is expected and a RF MSL TRACK message. However, in this condition my missiles were still hitting other target than the ones designated. 

Surely with a RF MSL TRACK and LOBL launch the missile seeker has already locked onto the passed off target....the chances of engaging the wrong target are therefore greatly reduced compared to the LOAL launch? 

Or not? Maybe the seeker performance is correct and RF Hellfire are just very indiscriminate? Is there a minimum recommended target spacing?

This has been my initial experience as well (from the CPG position); although I could be doing something wrong. I setup a quick engagement against 4 ground targets at the default spacing from the ME and my first 2 shots (LOBL shots) hit the vehicle next to the one I lased. I haven't tried LOAL shots against stored targets yet, will be interested to hear how this is working for everyone.

[AvroLanc]

1 minute ago, wired521 said:

This has been my initial experience as well (from the CPG position); although I could be doing something wrong. I setup a quick engagement against 4 ground targets at the default spacing from the ME and my first 2 shots (LOBL shots) hit the vehicle next to the one I lased. I haven't tried LOAL shots against stored targets yet, will be interested to hear how this is working for everyone.

I've just done some more shots.... and actually LOBL's all hit my intended targets this time....and this with closely spaced vehicles. Maybe not as bad as first thought. Really enjoying how they've been modeled.

[wired521]

22 hours ago, AvroLanc said:

I've just done some more shots.... and actually LOBL's all hit my intended targets this time....and this with closely spaced vehicles. Maybe not as bad as first thought. Really enjoying how they've been modeled.

Awesome - I fixed my issue as well. I wasn't lasing long enough for the target data to store (face palm). I haven't tested using the RF Hellfires with a stored target as the acquisition source; hopefully it's possible to pull off indirect fire scenarios as well.

[AvroLanc]

Just to add another mornings experience…. The RFs are definitely a great tool in the toolset but they are far less flexible than the SALs and I can see clearly why we’ve not seen them widely used IRL. 

They very much need a good steady track and lase, almost always using IAT, if you don’t the data is still passed off but the chances of the missile not acquiring are high. This is why George CPG struggles so much. 

LOBL works well, but the tracking seems to rely on the side of the aircraft the missile is on vs which relative side the target is on. The missiles Track better when facing the target without own aircraft obstructing….which is a nice touch  

Using IAT as a human CPG and understanding their limitations…..they are awesome. And when the FCR arrives they will will really come into their own. George will do better with the FCR / RF combination too. 

I just wish we could take 2xRF and 6xSAL as an option…..

Edited May 19, 2023 by AvroLanc

[Raptor9]

The mixed missile loadouts were already being discussed internally prior to the update. We don't have any news to share on that regard, and are making no promises, but we are aware that different Hellfire types can be mixed on the same 4-rail launcher in real life.

We are also aware of some issues with George's use of radar Hellfires when not in a stationary/near-stationary hover.

[krazyj]

1 hour ago, Raptor9 said:

The mixed missile loadouts were already being discussed internally prior to the update. We don't have any news to share on that regard, and are making no promises, but we are aware that different Hellfire types can be mixed on the same 4-rail launcher in real life.

We are also aware of some issues with George's use of radar Hellfires when not in a stationary/near-stationary hover.

is there a hotfix being discussed for the RF Hellfires and George ? and even from a near stationary hover he cant hit the side of a barn

[Floyd1212]

Here is a video of some AGM-114L action I just captured in a MP server (Tempest Blue Flash).

It is a mix of me firing from the CPG seat at a hover, and also George firing while I'm in the back. Some missiles hit other targets, other missiles hit the ground. One missile was able to hit the designated target, which was actually fired by George, while I was moving.  Go figure.

I don't have a track as I got disconnected from the server shortly after I stopped recording.

I think I am doing everything right, but still not getting the results I do when flying a SP mission at the Target Range.

 

[admiki]

56 minutes ago, Floyd1212 said:

Here is a video of some AGM-114L action I just captured in a MP server (Tempest Blue Flash).

It is a mix of me firing from the CPG seat at a hover, and also George firing while I'm in the back. Some missiles hit other targets, other missiles hit the ground. One missile was able to hit the designated target, which was actually fired by George, while I was moving.  Go figure.

I don't have a track as I got disconnected from the server shortly after I stopped recording.

I think I am doing everything right, but still not getting the results I do when flying a SP mission at the Target Range.

 

I engaged a column that was moving in the open from right to left in SP. If I track manually (with slight wobble on TADS) every single missile would hit behind the column 100-150 meters. If I track with IAT, every missile hits its designated target

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

On 5/22/2023 at 2:09 AM, Floyd1212 said:

Here is a video of some AGM-114L action I just captured in a MP server (Tempest Blue Flash).It is a mix of me firing from the CPG seat at a hover, and also George firing while I'm in the back. Some missiles hit other targets, other missiles hit the ground. One missile was able to hit the designated target, which was actually fired by George, while I was moving.  Go figure.
I don't have a track as I got disconnected from the server shortly after I stopped recording.
I think I am doing everything right, but still not getting the results I do when flying a SP mission at the Target Range.

I have experienced similar results - it occasionally misses or hits another target. I get better results at higher altitude and with less trees and buildings near the target area. If you follow the trajectory of the missile, you'll see it flies quite a low profile near the end, even passing below treetop level if there are trees along the way. I'm thinking ground clutter might play a part here. (I experienced more misses in Normandy 2 map - lots of trees and buildings.) Hit and miss results can be expected and the radar HF has quite a few limitations.

Update: As expected - How the Lima Works (CasmoTV)

 

Edited May 28, 2023 by GrEaSeLiTeNiN

[NeedzWD40]

9 hours ago, Floyd1212 said:

Here is a video of some AGM-114L action I just captured in a MP server (Tempest Blue Flash).

Very, very, very odd question here: What are your results with IAT + LMC? My procedure has always been LMC first, first detent/quick laser pulse for approximate range and stabilize, then IAT. Through this method I've had few failures of my missiles to go for the intended target in multiplayer.

[Floyd1212]

I used IAT for a few of those in the video, then I think I used LMC for the last one, but I don’t think I was ever using both at the same time.

I’ll give it a try and see what happens. 

[admiki]

2 hours ago, NeedzWD40 said:

Very, very, very odd question here: What are your results with IAT + LMC? My procedure has always been LMC first, first detent/quick laser pulse for approximate range and stabilize, then IAT. Through this method I've had few failures of my missiles to go for the intended target in multiplayer.

Why would you go LMC then IAT? 

[NeedzWD40]

6 minutes ago, admiki said:

Why would you go LMC then IAT? 

Makes it easier to get steady for a good IAT track. If you need to refine your IAT center point it's also easier to move and re-track with LMC.

[Floyd1212]

Another video with better results tonight.  The first missile on the SA-8 was SAL to make sure it was no longer a threat, then I switched over to RF for the rest of the shots.

There were several differences from the last video, so lots of variables were changed at once, unfortunately.

• This is a smaller mission (300 units?) than before
• This is running on a dedicated server on my LAN, and I am the only player connected
• This is with a Hot Start, INU alignment was single-digits when I lifted off
• I used LMC and IAT when lasing targets

My next test will be the same mission with a cold start, and taking off before INU is fully aligned.

(Yes, I realize I was quite lucky casually evading that Sniper missile from the tank after taking out the SA-8.  )

[NeedzWD40]

6 hours ago, Floyd1212 said:

My next test will be the same mission with a cold start, and taking off before INU is fully aligned.

If at all possible, try to throw in some AI AH-64Ds with Ls. I was testing an enhancement to a scenario that has AI AH-64D and gave them a mixed load of K and L. The mission is quite busy and in singleplayer it can hit frames hard at times, so on a dedicated server I figured that would cause maximum desync. On a whim, I watched as they engaged a column with an SA-8 which also had some armor and trucks in it; the AI would do their usual "defending SAM" while launching a 114L at it, and the missile hit a tank instead! They continued to call out "defending SAM" but each missile hit a different vehicle in the column and only when the SA-8 was the last vehicle was it actually hit. The AI shot entirely L missiles for this engagement. Not conclusive, but now I have a theory.

My first go around was against an EWR site protected by an SA-8, AAA, and MANPADS. I locked the SA-8 first and my missile curved right, acquiring a MANPADS standing right and behind the SA-8. The next missile grabbed the big EWR behind the SA-8, then the next a power station by the EWR, followed by a truck behind the SA-8. Only when these were cleared did a missile actually go for the SA-8. There were some AAA pieces remaining after this, each on opposite sides of a hill, but the spread was far enough that the first missile went exactly for the target I wanted. However, the other target was just behind my line of sight, but I wondered what might happen if I lined up as close as possible to the hill and fired a missile to the left. Good lase on the dirt, target to the right for a left missile turn... And the missile picks up the gun pit on the opposite side of the hill.

This wasn't repeatable and my next round on a different target, tightly packed SA-8, SHORAD, AAA, etc. and missiles went exactly for SA-8, M48, as desired. I then tried a LOBL launch on a moving column, hit exactly on the lead vehicle. LOBL <2.5km on the now-static M60, right in. Now I'm confused as to what exactly may be going on; hits are hits, just not in the preferred order. I pick a new target and deliberately target short and far, no hits on either. Pick the center vehicle, a Snow Drift and... The missile curves into a AAA truck on the right edge. I found this curious so encouraged a left hand DBS and that missile grabs an SA-11 on the left side!

At this time, my theory is that in multiplayer, the missile is going active and grabbing the first target it finds at the edge of the passed position rather than the center of the position. I would say that this would be intended behavior, but as we know, it's not the same in single player, which leads me to believe there is something getting lost in the seeker logic in a network game.