AGM-114L and you: Why shouting "I cast magic missile!" doesn't work

[NeedzWD40]

BLUF: The AGM-114L Longbow HELLFIRE is an extremely advanced and capable missile, but is limited by the skill of the crew utilizing it.

Preface: The AGM-114L is an active radar guided missile, containing its own radar and inertial system, with the same warhead and motor as an AGM-114K. It is fire and forget, with no input or data links after launch. It can be cued with the TADS, FCR, or RFHO. However, it has a number of limitations that must be understood in order to maximize the weapon's effectiveness. It is not a perfect, flawless, Macross Missile Massacre, kill-all-16-tanks at once, infallible missile. Knowing when and where to use the AGM-114L is an important skill for any aspiring AH-64 crew.

The AGM-114L goes into a standby mode at aircraft powerup. This standby mode is largely irrelevant in the context of DCS, but incorporates a number of PBIT features, environmental data, positional data, and other important information. When fully loaded into the standby mode, the missile will be indicated with an S. It remains in this state until the missiles are actioned and given appropriate target data, where they will shift into prelaunch mode. Appropriate target data must be from the correct source, which is limited to the FCR, TADS, or RFHO (Radio Frequency HandOver). Target points, INS coordinates, or other mechanisms are not appropriate sources, as these do not have all the necessary data required for the missile. This data includes a different reference mechanism for the missile (it is not GPS guided nor MGRS/LL referenced), angular target rate, and other important information. Postlaunch occurs after the firing command has been given. This process encompasses all the necessary steps, mostly automatic, that result in the missile launching and heading toward the target.

The missile will automatically select LOBL or LOAL modes depending on the nature of the target. Moving targets will almost always attempt LOBL, while stationary targets are generally LOAL. LOBL is the longest range mode due to the nature of moving targets, and will be utilized when targets are moving or attempted when the range is less than 2.5km. Even though LOAL might be indicated <2.5km, the missile will immediately go to terminal acquisition after launch. Beware that when doing so, the missile may not go for the target you specifically want: the missile at this range can grab the first target it finds, which could be closer or further than your intended target. Utilizing the LOBL INHIBIT function can assist with hitting a target closer to a predicted position as opposed to the closest moving target to the position. A DBS trajectory will not occur at ranges less than 2.5km as the distance is too short for effective DBS. Beyond this range, DBS is utilized on stationary targets. DBS may also occur if a moving target stops mid-flight, but only if the range is greater than 2.5km. The trajectory of the missile is based upon the range to the target, where the maximum range will yield a maximum altitude of 3km. DBS trajectories can displace laterally by up to 1km.

There are three possible ways to provide targets to the AGM-114L: FCR, TADS, or RFHO. The FCR and TADS are the only self-designation options for the AGM-114L. The FCR is the only one to provide primary and secondary targets to the missile, and at that will only do so if the primary target is stationary. TADS and RFHO are the only ones capable of engaging stationary targets at maximum range. Currently, TADS is the only mechanism available, and thus can only be utilized by the CPG. To use it, the CPG must sight select TADS, at which point the "TYPE" field on the WPN page becomes disbarred, allowing RF to be selected (if SAL missiles are also loaded). Current best practices are to utilize the LMC to align the TADS on target, followed by IAT to track it. A steady lase is required for three seconds to properly pass target data to a missile and failure to do this can result in erratic target data. Hold the laser as long as possible to maximize accuracy. Do not wait long after the target data has been passed to fire, because the greater the time delay, the greater the error in target position. If you're expecting to be able to lase, then hide, do not expect the missile to hit exactly what you're aiming at. Acquire and fire as rapidly as possible. This will be vital when the RFHO arrives, as it too is vulnerable to data errors over time. Plan, assign, and engage rapidly.

When launching a missile, keep in mind the relative bearing of the target to the missile's centerline. If the target is to the left of the missile, a DBS profile can cause it to shift right, vice versa if the target is right. The clearer the picture the missile has, the better its overall accuracy. That means you might need to shift the aircraft left or right to present the missile with the best view. Further, if utilizing LOAL and DBS, you can launch missiles that approach from different directions by altering the heading to ensure a left or right trajectory. The closer to the missile's centerline, the more random it may be. Within DCS, after launch the missile immediately gives track warnings, so if the target has a RWR, it is likely to know about your missile. The missile has extremely limited energy potential, so targets with high agility (ie fighter jets) have a much narrower engagement envelope. However, nobody likes the rapid "deedle" of an active-radar homing missile on their RWR, so even a long range shot can alter a potential threat's decision matrix, and the AGM-114L is extremely hard to notch. Helicopters are more vulnerable and they must take significant evasive maneuvers to defeat the missile.

Moving targets, while easily tracked with moving target mode, present some additional difficulties. Currently, DCS ground vehicle behavior defaults to dispersion when a unit is hit from the air. In a mobile convoy, this means that after your first missile is shot, if you have any others in flight, they may not track the right target. This is due to a variance in predicted target position at launch versus actual position. The missile is likely to grab the target closest to predicted position, not actual position, so keep this in mind if engaging mobile units. This can also apply to static units that disperse after a hit.

If absolute precision is required and a target must be destroyed, then a SAL missile should be the primary tool utilized to destroy it. Remote engagements are far more flexible with SAL missiles, with greater options for masking and targeting. RF missiles are in their element when used against large columns of units where all must be destroyed in a rapid fashion, regardless of order. They should also be the preferred weapon against rotary wing threats and aerial threats, though with the understanding that the more aware the threat is, the less likely the chance of a successful hit.

[CallsignFrosty]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

[Derbroomaster]

12 hours ago, CallsignFrosty said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

I don't understand the point of posting this link. Can you elaborate?

[Toad McFrog]

3 hours ago, Derbroomaster said:

I don't understand the point of posting this link. Can you elaborate?

Posting a link to Dunning-Kruger would imply he believes that @NeedzWD40 over-estimates his knowledge of the topic (i.e., he is impugning his knowledge / ability to speak authoritatively regarding the technical aspects of the Apache or its weapons systems). 

[Derbroomaster]

2 minutes ago, Toad McFrog said:

Posting a link to Dunning-Kruger would imply he believes that @NeedzWD40 over-estimates his knowledge of the topic (i.e., he is impugning his knowledge / ability to speak authoritatively regarding the technical aspects of the Apache or its weapons systems). 

Indeed. I was attempting to see if @CallsignFrosty would care to provide more mature feedback.

[Toad McFrog]

1 minute ago, Derbroomaster said:

Indeed. I was attempting to see if @CallsignFrosty would care to provide more mature feedback.

Ah, apologies - I completely misread what you wrote as not understanding the implication.

[Derbroomaster]

You appear to have wanted to clarify, which I appreciate. Thank you.

[admiki]

2 hours ago, Derbroomaster said:

Indeed. I was attempting to see if @CallsignFrosty would care to provide more mature feedback.

I'll give Frosty benefit of the doubt in that maybe he posted that as a reference of all the people that think Lima is be-all-end-all-missile.

[Moxica]

I have had some success hitting hidden tanks by targeting adjacent Toyotas etc.., and sending more than one Lima on same target.
2nd. missile took out annoying, sneaky, hiding tank to my great satisfaction.
Probably because the *Toyota* was no longer there.

Edited May 21, 2023 by Moxica

[hotrod525]

 

Thanks for the in depth info  

A more graphical rep for those like me who can't read...
 

Edited May 22, 2023 by hotrod525

[Silvester.E]

Great information! Thanks, liked reading this. I hope ED will consider making it available to carry a mixed loadout on the rag. 6 SAL and 2 RF would be nice. 

Edited May 22, 2023 by Silvester.E

[NeedzWD40]

12 hours ago, hotrod525 said:

Thanks for the in depth info  

A more graphical rep for those like me who can't read...

What? You've got it all wrong! Here:

[rwbishUP]

14 hours ago, hotrod525 said:

 

Thanks for the in depth info  

A more graphical rep for those like me who can't read...
 

 

ROFLMBO        

[hotrod525]

18 hours ago, NeedzWD40 said:

What? You've got it all wrong! Here:

That's some quite impressive infographic skills

I Stand corrected Sir !

 

[NeedzWD40]

1 hour ago, hotrod525 said:

That's some quite impressive infographic skills

I worked hard to earn my Powerpoint Ranger tab with Slide Monkey device!

[ShuRugal]

On 5/22/2023 at 9:29 PM, NeedzWD40 said:

What? You've got it all wrong! Here:

This is S-rank quality meme material right here.

[poochies]

What’s meaning of DBS versus MT ? I’m assuming that’s when missile goes out wide to better scan the target 

thank you wise one 

[NeedzWD40]

11 hours ago, poochies said:

What’s meaning of DBS versus MT ? I’m assuming that’s when missile goes out wide to better scan the target 

MT is Moving Target and is the chosen mode whenever the target is in motion, it's a lot more accurate and easier for the missile to see. As a result, it will only have a loft and will not have lateral displacement. DBS or Doppler Beam Sharpening is the mechanism used to find a target when it's stationary. DBS requires an offset path as this is necessary to separate the target from background clutter. If the missile isn't terminal and a moving target stops, DBS is automatically activated.

[poochies]

awesome thank you for the info now how do I get one to curve left then next curve right to really mess with an SA 15 that shoots my missiles down ! 

[NeedzWD40]

26 minutes ago, poochies said:

how do I get one to curve left then next curve right to really mess with an SA 15 that shoots my missiles down ! 

To get a left curve, put the target to the right of your missile's centerline; a right curve is done by doing the opposite. Try to get to the edges just before the yaw limit inhibit, otherwise if it's close to center, the missile will roll the dice as to which direction it goes.

[FalcoGer]

Fine. Then explain why when shooting missiles, all shots misses a stationary target 100% of the time by the exact same offset of a few tens of meters, even after a good INU alignment, even with engines off. And then after an in flight INU reset and re-alignment it hits every time from the same position. and it's not like the target data is bad either. Camera is rock steady with IAT. but LMC has same results.

I don't think the INU has anything to do with this missile in the first place and yet, switching the inertial reference source gives different results.

And it's not that I shout "I cast magic missile". The targets can be in an open field, 6km away, stationary and I'm in a perfect hover with no obstructions wide and far. This thing is so unreliable that we went back to carrying laser hellfires, because at least those hit the target the first time every time. Fire and forget is nice and all, but really pointless if you get a 0% hit rate.

It seems like a bug, but I don't know enough about the missile to be sure. It's also hard to reproduce, because I don't fly with george and I don't know if the bug only occurs with multicrew. And it only happens after some time, and on busy servers, the track replays get very large very quickly.

Edited May 28, 2023 by FalcoGer

[Floyd1212]

Yeah, I feel like they aren't working as intended yet, which is fine, since this is EA after all.  I realize the 114L won't be the best solution for all applications, but I am seeing mixed results in settings where there should not be any issues (in my non-expert opinion).

I haven't really seen anyone from ED say they are working completely as intended or if they acknowledge there needs to be some tuning in certain scenarios.  If anyone at ED want's to test it out on a MP server, let us know.  I'm sure you would have plenty of pilots willing to shuttle you to the front lines to demonstrate the problems.

[TheGhostOfDefi]

Well they work pretty decent with george as pilot and me as cpg but i have just a slight feeling they behave a bit worse in MC. Can be just be a subjective thing. Im not that shure about it.

[NeedzWD40]

8 hours ago, FalcoGer said:

And it's not that I shout "I cast magic missile".

FYI, you can't shout "I cast fireball" either.

I kid, I kid.

But for your situation, I don't know if it's a desync issue, a multicrew issue, a multiplayer issue, a server issue, or a straight up bug. I've tried a lot of different things to get the missile to break and the only thing that consistently happens is a different target gets tagged or an obscurement to the seeker occurs. I've done cold ship starts, repairs, in flight INU resets and launching before INU has fully spun up, complex, high unit count missions with lots of scripting on a server and I can never induce absolute misses that can't be blamed on anything but a failure on my own part. The only thing I've yet to try is rigorous multicrew testing, which I could see as being the most likely culprit of problems. A side-by-side video of what the CPG and pilot are seeing could at least give some pointers to what might be occurring (and if such a video exists, it would be worth sharing here) and how to potentially replicate the problems. A tacview would even be useful, especially if it's from both perspectives.

I think it's also worth noting that we may simply have to temper our expectations when we put a complex multicrew module into a dynamic, fast-paced, multiplayer mission with lots of players in the current iteration of DCS. There's a lot of games that struggle with these kinds of demands, and many of them have far more funding than DCS ever will.

7 hours ago, Floyd1212 said:

Yeah, I feel like they aren't working as intended yet, which is fine, since this is EA after all.  I realize the 114L won't be the best solution for all applications, but I am seeing mixed results in settings where there should not be any issues (in my non-expert opinion).

There's definitely some issues that need to be resolved, of that I have no doubt. George's usage (or lack thereof) of them, some very odd quirks in target prioritization, and a host of other issues are there. All I can say is that for everything I've used them for so far, it's working about as I'd expected for the sight system we can use with them.

And on a separate note, I'd like to reiterate that I'm by no means an expert or an experienced specialist with the AH-64D, AGM-114L, rockets, warfare or fantasy role playing (I do occasionally shout "I cast magic missile" though). You are free to discount me as a "duded-up, egg-sucking gutter trash" and dismiss everything I say. My desire, at a minimum, is to provide some assistance to those who might be struggling or having difficulties with understanding why things might be the way they are. That you can find in various publications like FM 1-100, FM 1-140, FM 3-04, JP 3-30 and a host of other open source information. Suffice to say that for a video game, some things just don't make sense because we're missing the entire context in the entire "why" equation. In some cases, we may not be able to know for certain why a limitation exists or why a piece of equipment works the way it does; we can only make a reasonable guess based upon similar data.

Edited May 29, 2023 by NeedzWD40

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

Just a casual simmer, for what it's worth - Did more testing in (South Atlantic map, coastal where there is less ground clutter like trees). Unlimited Limas, active pause hover, stationary targets > 2.5km, within firing parameters, playing as CPG, no LMC or IAT. Pretty good hit rates like 80-90%. If it missed, it might hit a target nearby but it could also hit the intended target at the 2nd try (it did not keep missing or hitting the same wrong spot). At one time, the second target fired at in succession was hit even as it moved away after the first target was hit. So at first, I thought some coding logic was off but it seems quite fine to me at the moment, as in the Lima's radar appears to be 'searching' (smart) and doesn't get stuck in some logic. I have used IAT and LMC with the Limas in earlier tests and if I recall correctly, results were similar but hit rates were lower with moving targets as one might expect. Trees and buildings in built-up areas like Normandy 2 were what really reduced the hit rate for me.