Just had my first try out with the BF-109 K-4......................

[Toastfrenzy]

After the TF-51, then the P-51 followed by the Spitfire, how hard could it be?

A ground loop on the first take off....walked away from it

The 2nd attempt went ok until the wheels left the ground, with full right rudder and full right stick and a bit of a forward push I managed to survive the crazy attitude take off only to fall foul, 5 mins later, of forgetting to switch the auto prop governor on after take off - not that I knew this at the time.....

3rd attempt lifted off with more speed, less of the jaunty attitude but still required a lot of right stick and right rudder - far too much IMO so I must be doing something wrong - forgetting something? I did however mange to land it rather successfully so it's not all bad.

 

I stopped at the 3 attempts and will continue later on.

 

 

[Komet_82]

Just keep on going, it will pay out after the XX attempt

The advice I found on one of the YT tutorials that helped me most was, wheel brakes till 100kmh and from there on everything with the ruder and no breaks...... that solved my struggling on take off

further a big advantage is to have toe brakes at your pedals. I could not do it without.

Good luck

[GPatricks]

I remember thinking it was impossible when I first tried her, then after MANY YT videos and reads here we came to an understanding.. IIRC it was prop decreased pitch, gradual power increase, lots of right stick and some rudder... becomes natural after a while.

[grafspee]

K-4 has small rudder at low speed is very ineffective. Initial roll do with limited power or use differential braking to keep it straight , elevator trim full nose down.

Once you get speed up, tail will start rising then you need to put a little back pressure on stick to slow down tail rising speed, otherwise gyroscopic effect will swing plane to the left. But most important is elevator trimm to be set full nose down otherwise it will pitch up hard and tend to stall at lift off.

Edited June 5, 2023 by grafspee

[Ala13_ManOWar]

I believe by now every pilot more or less has its own method, and each one is different as you see by tips here, but…

 

- if you like to use manual prop pitch in take off, use something like 11:30 pitch (you know the kind of presentation this instrument has), 12 can be used but it's less controllable. Once you master it it's quite safe to use even the auto setting,

- of course make sure your tail wheel is locked and well locked, wheel facing forward by letting it move a bit straight forward when you're in place,

- back stick all the way but watch it since it speeds up quite quickly and about 100Km/H it'll start wanting to fly but you shouldn't allow it, plus some right stick if you like to remove some pressure on left main wheel, but if tail rises it'll be the other way around so be careful with that. It seems you describe a stalled too soon lift off so careful with that,

- radiators manually opened as per manual if you like, just remember like auto pitch once airborne here it's the same and wide opened radiators has some to do with aerodynamics and your trim, actually, but that's more of a concern once airborne and speeding up, there you'll start noticing a nose up attitude with radiators opened so watch it. Radiators auto are fine once mastered,

- and very important, at first try 1.15 Ata to take off, more than enough with a clean aeroplane, and after you master it go 1.2, 1.3, but never use MW50 nor more Ata than that. Torque is very wild and as fellow members already said tail rudder is small (and this is the taller version… ) so you don't have that much control. If you let Ata go crazy 1.4 or more, or MW50 to jump in as it does, it's uncontrollable. Once you know the thing you can do many crazy stuff, but by then you'll know already the response you'll get, until that just keep it on the safe side.

 

Good luck!!

Edited June 6, 2023 by Ala13_ManOWar

[grafspee]

@Ala13_ManOWar It is possible to take off at 1.8ata so don't say that plane is uncontrollable at high power take offs.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

@grafspee Read what I wrote, the whole of it .

[rforce]

Make sure that under „special „options takeoff-Assistent is set to zero

after the latest Update it is set to 100

 

 

[Toastfrenzy]

Wow, thanks for all the help, really appreciated. Reading all the replies I can see where I have made errors.

Trim too far back maybe

Prop to 1230

Too much power 1.4 at least maybe and then WOT in desperation 

Rotated too early for sure

Stick was back, but I probably flew the tail too early

Sure I left MW off - but the pre take off says on IIRC?

I did leave rads in Auto - I'm trying to make all my HOTAS buttons the same, easy where most have a toggle function but the BF mainly has on off so working through the most used and amending adding as I go.

I'm sure I recently checked all my Props for Auto rudder etc after updating a week or so ago - but will check again - does this happen after every update?

Just logged on and checked, the only Props set to 100\auto were the P-47 and A8 - I've not used either yet.

Also in my haste to get in the cockpit - accepted bad weather for my first two attempts  - Normandy blanket fog, when I got airborne on the 2nd go and after I dead sticked myself - glided back to the airfield location then got disorientated with the fog cover and lawn darted myself. It was a no fly day for sure.

Edited June 6, 2023 by Toastfrenzy

[Ala13_ManOWar]

2 hours ago, Toastfrenzy said:

Trim too far back maybe

Yeah, forgot to tell you, but others already said. -1 nose down, or the whole way nose down is better to prevent a too soon lift off.

With regards to prop, even if you leave it auto, as far as you don't go crazy and keep it 1.15-1.2 Ata it'd be fine and controllable. I just told you ways to keep it more controlable while learning because once mastered it doesn't matter and you'll take off in almost any way.

The thing with too soon lift off and tail rising is you have to be watchful about the stick position, back stick but relieving the pressure while speeding up so it doesn't want to lift off too soon. The 109 (at least earlier versions) were known to be stalled by rookies at 140Km/H lift offs so the right wing stalled and they crashed belly up… not nice.

I don't recall what checklist says about MW50, you can set it on if you like in order not to forget it later. The thing is you don't want it to pop in suddenly while taking off. Just watch it, or leave it off so there's no possible mistake but you'll have to recall to turn it on later. If you make yourself sorta post-take off checklist it could include that. In any case, many online serves leave MW50 tank empty, so it's fine to learn to fly without it.

Rads are fine in auto if you aren't in a very hot environment. If you use it manual just remember to make them auto once airborne, but it helps with lift off and provide lift, for good while taking off, and for bad once airborne. If you prefer not to mess with it just leave it auto.

Perhaps it's too much to say, but some people like to take off with 10º flaps down, since flaps reduce AoA it's nice to have a lower nose attitude though it'll probably lift off also sooner. And it's another thing to remember to set up after take off. But again, you won't need it once mastered, so it's up to you.

 

Bad weather is fine if you want to practice crosswind take offs and landings, just make absolute sure to take off facing the wind or you'll be very sorry. But I think that's a later learning, it's better to master good enough take offs first than adding too much stuff to take care of too soon.

 

And all of it remember, once mastered you'll wonder why I found it so difficult at first being it so easy? You'll be able to take off in any way you want. Those are just tips to try to have it under control while learning, you might not need all of them, you might not like all of them if they don't help for you, etc, etc. Practice is key.

[Toastfrenzy]

Had a few more fly outs in the BF, tried a few different variations on the control settings, power, prop etc.

Here's what works for me. Most is all taken from above and maybe some advice from the many youtube vid's out there.

Trim to -1

Prop to 1230 manual

No flaps, clean AC

I set MW50 to on

Rads to auto

Power around 1.1 to 1.3 ata

Fly tail after 110-120km

Rotate faster than I would think, around 180km or above, way more fight control authority

Right stick and on plenty of right wheel brake to keep straight, with left to stop a pio

Once off the ground wheels up and a push forward to keep speed increasing

Prop governor to auto

 

All still require finesse but fairing better than the 3 AI who once attempted TO's before me onetime, all crashed....?

 

I didn't seem to get the power with 1130 Prop set, which lead to a slower more un controlled TO flight. Same with Auto set, power seemed a bit random. But with more practice neither should pose too much of a problem I shouldn't think.

Is 1230 the most pull with the Prop getting finer, less pull the at 1130 1030 etc?

 

Edited June 8, 2023 by Toastfrenzy

[Ala13_ManOWar]

Great .

 

Prop in 12.30 probably has a higher grasp than 11.30 or 12.00, so 11.30 gives you more time to react but take off run is longer so if it's uncontrolled it can be trickier either. Anyhow if you tried all the settings and found the one you like better that's perfect, testing always helps. Auto is mostly the same but it varies the pitch while throttling up until you get to the take off power you're asking from the engine, that's probably why you find it less stable but in time you'll find it's more or less the same and you'll get to control it either .

Edited June 9, 2023 by Ala13_ManOWar

[grafspee]

This my rust attempt.

 

[Toastfrenzy]

11 hours ago, grafspee said:

This my rust attempt.

That's good! Can see I'm not far off with my air speeds and controls at various points. One thing I do differently is turn finals a bit higher - gives me a bit of breathing room should anything happen. 

I have saved my tracks and plan to take the 2nd and last attempt (which I'm flying today - now can get back on) and make a short video too.

18 hours ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

Great .

 

Prop in 12.30 probably has a higher grasp than 11.30 or 12.00, so 11.30 gives you more time to react but take off run is longer so if it's uncontrolled it can be trickier either. Anyhow if you tried all the settings and found the one you like better that's perfect, testing always helps. Auto is mostly the same but it varies the pitch while throttling up until you get to the take power you're asking for the engine, that's probably why you find it less stable but in time you'll find it's more or less the same and you'll get to control it either .

Makes sense - did briefly try the 3 prop settings again yesterday, definitely preferred the 1230 manual setting, far shorter TO run, bit more full on but at the moment the less opportunity to PIO the better!

Thanks again.

Edited June 9, 2023 by Toastfrenzy

[grafspee]

35 minutes ago, Toastfrenzy said:

That's good! Can see I'm not far off with my air speeds and controls at various points. One thing I do differently is turn finals a bit higher - gives me a bit of breathing room should anything happen. 

I have saved my tracks and plan to take the 2nd and last attempt (which I'm flying today - now can get back on) and make a short video too.

Makes sense - did briefly try the 3 prop settings again yesterday, definitely preferred the 1230 manual setting, far shorter TO run, bit more full on but at the moment the less opportunity to PIO the better!

Thanks again.

 

Yeah it was just random landing and i was doing 2 point landing so i had higher speed.

I do agree that 12 o'clock setting gives a little bit high rpm after lift off especially when 1.4 ATA is used.

Probably 1.2 ATA for take off would be much suitable for 12 o'clock

Edited June 9, 2023 by grafspee

[Reflected]

This should also help:

https://youtu.be/TKeRdhBSMLE

[Toastfrenzy]

9 hours ago, Reflected said:

This should also help:

https://youtu.be/TKeRdhBSMLE

Hi, yes thanks, its been my go to for the last few days!

[Toastfrenzy]

Think I need a breather, almost got the hang of TO's, landings always found a fair bit easier so I thought I'd take the K4 online.

Glad I chose the PVE 4YA Normandy server, as the AI beasted me and those AI Spits are really sticky. Delt with a P47 easy enough though my aim in the K4 is suffering. The first Spit holed my block so had to dead stick to the first blue airfield I saw. Took off again and saw a Spit making a bee line straight for me on the map. I couldn't gain an altitude advantage, think spent a good while trying to counter him with my vertical moves. I know not to horizontal turn much in this. Though I need to practice lead with the 151's and 108, kept falling behind him when I manged to twice get on his 6. I ended up diving for the deck and think the AI lawn darted himself as at 550kph  50m alt  racing along suddenly the AI wasn't there, manoeuvre kill lol.

Need to get used to the view from the cockpit, also must remember to amend the curve for my head tracking, bit too sharp and fine tuning the headtracking axis to -10 works a treat, used on my other prop planes and its smoothes out the movement good. 

4k, is not good for spotting, but loathe to lower the resolution as its so nice. 

Edited June 10, 2023 by Toastfrenzy

[grafspee]

On 6/9/2023 at 9:59 PM, Toastfrenzy said:

Think I need a breather, almost got the hang of TO's, landings always found a fair bit easier so I thought I'd take the K4 online.

Glad I chose the PVE 4YA Normandy server, as the AI beasted me and those AI Spits are really sticky. Delt with a P47 easy enough though my aim in the K4 is suffering. The first Spit holed my block so had to dead stick to the first blue airfield I saw. Took off again and saw a Spit making a bee line straight for me on the map. I couldn't gain an altitude advantage, think spent a good while trying to counter him with my vertical moves. I know not to horizontal turn much in this. Though I need to practice lead with the 151's and 108, kept falling behind him when I manged to twice get on his 6. I ended up diving for the deck and think the AI lawn darted himself as at 550kph  50m alt  racing along suddenly the AI wasn't there, manoeuvre kill lol.

Need to get used to the view from the cockpit, also must remember to amend the curve for my head tracking, bit too sharp and fine tuning the headtracking axis to -10 works a treat, used on my other prop planes and its smoothes out the movement good. 

4k, is not good for spotting, but loathe to lower the resolution as its so nice. 

 

If you want to play in 4K and not having pixel size of hydrogen atom you need at least 42 inch monitor. I use 48 inch and spotting is very easy.

[Doughguy]

Yeah... i had my TV plugged into my pc today. spotting is way easier.

Also, due to the same "lower" resolution VR folks have the same advantage.

[Toastfrenzy]

16 minutes ago, grafspee said:

If you want to play in 4K and not having pixel size of hydrogen atom you need at least 42 inch monitor. I use 48 inch and spotting is very easy.

Ah, interesting - have 32" for my PC may try on the lounge 65" in that case to see how that plays out....

[Toastfrenzy]

And here's my 2nd take off attempt.....

 

 

[razo+r]

Don't pull the stick above 100km/h and don't pull when you see signs of stalling, build up speed instead, even if it means pushing the stick. Make sure to set the correct takeoff trim before going into the air.

Edited June 13, 2023 by razo+r

[Toastfrenzy]

And 17 attempts later...

 

8 minutes ago, razo+r said:

Don't pull the stick above 100km/h and don't pull when you see signs of stalling, build up speed instead, even if it means pushing the stick. Make sure to set the correct takeoff trim before going into the air.

 

Thanks for the useful advice, you beat me to my next post. Cracked it!

Edited June 13, 2023 by Toastfrenzy

[Ala13_ManOWar]

2 hours ago, Toastfrenzy said:

And 17 attempts later...

Congrats

 

Based on your last video, you can still improve it a bit. You remembered quite well to push stick back, unlike the first video, and centred it at the right time though a bit abruptly. It's not easy to learn, one has to practice it of the mission even, but try to release the stick little by little until you reach those 100Km/H. Releasing the stick at once might result in unwanted movements, even an accident.

But more importantly, how come you don't move your feet? like at all?? I see only some brakes usage at the very first moment of the run, but no rudder pedals at all until you're already airborne . Do you have take off assistance activated? If so, that might well be what caused you problems at first .