reported OA 1 location still below ground

[Moonshine]

this bug has still not been fixed, despite the changelog, see new track attached with latest OB.

edit: added second track, less clicky, showing same issue. very disappointing

Offset-Aimpoint-location_bug.trk Offset-Aimpoint-location_bug2.trk

Edited June 8, 2023 by Moonshine

[karpiyon]

Despite what is written in the latest open beta release notes:

• Fixed: Offset Aimpoint altitude is entered from DED with negative values

The value is still negative for both OA1 & OA2.

 

This is the same but reported by @Moonshine @twistking

 

 

Edited June 10, 2023 by karpiyon

[Nealius]

Oh no. Glad I found this thread before wasting my time on a 160nm round-trip popup flight this evening.

[Moonshine]

its funny, in two separate patches it was listed as "fixed" however it was never really fixed. would be time for a hotfix  

[karpiyon]

1 hour ago, Moonshine said:

its funny, in two separate patches it was listed as "fixed" however it was never really fixed. would be time for a hotfix  

Did you try it after installing the new update as well?
I wand to make sure it is really NOT fixed.

[Moonshine]

Yes, my tracks here are with the absolute latest Open Beta version.

 

[karpiyon]

Then it's about time someone fixes this bug. 
It was working as expected when it was first introduced.

[twistking]

21 minutes ago, karpiyon said:

It was working as expected when it was first introduced.

Really? I'm 99% sure that it did not work when it was first introduced. Now i'm considering, that it's actually me, who does not understand how to use OA.

From my understanding, it's used when GPS is unavaialble or compromised and the target itself is obscured through atmospheric conditions and/or not visible on ground radar. Targeting can then be done with an offset target point, that is more visible on the sensor of choice. Whenever i tried it, my bombs would drop on the OA instead of the TGT, while - from my understanding - bombs should hit TGT, while sensors are looking at OA.

I cannot remember it ever working as described above... did i get this wrong, or did i just miss the timeframe where the function was not broken?

[Moonshine]

it did work at some point prior to last christmas, since then its broken.

no, wags video showing the OA and how he designates it with the TGP is not correct. has nothing to do with GPS or no GPS, the OA will drift alongside the steerpoint they are related to in case of INS drift and can only be corrected doing a NAV FIX.

however yes, if you have a target steerpoint and someone tells you (or you know, have a map and a ruler, do it yourself) that the exact location of whatever you try to hit is at a specific bearing at a specific range and altitude from your steerpoint, you can then plug this in via the DEST page so you dont have to get completely new coordinates (for example, JTAC giving you coordinates for one target, then only bearing and range from that point to the next target)

another use case is for pre-planned Pop-Up attacks where your OA indicators act as a visual aid to fly the pop up profile, where as you could use OA1 as an indicator for the Apex of your profile and OA2 as your aim-off distance (where you place your FPM). this allows to fly the exact dive angle for optimal weapon delivery.

Edited June 10, 2023 by Moonshine

[twistking]

1 hour ago, Moonshine said:

it did work at some point prior to last christmas, since then its broken.

no, wags video showing the OA and how he designates it with the TGP is not correct. has nothing to do with GPS or no GPS, the OA will drift alongside the steerpoint they are related to in case of INS drift and can only be corrected doing a NAV FIX.

however yes, if you have a target steerpoint and someone tells you (or you know, have a map and a ruler, do it yourself) that the exact location of whatever you try to hit is at a specific bearing at a specific range and altitude from your steerpoint, you can then plug this in via the DEST page so you dont have to get completely new coordinates (for example, JTAC giving you coordinates for one target, then only bearing and range from that point to the next target)

another use case is for pre-planned Pop-Up attacks where your OA indicators act as a visual aid to fly the pop up profile, where as you could use OA1 as an indicator for the Apex of your profile and OA2 as your aim-off distance (where you place your FPM). this allows to fly the exact dive angle for optimal weapon delivery.

 

OK. i think i missunderstood how it works then. But you also missunderstood me, i think. My assumption was that should work like in the following scenario:

No GPS. Known target lcoation (Waypoint) preplanned. Two known easily identifiable objects near target waypoint with known offset preplanned (OA1 and OA2).
Inflight nearing target location. INS drift has "moved" the waypoint and the OAs from their actual position.
Waypoint (TGT) is obscured by atmospheric conditions (weather). At least one of the OAs is clearly visible (let's say OA1 in this example).
Select OA1 in TGP and slave LOS to the corrected position of OA1, thereby also slaving TGT (the waypoint proper) and OA2 to their actual positions (since their relation is fixed).
Keep the TGP in OA1 mode and keep TGP LOS on OA1 prebriefed object/location.
Drob Bomb and hit the target on the waypoint (TGT) while TGP LOS is on OA1.

That's my understanding of how OAs should work. It would be a FIX and target solution at the exact same time and therefore should give the highest precision for preplanned attack with compromised GPS during low visibility conditions. Am i wrong?
Your first example seems somewhat legit, but i don't understand your second example: For pop-up attacks there exist already the two dedicated functions VRP and VIP...

[Moonshine]

never tried a NAV Fix (ICP button 8 ) with a offset aimpoint, could try to select the relevant steerpoint, try a fix and instead of looking at the steerpoint diamond, youd look at the offset aimpoint triangle. then again, for that triangle to exist in your HUD, you need to be in AG CCRP, LADD or DTOS, i doubt you can do a NAV FIX in AG master mode. would have to test but i dont think thats possible. since a NAV fix corrects every steerpoint, not just the selected one, you can just use one that is not obscured by clouds or whatever. some brain needs to go into mission planning to ideally place all steerpoints on some sort of landmark, so you can choose any of em to perform a fix. alternatively perform the fix using the AG radar.

edit: based off of this post in the viper minu update thread you have to be in NAV master mode for a FIX.
https://forum.dcs.world/topic/209147-viper-mini-updates/?do=findComment&comment=4992813

Offset aimpoints can be used in combination with VIP or VRP, indicating Pull Down Point (OA 1) and Aim off Distance (OA 2). this provides visual aid with additional symbology to fly a pop up. 

As for VIP and VRP, with both you can use OAs as well, only difference is that in VRP, all points are in relation to the TGT steerpoint, in VIP all locations (even the target) are based off a known position (steerpoint not on the target but rather a significant landmark or whatever makes sense -> VIP) and from there the bearing and range to the target is related.

Edited June 10, 2023 by Moonshine

[twistking]

3 hours ago, Moonshine said:

[...]

I don't ment a literal FIX as in the F-16C FIX function, but a targeting solution, that would make a FIX redundant. Because you would manually aim the TGP at the OA, your target solution would be precise for the target (Waypoint/TGT), because relative offset is known: "Aim" TGP at the OA, hit the TGT! That's how i understood it. Does that make sense? Maybe that's wrong... it was just my understanding till now.

Thanks for the graphics. I'm not really super familair with VRP and VIP yet, so i'll probably have some more reading to do. VRP/VIP plus OA seems rather complex...

Edited June 10, 2023 by twistking

[Nealius]

11 hours ago, twistking said:

From my understanding, it's used when GPS is unavaialble or compromised and the target itself is obscured through atmospheric conditions and/or not visible on ground radar. Targeting can then be done with an offset target point, that is more visible on the sensor of choice. Whenever i tried it, my bombs would drop on the OA instead of the TGT, while - from my understanding - bombs should hit TGT, while sensors are looking at OA.

My understanding is that it is simply a visual aid to hit required parameters for pop-ups and HADB iron bomb deliveries with CCIP, pre-GPS era. 

[karpiyon]

This is what I am using it for.
If you have Voice Attack you can download my plugin for free. It does 'everything...' one of them is the popup planner.
This footage is when the time teh OA1/2 did work.

@Moonshine The above is based on Weapon Delivery Planner, made for BMS. Same as the one you linked for.

My plugin enters all the relevant data using a vocal command.

[Moonshine]

I like the idea, however not that useful for people not using Voice Attack (like me). 
 

lets stay on topic and not drift off further into Fix etc. this one is about the OA position being below ground despite setting positive altitude numbers in DED. 

Edited June 11, 2023 by Moonshine

[karpiyon]

47 minutes ago, Moonshine said:

I like the idea, however not that useful for people not using vaicom (like me). 
 

lets stay on topic and not drift off further into Fix etc. this one is about the OA position being below ground despite setting positive altitude numbers in DED. 

I guess you meant Voice Attack, not VAICOM.
And yes, we have drifted a bit. This bug was reported over a year a go and allegedly fixed twice therefore the drift from teh subject.

[Moonshine]

yes, corrected

[karpiyon]

Any news on this?

Any updates, will it ever be fixed?

[BIGNEWY]

Another report has been made, you need to continue to be patient, we know it can be frustrating but the complexity of these modules and the time and resources needed for each issue can complicate matters. 

thank you.