improved height maps where?

[Japo32]

Hello!

First, I have to say Thanks a lot to the new developer on DCS!! Without you we don't have enjoyment. I am a developer for another simulator, making planes and have been working as a 3D artist for several years already for the game industry. So Thanks a lot and I understand how hard it is to make something.

Second. Thanks for the great price. I think it is the best quality map for the price for sure. Apart from the Normandy2 that only cost me 10$ (but of course previously I had to pay 2 maps to have that one).

So... First I have to say that I was not very impressed with the announcement, some years ago, of the map. But following the news I was convinced, and after the youtube pre release reviews, I wanted to buy it. BUT one thing I was expecting as HELO VIRTUAL PILOT in VR is the new tessellation of the terrain polygons. I saw this picture in the development process and I was convinced that I would play with my Apache hiding in any little hole in the map. 

 

 

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BUT the day of having the map I was flying and then I saw this:

 

And that is the old spike polygons that we see in all the DCS maps. So maybe I was not lucky to find the new tessellation, or maybe it is still not present and it will be in future updates? (I ask this without any sarcasm, for sure!!!) Please, tell me that it will be included in the future.

The product says this:

 

• Implementation of new procedural generation technology of land textures and normal map textures for mountains. This provides a new level of detail to DCS maps.
• Use of new technologies to create improved height maps that result in an accurate surface mesh.

 

and while I clearly see as a 3D artist the normal maps in all the high altitude flights, near them I just see the old polygons tessellation. And believe me I have all graphics full. 

In a map, where there is a lot of desert, any dune that can be represented in 3D is a must for hiding behind to attack enemy lines. 

I hope this can be improved in future. And of course. THANKS again for giving us the map with more conflicts per KM2 of the full world four our joy.

 

Edited June 10, 2023 by Japo32

[Ian Boys UK]

Agreed: the new height map was one of the main attractions for me as a helo pilot but I don't see it anywhere. Seems to be a regular 50m mesh or more? Disappointing as we were specifically told this would be there.

@OnReTech any thoughts please? All these shots were taken on the actual Sinai peninsula so I'd assume high detail there in the centre of the map.

[Japo32]

hello @OnReTech?

[Despayre]

4 hours ago, Japo32 said:

hello @OnReTech?

It was the weekend.

Take a breath. Relax.

[OnReTech]

Sorry for delay answer @Japo32

Yes, as you noticed on the map there is a normal map - which is great for high altitude. The main problem was and remains to generate a more accurate mesh. But we can generate it with the improved heightmap that we managed to get.

Now a mesh has been generated from the improved heightmap, but with a rather large edge and it is equally dense throughout the map, but already with it we got unevenness on the dunes, although with the standard heightmap we had just a plane.

As I wrote earlier, this technology is used to work out some places at the moment and these places will be supplemented. These are static mesh that replace the main mesh, as seen in the screenshots you showed.

Why can't we do this for the whole terrain? Because static meshes don't have a lod system like a standard terrain mesh does. That is, when I make a mountain section of an improved network and get 1M triangles - this 1M will be visible even in Cairo - although it is in Jordan.

I'll show you a screenshot in which the improved mesh is built, it's a square of about 30 by 30 km and there are more triangles in it than in the entire territory of the entire map. And without lods, we get 1fps, because 100M triangles always fall into the frame.

But there is a way out, it is necessary to modify the TDK a little so that these static pieces fall into the general mesh of the terrain.

But the technology works and there are places in the shinai where this improved mesh is available. I will also add it to the place where Petra is located in Jordan and a couple more places in the future.

I hope I explained it clearly, if you have any questions feel free to ask.
Screenshots attached.

Edited June 12, 2023 by OnReTech

[Japo32]

So if I understand correctly, the mesh always has that ammount of polygons independently where the plane is? don't make the tessellation while you are aproaching the place? oh.. that is bad. So I suppose it is something DCS would need to change to make it possible in the future.

Or did you say that the mesh, is an object that you put over the default mesh? Don't know what is the "static mesh" In any case, it seems that the map won't be able to use that technology all around, and is a shame. Unless ED changes the code for it.

Thanks anyway.

[OnReTech]

ED profi guys, I think that we have somehow implemented the technology and this will push them to do it in the future. I hope that they are already working in this direction.

At least I will discuss it with them in the future.

10 minutes ago, Japo32 said:

So if I understand correctly, the mesh always has that ammount of polygons independently where the plane is? don't make the tessellation while you are aproaching the place? oh.. that is bad. So I suppose it is something DCS would need to change to make it possible in the future.

Or did you say that the mesh, is an object that you put over the default mesh? Don't know what is the "static mesh" In any case, it seems that the map won't be able to use that technology all around, and is a shame. Unless ED changes the code for it.

Thanks anyway.

A regular mesh has a LODS system, while a static mesh has no LODS.

[Thx1137]

5 hours ago, OnReTech said:

But there is a way out, it is necessary to modify the TDK a little so that these static pieces fall into the general mesh of the terrain.

Wow, that sounds tough to do well in such a big map where someone can create missions anywhere they want!

Sorry to suggest yet another task! It might be worth having a map image where mission makers can see where the enhanced mesh areas are so they know where to plan their helicopter missions? 

[Japo32]

Ok.. so it is an object that is placed in same position as the terrain. I saw a Tenerife (canary island) map in DCS test with this method already.

edit: here the terrain I mention: (5) desdemicabina simulation en Twitter: "Lo dificil se consigue y lo imposible se intenta. El Ala 46 ya tiene su lugar en DCS... Seguiremos informando, Halcón 2-1 https://t.co/UrnPPNTWMh" / Twitter

Edited June 13, 2023 by Japo32

[ThorBrasil]

14 hours ago, OnReTech said:

Sorry for delay answer @Japo32

Yes, as you noticed on the map there is a normal map - which is great for high altitude. The main problem was and remains to generate a more accurate mesh. But we can generate it with the improved heightmap that we managed to get.

Now a mesh has been generated from the improved heightmap, but with a rather large edge and it is equally dense throughout the map, but already with it we got unevenness on the dunes, although with the standard heightmap we had just a plane.

As I wrote earlier, this technology is used to work out some places at the moment and these places will be supplemented. These are static mesh that replace the main mesh, as seen in the screenshots you showed.

Why can't we do this for the whole terrain? Because static meshes don't have a lod system like a standard terrain mesh does. That is, when I make a mountain section of an improved network and get 1M triangles - this 1M will be visible even in Cairo - although it is in Jordan.

I'll show you a screenshot in which the improved mesh is built, it's a square of about 30 by 30 km and there are more triangles in it than in the entire territory of the entire map. And without lods, we get 1fps, because 100M triangles always fall into the frame.

But there is a way out, it is necessary to modify the TDK a little so that these static pieces fall into the general mesh of the terrain.

But the technology works and there are places in the shinai where this improved mesh is available. I will also add it to the place where Petra is located in Jordan and a couple more places in the future.

I hope I explained it clearly, if you have any questions feel free to ask.
Screenshots attached.

 

I hope the mountains can get better treatment in the future on low-altitude flights. When I thought about buying the map it was precisely because of this technology that would stand out in relation to other maps. The way it was announced suggests that the entire extent of the map will have the technology, but that does not happen. I feel cheated. I hope we can see these improvements in the future and that Israel gets the love it deserves. There are currently a lot of references missing from the scene. Historical, tourist attractions, etc. If the map of Syria made the scenery rich in landmarks, Sinai is also capable. That's what Sinai lacks to give a richer experience.

[Ian Boys UK]

Same, disappointed. I get why it's hard but it seems we were advertised something that wasn't delivered. 

[OnReTech]

On 6/13/2023 at 2:36 PM, ThorBrasil said:

I hope the mountains can get better treatment in the future on low-altitude flights. When I thought about buying the map it was precisely because of this technology that would stand out in relation to other maps. The way it was announced suggests that the entire extent of the map will have the technology, but that does not happen. I feel cheated. I hope we can see these improvements in the future and that Israel gets the love it deserves. There are currently a lot of references missing from the scene. Historical, tourist attractions, etc. If the map of Syria made the scenery rich in landmarks, Sinai is also capable. That's what Sinai lacks to give a richer experience.

I agree, but this is the first release of the map, EA. We will work on improving naturally, as well as other modules, it will be updated and improved. And these are good reviews for us in the future, that we should not forget about helicopter pilots.

Edited June 14, 2023 by OnReTech

[SMH]

On 6/12/2023 at 5:17 PM, OnReTech said:

Why can't we do this for the whole terrain? Because static meshes don't have a lod system like a standard terrain mesh does. That is, when I make a mountain section of an improved network and get 1M triangles - this 1M will be visible even in Cairo - although it is in Jordan.

 

Why wouldn't you give this static mesh a series of LODs just like any other static object gets?

This was a major selling point for this map, promoted by ED in the news letters and product page. I'm disappointed. 

[Thx1137]

13 hours ago, SMH said:

Why wouldn't you give this static mesh a series of LODs just like any other static object gets?

This was a major selling point for this map, promoted by ED in the news letters and product page. I'm disappointed. 

I think it is pretty clear from the earlier comments that a "static" mesh doesn't support LODs. You need a dynamic mesh for that and DCS, it seems, doesn't support the higher resolution. In which case it would be EDs task to improve. 

[Germane]

Am 13.6.2023 um 02:24 schrieb OnReTech:

ED profi guys, I think that we have somehow implemented the technology and this will push them to do it in the future. I hope that they are already working in this direction.

At least I will discuss it with them in the future.

 

Is there any news about this? In my opinion, it is one of the most urgent and necessary improvements to the toolkit.

When I look at pictures of the new maps, they still use the very inaccurate mesh

[Bagpipe]

On 1/9/2024 at 4:18 PM, Germane said:

Is there any news about this? In my opinion, it is one of the most urgent and necessary improvements to the toolkit.

When I look at pictures of the new maps, they still use the very inaccurate mesh

If I were you I would email ED support directly and ask the question. It will be up to them to improve the TDK after all.
If you create a support ticket it needs to be looked at and answered in some form.