Many servers, few players?

[Cab]

18 minutes ago, Maverick87Shaka said:

It doesn't mean that doesn't face issue due to this decision, as well is not immune by IC tampering attempt.

Sure. But I was disagreeing with your comment about it being the worst choice. Obviously the players frequenting that server don’t think so. 

[Maverick87Shaka]

On 8/13/2023 at 5:32 PM, Cab said:

Sure. But I was disagreeing with your comment about it being the worst choice. Obviously the players frequenting that server don’t think so. 

Players most of the time are not really aware of what happens behind the scene, and they also are not supposed to be.
From my prospective it's responsibility of the server owner, especially in a PvP environment, try to guarantee a fair play on their own server.

Take the decision to use a MOD, using the workaround to editing .miz file to don't make it "required", simply kick in too many risk, at least for me, as I said.

BTW. A-4 is an amazing MOD and it's clear that people love it, I'm not making any critics to the A-4 mod itself that is brilliant, but the way that is "hosted" sometimes since may have some drawbacks.
 

Edited August 16, 2023 by Maverick87Shaka

[MAXsenna]

Because you’d probably have to own this mod to join, I imagine that’s how it works. Many people do not want to mess around with mods. 

Well, technically it's free, so have to have it, not own it.
Now, if the server operator/mission designer wants to, they can exclude that it's mandatory to have it installed to join the server. But it will look as an Su-27, if you don't.
To be honest, this is a free module everyone should have installed anyway, as they're missing out if you're into cold war anyway.
Mess around, reading this forum there are more difficult stuff with the core compared to download a single file and unzip it into Saved Games in any case.


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It's free and a better aircraft than some of the payware!

Amen!

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Yeah but mods are a pain to deal with and can cause problems.

It's not a mod.

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That basically it's the worst choice that a server admin can make in my honest opinion.
It's a workaround for a current DCS mod limitation, but it will ruin everyone experience, and also open the door for potential IC tamping attempt.

Not everyone. Only those that didn't put in the effort to install it. Which can be easier than installing DCS itself. Reading some posts today.

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[SharpeXB]

41 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

if the server operator/mission designer wants to, they can exclude that it's mandatory to have it installed to join the server. But it will look as an Su-27, if you don't.

That’s a rather silly solution. These aircraft don’t have the same flight model or weapons. How does that make sense?

43 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

To be honest, this is a free module everyone should have installed anyway

No because it’s an unofficial mod and any of these can cause stability problems and interfere with troubleshooting etc. Not worth dealing with. It’s easy to understand why many severs don’t have these. 

19 hours ago, 4eyes said:

 

It's free and a better aircraft than some of the payware!

It’s ridiculous that people put so much effort into creating this as an unofficial mod when they probably could have made it official DLC. Likely they just weren’t savvy enough to figure that out. 

[Baldrick33]

19 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

No because it’s an unofficial mod and any of these can cause stability problems and interfere with troubleshooting etc. Not worth dealing with. It’s easy to understand why many severs don’t have these. 

The first thing we get asked when troubleshooting issues is to remove any unofficial mods. I prefer to keep DCS as vanilla as possible. Also mods easily get broken with updates as they don’t get tested by ED prior to release for obvious reasons.

[MAXsenna]

The first thing we get asked when troubleshooting issues is to remove any unofficial mods. I prefer to keep DCS as vanilla as possible. Also mods easily get broken with updates as they don’t get tested by ED prior to release for obvious reasons.

That's your prerogative. The assumption here is that the Enigma server is very popular and have incorporated this free community module. It's not a modification of any kind.
Use mod manager, and it can be applied/removed in seconds.
This particular one has never given me any grief.

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It’s ridiculous that people put so much effort into creating this as an unofficial mod when they probably could have made it official DLC. Likely they just weren’t savvy enough to figure that out. 

Too many persons involved, who will get paid what for what?
And the licence was too expensive IIRC.
There's another super excellent free community module. They tried to make ED incorporate it in the core. But for some reason, it couldn't be done.

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[SharpeXB]

8 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Too many persons involved, who will get paid what for what?
And the licence was too expensive IIRC.

And yet every other Third Party Dev can figure this out. It looks like a case of misplaced enthusiasm. 

[MAXsenna]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

That’s a rather silly solution. These aircraft don’t have the same flight model or weapons. How does that make sense?

Looks can deceive. It's still and A-4E-C. In disguise, so to speak. 

[SharpeXB]

1 minute ago, MAXsenna said:

Looks can deceive. It's still and A-4E-C. In disguise, so to speak. 

It’s a very poor solution IMO. 

[MAXsenna]

Just now, SharpeXB said:

And yet every other Third Party Dev can figure this out. It looks like a case of misplaced enthusiasm. 

Here you go again. I don't understand why you always want to pick a fight? 

I'm not involved with the team, if you really wonder why it didn't happen you can read for yourself. It's not that hard to find the info. 

Just now, SharpeXB said:

It’s a very poor solution IMO. 

That's on ED, might wanna ask them. 

[SharpeXB]

6 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Here you go again. I don't understand why you always want to pick a fight? 

It’s a discussion, not a fight. So…

7 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

That's on ED, might wanna ask them. 

That solution seems to be up to the sever owner. I don’t see too many who go that route either. EDs limitations on official content are pretty well understood and reasonable. Mandatory in fact. 
I don’t see how a single community mod aircraft has much to do with the topic either. 

[MAXsenna]

5 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

It’s a discussion, not a fight. So…

Well, one starts to wonder. Whenever one provides you info, and your response is almost "Now, that's stupid!" 

 

29 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

That solution seems to be up to the sever owner.

Delete the core mods folder and see for yourself. 

 

30 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I don’t see how a single community mod aircraft has much to do with the topic either. 

Again. It's not a modification.

OP complained about empty servers, and another user gave some insights about it. And you come here, again to complain to enlighten us with your thoughts about it.  

[Cab]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

And yet every other Third Party Dev can figure this out. It looks like a case of misplaced enthusiasm. 

They aren’t a Third Party Dev. They are hobbyists who,I believe, have no desire to go “official”.

And most people are grateful for their outstanding effort, as is. 

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

It’s a very poor solution IMO. 

Yes. But if it’s that or nothing, I’ll take it. 

[SharpeXB]

2 minutes ago, Cab said:

They aren’t a Third Party Dev. They are hobbyists who,I believe, have no desire to go “official”.

And most people are grateful for their outstanding effort, as is. 

If they had gone about doing this work in the right way they very well could have been. It’s astonishing to me that people can put so much work into something they aren’t being paid for. Yeah there are hobbies but this type of thing seems to stretch the definition. ED seems a bit puzzled by this too judging from their statements. 

27 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Again. It's not a modification.

Yes it’s an unofficial mod. The very definition of such. 

[Cab]

1 minute ago, SharpeXB said:

If they had gone about doing this work in the right way they very well could have been.

Judging from the posts in this thread and others, I don’t think any of us REALLY understand what it takes to reach the level of an official third-party module. They did what they wanted, at the level they wanted, and are clearly satisfied with the result. That approach may not be for you or me, but it was for them. 
 

I’d recommend trying to not be so judgmental.

[SharpeXB]

8 hours ago, 4eyes said:

All I am saying is that if a server does not include a A4-e, then that server will have fewer players. That's their choice. But, they should not complain for lack of players.

Ok so back on topic here. A quick search of the 40 most populated servers shows 2 running the A-4 mod. The lack of allowing this mod doesn’t appear to have anything to do with the numbers online. 

[MAXsenna]

9 minutes ago, Cab said:

Judging from the posts in this thread and others, I don’t think any of us REALLY understand what it takes to reach the level of an official third-party module. They did what they wanted, at the level they wanted, and are clearly satisfied with the result. That approach may not be for you or me, but it was for them. 

You're against windmills here.

17 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Yes it’s an unofficial mod. The very definition of such. 

So what base module did the team modify? 

19 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Yeah there are hobbies but this type of thing seems to stretch the definition. ED seems a bit puzzled by this too judging from their statements. 

Well, some people are actually in the possession of something called honour. 

[rob10]

20 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

If they had gone about doing this work in the right way they very well could have been. It’s astonishing to me that people can put so much work into something they aren’t being paid for. Yeah there are hobbies but this type of thing seems to stretch the definition.

The world is a much better place for people willing to share work they've done strictly for the satisfaction of knowing others are getting enjoyment out of it, rather than demanding to be paid for everything they do.  Clearly you're not one of those people.

And that's aside from the massive increase in responsibilities and obligations that would come with going official 3rd party.

[Cab]

13 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

You're against windmills here.

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, Cab said:

I don’t think any of us REALLY understand what it takes to reach the level of an official third-party module.

Theres a clear path for anyone who wants an agreement with ED to do this. It’s not a mystery. 

1 hour ago, rob10 said:

The world is a much better place for people willing to share work they've done strictly for the satisfaction of knowing others are getting enjoyment out of it, rather than demanding to be paid for everything they do.  Clearly you're not one of those people.

And that's aside from the massive increase in responsibilities and obligations that would come with going official 3rd party.

Sure but the problem is that unofficial mods just aren’t an ideal solution for content like this. 

Edited August 13, 2023 by SharpeXB

[Pikey]

Many servers, few players?

Reasons:
1. Folks leave their servers on 24/7, but they go to work, go out, do stuff that isn't just flying. This is hosting. Simple example, a squadron has a permanent server up for use by its 30 European players. They might play at weird times or not, but the server is expected to be on and available, and maybe one person visited quickly to set a binding that week.
2. Another reason is that people do not visit random servers. Source: I leave my server up when testing, sometimes just AI fighting it out for 3 days, to see what breaks. I don't lock it because people don't play spin the bottle in DCS. Why, because of more reasons;
- If you invest in joining, starting up, taking off, only to be shot down by something not in the briefing or vulching or the server just switches off, you learn not to join random servers until you know they have some validity.
- Server descriptions and the MP list doesn't do a good job of advertising a server with words. You rely on advertising and word of mouth to visit.
- Squadrons leave training servers or test servers or specific use servers up all the time, they dont fly all the time.
3. Given the server list is the entire planet for OB or Release, you have 24hrs where a third of people are sleeping, a third are working. At best you have three times the servers that are needed.
4. People fly for short periods and dip in and out. There can be over 3000 unique players across a 24hr period in just one server suppliers visits. But you never see 3000 in just one server. So consider you don't see all the players from all time. Source is 4YA by the way and that data is known.
5. There's so many configurations of DCS its never the same game. You can include mods in that, but that's a tiny part of the issue. There are maps, planes, eras, flavours, mission types and you end up with people picking one dish in the 'all-you-can-eat' buffet.

Folks have some idea that communities fragment over mods or maps and I hear this said many times over the years. People hate being confined to one squadron or plane or being told when to fly. Gone are those days. Kids are joining dozens of Discords and being idle, looking for their best option. The reason for fragmentation is the individual will and timing of people and which server they fancied and when, and which group they fly with this week 15 minute show before chasing a butterfly to something else.

 

[Baldrick33]

11 hours ago, Pikey said:

Folks have some idea that communities fragment over mods or maps and I hear this said many times over the years. People hate being confined to one squadron or plane or being told when to fly. Gone are those days. Kids are joining dozens of Discords and being idle, looking for their best option. The reason for fragmentation is the individual will and timing of people and which server they fancied and when, and which group they fly with this week 15 minute show before chasing a butterfly to something else.
 

It depends what people want from multiplayer and expectations of the developers to provide a multiplayer service or give the players the autonomy to do what they want and figure it out for themselves. ED fit into the latter category and IMHO it works fine for the squadrons to organise themselves. What it doesn’t provide is a true drop in service some seem to think it should be. For that you need very restricted content to gain critical mass of players. 

iRacing is a classic case study in how to provide a service where the numbers of players takes precedence over the content. People don’t join thinking they will drive MX5s or Skip Barbers but end up racing the introductory compulsory content forever because that is where they find the people they can race against. Over time iRacing has added content as the player base has grown, but only when there were sufficient numbers not to kill the core series, fragmentation is a real thing and has to be managed to provide a service. Some series are very niche and are more like the self organised servers here but the core series are very well populated round the clock. To get there iRacing exclusively managed servers and only allowed public hosting after getting the numbers. 

I don’t see DCS ever being like iRacing but the fragmentation of the community is inevitable with such a variety of content and free for all provision of servers.

[4eyes]

The loneliest place on earth, is a Channel Map server...........

[Soulres]

Simple answer, is because every group,every discord,every forum,every reddit handle,every boomer on TeamSpeak. HAS TO HAVE ITS OWN SERVER.

The point? "We'll make our own server, but with blackjack and hookers." But fails ultimately.

Nothing more Nothing less. 

Mayby if ED did something about servers or offcial servers that way Enigmas,Growling Sidewinder,4YA,TTI arnt always the ones with people in them, but ED isnt known for doing things for the community so, dont bet on it.