Mach 5 AIM-54C

[Delta59R]

Questions, can the AIM-54C do Mach 5 in sim? If so, in what situation? If no, can the RL do it? Thanks

[LanceCriminal86]

No, and no.

In essence the Mach 5 claim was not accurate to any actual demonstrated and documented performance, in reality you're looking at more like low Mach 4s when firing from high altitude/speed and at ranges where the missile can loft properly. NASA never actually tested/fired the Phoenix in the hypersonic proof of concept presentation. 

DCS missile behavior is still very problematic and lofting can't be adjusted to more specifically match what the Phoenix attempts to do. But in at least some of the few documented shots with enough data available, the DCS Phoenix's ballistic very closely matched those shots. The issues with notching and inefficient lofting profiles are squarely on the ED missile model and HB has no way to further adjust specifics of lofting angles nor seeker performance.

[Delta59R]

Daum.. was sold a m2.38 jet and m5.0 missiles and got a m2.1 jet and m3.9 missiles (frowny face) 

Well, I'd rather it be actuate. Thanks for the info. 

[falcon_120]

Daum.. was sold a m2.38 jet and m5.0 missiles and got a m2.1 jet and m3.9 missiles (frowny face) 
Well, I'd rather it be actuate. Thanks for the info. 

Do you need more than M2.1 for anything?

Enviado desde mi ELE-L29 mediante Tapatalk

[Despayre]

3 hours ago, Delta59R said:

Daum.. was sold a m2.38 jet and m5.0 missiles and got a m2.1 jet and m3.9 missiles (frowny face) 

Well, I'd rather it be actuate. Thanks for the info. 

If you can't get the 14 to do m2.38, that's on you. Try pointing the nose down.

[Delta59R]

54 minutes ago, falcon_120 said:

Do you need more than M2.1 for anything?
 

World is full of mysteries, when I've got my VR headset on and my GF catches a glimpse of me doing over M2.1 it turns her on..

 

yes I need it

19 minutes ago, Despayre said:

If you can't get the 14 to do m2.38, that's on you. Try pointing the nose down.

U just saved my relationship, I owe u man

[Sonoda Umi]

DCS missile behavior is still very problematic 

Due to this reason, I nearly take away from DCS currently until the ED fix the missile performance to an acceptable state.

[Karon]

On 7/3/2023 at 4:12 PM, LanceCriminal86 said:

No, and no.

M8 PLS
null

Spawned at 60k M3 or whatever, and fired the lightest and most explosive AIM-54 (hence the A Mk60) with a slight negative pitch with ACM on to disable loft (which reduces the top speed).

On a serious note, a 40k M1.5 54A Mk60 versus co-alt with no loft peaks at M4.1. The Phoenix is not a slow missile per se, but the loft trajectory reduces the top speed. However, it does not really matter, as the Phoenix behaves in its own peculiar way.

Charts and info here:

 

[Guest]

I don't fly this module anymore, it has no advantages over the other "modern" jets with aim 120's and i find that the fm is very strange. The phoenix do suck now.

[near_blind]

7 hours ago, Razor68 said:

it has no advantages over the other "modern" jets with aim 120's

I'll have to go back and check the marketing for where it promised the jet would have advantages over other Gen 4 jets with AIM-120s. Ideally one would fly it because they are interested in what an F-14 is like. If that's not the case and you want to chase the meta, may I be so bold as to suggest the lawn dart?

[Lurker]

8 hours ago, Razor68 said:

 it has no advantages over the other "modern" jets 

This is absolutely not true, you just have to know what you are doing and choose your engagements. 

 

[draconus]

9 hours ago, Razor68 said:

i find that the fm is very strange

Anything specific? Do you have any info/data that it should fly differently?

[Velik]

В 03.07.2023 в 18:50, Delta59R сказал:

Daum.. was sold a m2.38 jet and m5.0 missiles and got a m2.1 jet and m3.9 missiles (frowny face) 

Well, I'd rather it be actuate. Thanks for the info. 

Marketing period is over. Coach turned into pumpkin. Actually that's OK for 70th plane.

The same will happen with 16/18 when they are no longer be flagship modules

[fat creason]

7 hours ago, draconus said:

Anything specific? Do you have any info/data that it should fly differently?

I'm willing to bet "very strange" = no handholding from a FBW system

[Karon]

On 8/10/2023 at 6:43 AM, near_blind said:

I'll have to go back and check the marketing for where it promised the jet would have advantages over other Gen 4 jets with AIM-120s. Ideally one would fly it because they are interested in what an F-14 is like. If that's not the case and you want to chase the meta, may I be so bold as to suggest the lawn dart?

I bet Japanese Zero pilots felt betrayed as well when they faced the Tomcats from the Nimitz during WW2. They even made a documentary about it

[Despayre]

1 hour ago, Karon said:

I bet Japanese Zero pilots felt betrayed as well when they faced the Tomcats from the Nimitz during WW2. They even made a documentary about it

Where's the .miz file for that?

[MAXsenna]

On 8/11/2023 at 4:36 PM, Despayre said:

Where's the .miz file for that?

We'll have it when the Zeros drop. 

[draconus]

On 8/11/2023 at 4:36 PM, Despayre said:

Where's the .miz file for that?

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3313266/

[Despayre]

7 hours ago, draconus said:

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3313266/

Well now I know what I'm doing this afternoon...

Tnx!

[WarthogOsl]

7 hours ago, Despayre said:

Well now I know what I'm doing this afternoon...

Tnx!

Played this a couple times while back, and the last time there was an issue where the "Zeros" were practically invincible.  It took like 3 missile hits to take them out.

I think I'll wait until we have the KA-6 tanker and hopefully some real AI Zeros before playing this again (I assume Reflected will update it as soon as those are available). 

[Skyron]

So is the AIM54C missile OK or not?

Will it Change?

All Data i see from Google says it goes Mach 5 , but it cannot get more than ~ Mach 3.5+

[Karon]

5 minutes ago, Skyron said:

So is the AIM54C missile OK or not?

Will it Change?

All Data i see from Google says it goes Mach 5 , but it cannot get more than ~ Mach 3.5+

Unfortunately, reading it on the internet is not enough. I can write on my website that the Phoenix goes at M6, and someone may even believe it. However, without proper and reliable models  and numbers (or the closest approximations we can get), it won't be a souce usable by the devs. An I totally agree with them on this.

As a sidenote, the Phoenix is not slow or "bad". It requires the user to understand it and do some homework, though.

[Skyron]

Hey Karon, Thanks for the reply.

AIM54 is slow and bad, and F14 has no place in DCS PvP - (Either Cold War because is too good - or in modern is too bad).

The only place that F14 is OK is in PVE when AI goes almost strait to the missile.

 

i'm not an expert so I cant say if AIM54 Data is accurate or not , thats why iam asking here :)))

i understand that its speed depends on many things like Altitude - aricraft speed e.t.c - all im asking is if AIM 54 is accurate and if will it change dramaticaly in DCS.

Thanks.

[Karon]

9 minutes ago, Skyron said:

Hey Karon, Thanks for the reply.

AIM54 is slow and bad, and F14 has no place in DCS PvP - (Either Cold War because is too good - or in modern is too bad).

The only place that F14 is OK is in PVE when AI goes almost strait to the missile.

 

i'm not an expert so I cant say if AIM54 Data is accurate or not , thats why iam asking here :)))

i understand that its speed depends on many things like Altitude - aricraft speed e.t.c - all im asking is if AIM 54 is accurate and if will it change dramaticaly in DCS.

Thanks.

No problem

I can't speak for the devs, but I guess we may see something changing when the missile API from ED is fully operational and deployed to 3rd parties. It was announced in 2019, IIRC.
Last I recall, the devs were quite happy about its current status.

I see your point about PvP. It is, unfortunately, the fate of the Phoenix. Players who don't know how to deal with it (spoiler alert: it's easy) are louder than the Phoenix users, and this relegates a '60s weapon to the late '90s or 2000s. I wonder why we do not have the AIM-120A, though.
That being said, the Phoenix is not slow; it is actually surprisingly fast, albeit not very explosive. If you compare it against similar-era missiles, it blows everyone out of the water. The problem is that it flies upwards, and thus, the projection of its position on the ground plane makes it look as if it were a slow missile.
See if this helps: https://flyandwire.com/2023/07/27/missiles-kinematics-part-ii-cold-war-era/

If you compare it with older missiles from the '60s, the difference is even more staggering:

This is the kind of opposition you should go against in a realistic scenario (e.g. Iran v Iraq war, starting in 1980). Some are missing, though, such as the R-23.

There are also other issues, such as the huge differences in terms of realism between different avionics, such as the Hornet and FFalcon's radar and RWR. ED is doing a great job updating those, which would help a bit (although they should not even face each other). Next, the AI is a huge problem: when you see a MiG-21 perfectly notching your Phoenix, you are indeed a bit perplexed. I hope that post-Multithreading, ED will have room performance-wise to make the AI less focused on perfect SA and last-mile ditch manoeuvres and more capable of pre-emptive defence and tactics, in concert with their level of SA and ability to recognise the threat and act accordingly. Seeing them VID, for example, would be fantastic.

Anyway, sorry for the wall of text. What you can do now is avoid Ace AI (definitely unrealistic) and create or find servers or squadrons when "RP"-PvP is encouraged. This kind of PvP, where life and resources matter, is the most fun imo.

[draconus]

1 hour ago, Skyron said:

All Data i see from Google says it goes Mach 5 , but it cannot get more than ~ Mach 3.5+

Already answered. Have a read:

1 hour ago, Skyron said:

all im asking is if AIM 54 is accurate and if will it change dramaticaly in DCS

Devs say to not expect any dramatic changes. Performance (FM) is fine as-is now but guidance, some modes/transition simulation and maybe CCM behavior can still be improved. Nothing major though.

You say Phoenix is too good for CW servers? That means it works, right? Blame USN for developing Long Range Missiles for their fleet defenders.

Your missile works vs AI but not vs players? You can't blame them for learning how to defend either kinematically or by well placed notching. Are you sure your shooting parameters are fine and take advantage of the missile specifics? Does AMRAAM have 100% pk for you?

Instead of general "it's bad", please, send us some track or acmi, we'll check and tell you why your missile didn't connect. Then we'll have far more constructive discussions.