FCR In CRM mode, TWS "bumping to a 60* fov by cursor. not functioning

[Icarus31]

Hi All,

Normally when you quickly want to switch form a horizontal 120Deg scan bar, to a 60deg bar, you can move your cursor to the edges when it usually will 'bump' to the desired scan bar. Displayed with the blue vertical lines..

In Rws mode no problem, IN "TWS" mode.... no response in the FCR page. (Witch i previously thought, this was a 'feature' working)

not able to video this, but its easy to find. Just start any flight, and try this out.

My Best regards to all.

! ! ! (EDIT 10-08) ! ! !

My question is... not if it is possible, but is it possible to chance the Azimut in TWS mode by sweeping/bumping your FCR cursor to ones edge... and wil it go to a different azimut bar setting? (by not using the MFD's...!! but HOTAS ONLY.!)

I thought.... that this was previously possible...
 

Edited August 10, 2023 by Icarus31
Better questioning..

[falcon_120]

it's correct. Apparently not a thing for that model/block of the ANG F16 or so it says ED.

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[Icarus31]

38 minutes ago, falcon_120 said:

it's correct. Apparently not a thing for that model/block of the ANG F16 or so it says ED.

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Right...

That I did not know, sounds not logical to me.. but okee.

(edited) If i recal correctly, this has worked earlier...

Edited August 3, 2023 by Icarus31

[skywalker22]

35 minutes ago, falcon_120 said:

it's correct. Apparently not a thing for that model/block of the ANG F16 or so it says ED.

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Well spotted @Icarus31

@falcon_120 do you have a proof? It would be odd, if only in TWS there wouldn't be an option for 30 and 10 deg scan.

Some old FCR screen:

[falcon_120]

Well spotted @Icarus31
@falcon_120 do you have a proof? It would be odd, if only in TWS there wouldn't be an option for 30 and 10 deg scan.
Some old FCR screen:

I dont have a proof since its not me saying this is correct.

BR,

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[skywalker22]

But as you can see I have a proof, this used to be there, and now its gone.

@BIGNEWY can you please check it out what's going on with azimuth scan in TWS mode of FCR? Current F-16 only has 60deg scan, and no other options, like:

 

ps: Image is from latest Chuck's guilde, but thats not the, the point and the fact is that F-16 had adjustable azimuth scan in TWS mode, not it's gone.

Edited August 4, 2023 by skywalker22

[BIGNEWY]

Based on public information we have for the F-16CM Block 50, roughly M4.2+, operated by the United States Air Force and Air National Guard circa 2007 this is correct as is, if you have public unclassified evidence it should be different please PM me.

thanks 

[janitha2]

33 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

Based on public information we have for the F-16CM Block 50, roughly M4.2+, operated by the United States Air Force and Air National Guard circa 2007 this is correct as is, if you have public unclassified evidence it should be different please PM me.

thanks 

yeah makes alot of sense why lockheed took that feature away maybe it was illeagl or too effective in combat or something 

[Falconeer]

12 hours ago, skywalker22 said:

@falcon_120 do you have a proof? It would be odd, if only in TWS there wouldn't be an option for 30 and 10 deg scan.

 

 

I think you interpret OP's post wrong

 

It's not about not being able to cycle between scans. It's about how to...

You can select different TWS scan modes, but not using cursor control on some Blocks of the F-16. If you want a different scan zone in TWS, you need to use th MFD buttons, while in RWS you can bump the cursor to either side of the screen

Edited August 4, 2023 by Falconeer

[Geraki]

The move of the cursor to the edges when it usually will 'bump' to the desired scan bar. Displayed with the blue vertical lines.. must be included in TWS mode also.

There is in real this function, data have been pm previously, review them and ask again your resouces about this specific TWS behavior 

[janitha2]

42 minutes ago, Falconeer said:

I think you interpret OP's post wrong

 

It's not about not being able to cycle between scans. It's about how to...

You can select different TWS scan modes, but not using cursor control on some Blocks of the F-16. If you want a different scan zone in TWS, you need to use th MFD buttons, while in RWS you can bump the cursor to either side of the screen

 

I know that you can change azimuth in TWS.

Why would lockheed remove the ability to change azimuth with the hotas in TWS mode when you can use the hotas on RWS mode?  maybe its easier to push a button on the MFD while pulling 8g? why would lockheed add and remove features like that? can you show me some proof?

edit. 
I found evidence in the HAF manual T.O GR1F-16CJ-34-1-1 page 1-125 
"(except in TWS)" 

Edited August 4, 2023 by janitha2

[Falconeer]

37 minutes ago, janitha2 said:

I know that you can change azimuth in TWS.

Why would lockheed remove the ability to change azimuth with the hotas in TWS mode when you can use the hotas on RWS mode?  maybe its easier to push a button on the MFD while pulling 8g? why would lockheed add and remove features like that? can you show me some proof?

edit. 
I found evidence in the HAF manual T.O GR1F-16CJ-34-1-1 page 1-125 
"(except in TWS)" 

 

You should ask Lockheed Martin that question.... Like i said some Blocks DO have that feature

 

And if you are pulling 8 G's, you shouldn't be pushing any puttons

Edited August 4, 2023 by Falconeer

[janitha2]

23 hours ago, Falconeer said:

You should ask Lockheed Martin that question.... Like i said some Blocks DO have that feature

 

And if you are pulling 8 G's, you shouldn't be pushing any puttons

 

Excatly, you could be pulling 8g and switching to TWS at the same time!

[WHOGX5]

On 8/4/2023 at 9:49 AM, janitha2 said:

I know that you can change azimuth in TWS.

Why would lockheed remove the ability to change azimuth with the hotas in TWS mode when you can use the hotas on RWS mode?  maybe its easier to push a button on the MFD while pulling 8g? why would lockheed add and remove features like that? can you show me some proof?

edit. 
I found evidence in the HAF manual T.O GR1F-16CJ-34-1-1 page 1-125 
"(except in TWS)" 

 

AFAIK, it's because RWS is used both to search for and to engage contacts, while TWS is only used to engage contacts. This means that with RWS you're constantly changing which volumes of airspace you're searching through, hence bump range and bump azimuth makes that process much more efficient.

However, TWS is only used when you've already found whatever you're engaging. The distance from the target group where you switch from RWS to TWS in an engagement is predetermined in the mission briefing. Becuase of this, TWS settings like range or azimuth are simply loaded from the DTC and not meant to be changed while flying. The removal of bump azimuth means that you can move your cursor freely without worrying about accidentaly changing any azimuth settings.

[Falconeer]

4 hours ago, WHOGX5 said:

However, TWS is only used when you've already found whatever you're engaging. 

This is not true

 

4 hours ago, WHOGX5 said:

The distance from the target group where you switch from RWS to TWS in an engagement is predetermined in the mission briefing. 

How exactly does briefing know, where the bandits are to be found in the entire airspace? Again this statement is not true

 

4 hours ago, WHOGX5 said:

Becuase of this, TWS settings like range or azimuth are simply loaded from the DTC and not meant to be changed while flying. 

See above, the pilot can change what he wants in order to find a target. There is no "magic" setting which works every time to see everything and anywhere on the scope

Edited August 5, 2023 by Falconeer

[falcon_120]

See above, the pilot can change what he wants in order to find a target. There is no "magic" setting which works every time to see everything and anywhere on the scope

You are not getting the point of the previous poster. In RL there is a BVR time-line you strictly follows based on the mission. The range is not about knowing where bandits will be, but about knowing at which range you commit or abort, if you commit you probably either go to TWS or even STT for greater accuracy, but you'll have a sorted target asigned and you are just not changing scan/azimuth settings at that time, that would happen before to know how many groups or bandits you are engaging.

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[Falconeer]

9 minutes ago, falcon_120 said:

You are not getting the point of the previous poster. In RL there is a BVR time-line you strictly follows based on the mission. The range is not about knowing where bandits will be, but about knowing at which range you commit or abort, if you commit you probably either go to TWS or even STT for greater accuracy, but you'll have a sorted target asigned and you are just not changing scan/azimuth settings at that time, that would happen before to know how many groups or bandits you are engaging.

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That not what he said in his post. How can i know what he says, if he doesnt say what he means?

 

Noone was talking about when, how or not to commit

[WHOGX5]

56 minutes ago, Falconeer said:

That not what he said in his post. How can i know what he says, if he doesnt say what he means?

 

Noone was talking about when, how or not to commit

@falcon_120 is completely correct. I did not mention commits because my intention was not to give a crash course in air-to-air tactics, but rather to give a quick answer to the question I quoted in my post.

To quickly explain my point in a little bit more detail, in air-to-air combat you use what is called a timeline which is determined before the flight, based on the threats you might encounter during your mission. Each step of the timeline will correspond to you being a certain distance from a target group, and require a certain action to be taken at that distance. At some point during that timeline your flight will "meld", which usually includes switching from RWS to TWS if the situation requires it. As the distance at the meld between you and the target group is known in advance, you can setup optimal TWS parameters for your entire flight before flying the mission, loading it into your respective aircraft via the DTC. Changing those settings during your flight is not necessary because you would practically never use TWS to search for targets, but rather use it during an engagement to engage more than two targets at once at a certain distance.  If you want to search for targets you would use RWS (or VSR) instead.

If you disagree with my explanation, then you are free to provide a counterargument (which preferably consists of more than simply saying "that is not true").