correct as is for sead enroute action SEAD task overrides all waypoint programming

[Nealius]

Setup: 2x AI F-16s with HARMS, SEAD task, uncontrolled spawn, activated via F10 radio menu. Entire flight plan altitude is 22,000ft. Fly to waypoint 2 to engage SA2 and SA3 sites. Easy peasy, used to work perfectly with Hornets.

Well not with Vipers at the moment. If the emitters are active they fly at 9,000ft straight for the emitters, ignoring all waypoints, fire their HARMs, then circle back to waypoint 1 and fly through their fragged waypoints, wasting fuel.

As a workaround I had to silence all the emitters until the AI group reaches a trigger zone at waypoint 2. This shouldn't be necessary for such a straightforward task.

Edited August 20, 2023 by Nealius

[razo+r]

How did you set up the SEAD task? Is it active from the beginning, or did you specifically order SEAD only at WPT2? 

Can you share the mission? 

[Nealius]

11 minutes ago, razo+r said:

How did you set up the SEAD task? Is it active from the beginning, or did you specifically order SEAD only at WPT2? 

I selected SEAD from the task list (not waypoint actions) after selecting aircraft type. This automatically populates SEAD waypoint action for all waypoints 0~end.

I don't have the mission saved in its original state, as I had to do workarounds. 

[NineLine]

We would need to see a track or mission. 

[Nealius]

@NineLine Debug mission attached. Zig-zag flight plan to highlight how they ignore the waypoints. Removed "attack group" on waypoint 3 to isolate problems. 

What they should do is fly waypoints 1-3, employ weapons at 3, then fly to 4 then land. 

Instead, right before reaching waypoint 1 they detect the SAM and make a beeline at 10,000ft (strange mission profile). After attacking the SAM site they return to waypoint 1 and fly the rest of the waypoint sequence.

Adding "attack group" or "attack unit" at waypoint 3 doesn't fix the issue because detection of the SAM site overrides their flightplan completely. Waypoint 3 (and thus the attack group/unit command) do not exist to them until the SAM is disabled.

SEADoverride.miz

Edited August 22, 2023 by Nealius

[NineLine]

I believe that is the intent of the SEAD task, the moment the fighter detects a target it will engage. If you want it to attack the target at a specific point in the mission, either adjust when the SAM site turns on or change the task to ground attack or something similar and use attack group or unit. SEAD is doing exactly what you tasked it to do, to patrol on a path and when it detects a SAM it begins to attack it. 

I did a quicky mission where I have the SAM site emissions off until the F-16s hit a specific zone. They then attack the SAM site not as early as previous. This might be a better option for you. Let me know. 

SEADoverride9LEdit.miz

[Nealius]

That's essentially the workaround I found, but I'm struggling to understand the logic of why it has to be this way. What's the point of Advanced Waypoint Actions if certain tasks overrule them? If SEAD can be programmed under the umbrella of the Ground Attack task then what's the point of the SEAD task? There's also a strange inconsistency where tasks like SEAD and CAP are intended to let the AI go after any target they detect willy-nilly, but other tasks like Ground Attack don't let them go after any ground target they detect. Which tasks are intended to override Advanced Waypoint Actions, and which tasks don't?

 

Edited August 22, 2023 by Nealius

[Grimes]

22 minutes ago, Nealius said:

There's also a strange inconsistency where tasks like SEAD and CAP are intended to let the AI go after any target they detect willy-nilly, but other tasks like Ground Attack don't let them go after any ground target they detect. Which tasks are intended to override Advanced Waypoint Actions, and which tasks don't?

CAS allows the AI to attack any ground unit that it detects willy nilly. Ground Attack is a more general purpose old school idea of attacking a point on the ground, whether that is an airbase, a bridge, supply depot, resting troops, dolphins, parked aircraft, or whatever is up to whatever happens to be at a given point. 
 

 

24 minutes ago, Nealius said:

What's the point of Advanced Waypoint Actions if certain tasks overrule them?

Depends on how you use it I suppose. For basics to setup the options you want them to do before the main mission task is assigned. IMO it is generally better to be more restrictive in their tasking, either limit to a target area or in cases like SEAD, to limit their actual targets. At minimum give the task when you want them to start doing it, don't let SEAD, CAP, etc be active before you want them to actually do that. 

[Nealius]

54 minutes ago, Grimes said:

For basics to setup the options you want them to do before the main mission task is assigned.

They don't do the basics before the main task, they go straight to the main task (SEAD) then return to the basics (waypoints). That's where I'm lost.

 

1 hour ago, Grimes said:

either limit to a target area or in cases like SEAD, to limit their actual targets.

That's no problem when the Advanced Waypoint Actions are followed, but in this case (and CAP, CAS) they're ignored. 

 

1 hour ago, Grimes said:

At minimum give the task when you want them to start doing it, don't let SEAD, CAP, etc be active before you want them to actually do that. 

Is there any way to have SEAD task off for all waypoints except a specific waypoint? Usually when I try removing/disabling the default task from a waypoint it removes/disables it from all waypoints automatically. Or do we always have to do workarounds like delaying target activation, or restricting ROE/ground attack for all waypoints except the one desired? 

[Grimes]

46 minutes ago, Nealius said:

That's no problem when the Advanced Waypoint Actions are followed, but in this case (and CAP, CAS) they're ignored

So delete that task. It isn't required. In fact it is just an obfuscated and renamed "Search Then Engage" task anyway. Anti-ship, CAP, CAS, SEAD, and AFAC are all the same task, they just have different parameters that the mission editor limits you to to make them different. Point is all of these tasks are an uber basic "attack this stuff when you detect it" task and the AI will happily oblige. 

 

59 minutes ago, Nealius said:

Is there any way to have SEAD task off for all waypoints except a specific waypoint? Usually when I try removing/disabling the default task from a waypoint it removes/disables it from all waypoints automatically. Or do we always have to do workarounds like delaying target activation, or restricting ROE/ground attack for all waypoints except the one desired? 

Simply put delete the SEAD task, then when the AI are at the waypoint you want them to start attacking things you could assign the task you want. 

You can always click the "Advanced WP Auto Fill" button at the bottom to toggle it automatically adding the default task and options. It kinda sucks we can't customize what it adds, but thats just how it is. I don't know if I'd call it a workaround, more of setting it up how you want. I learned long ago that the default tasks are only good for the passive tasks like AWACS and Tanker. Everything else should be deleted and changed to what works better. Which ranges from the free flow of search then engage in zone for CAP and maybe CAS or AFAC. To SEAD and anti-ship tasking being given explicit search then engage unit tasks which specify weapons to be used and their amount.

 

[NineLine]

13 hours ago, Nealius said:

That's essentially the workaround I found, but I'm struggling to understand the logic of why it has to be this way. What's the point of Advanced Waypoint Actions if certain tasks overrule them? If SEAD can be programmed under the umbrella of the Ground Attack task then what's the point of the SEAD task? There's also a strange inconsistency where tasks like SEAD and CAP are intended to let the AI go after any target they detect willy-nilly, but other tasks like Ground Attack don't let them go after any ground target they detect. Which tasks are intended to override Advanced Waypoint Actions, and which tasks don't?

 

 

SEAD task is for the flight, waypoint actions are for the AI to do something different at that point. 

If you set a flight to do SEAD then they are going to be watching for that at any point on their route and will do SEAD as soon as something for that is available.

You wanted the AI to do SEAD at WP3 but even a player wouldn't do that. As soon as the aircraft is threatened they are going to try and suppress/destroy the air defences. 

The struggle has always been how much do you want the AI to think on its own and how much you want it to do what its told to do by the mission builder.

SEAD Task makes it act naturally in that it engages when detects. Waypoint commands is telling the AI to do it when and only then. 

[NineLine]

Moved to Mission Editor as this is less about AI and more about the ME. 

[Pikey]

"SEAD" as an Enroute Task is always a lower level than a Perform Task, task. Enroute tasks exist for the duration of waypoint to waypoint in that the AI will detect and prosecute targets itself autonomously until no more are detected or it runs out of ordnance or its disabled. I suspect the HTS increased the detection and prosecution range.

Attack target tasks will sit over that and be executed in a 'battle of preferences' depending on if the enroute task was in progress or popped out.

The description of the enroute task being executed immediately and the AI going wild and trying to reset their waypoint is exactly as expected. The AI goes a little mental and various scripting solutions have tried to fight this unpopular behaviour but its as designed. Basically, CAP, CAS and SEAD that you see are propagated to every waypoint are like letting a police dog off a leash. It goes for the first thing it sees and often not to the desired effect.  And once off the leash, it it difficult to catch.

I can definitely say the description is expected via the limited automation of the ME. Those big enroute tasks are absolutely wild and uncontrollable. What's worse is that the ME actually

There's two issues that I think might help to be solved:

• If enroute tasks could be limited by a polygon zone to keep some degree of leash
• If AI could try to continue routes where they left off.

A third issue is that Enroute Tasks propagate and cannot be removed "in part". I.e you use a drop-down and *CAP is on every waypoint. The most likely reason for it is to stop people from giving the "Nothing" task or even no task to an AI and making it a brain-dead zombie and reducing complaints. Also this is unit-based, so some tasks are forcibly not used (Can't AWACS a Harrier, good, cant CAP a Harrier, bad.) It's also worked around with either incredibly complex and nasty scripting not for beginners or by MOOSE classes that address the lack of ME flexibility and help with Task related actions for controllables. So basically we are at the mercy of the design. It might look bad to get AI doing sillier things in videos, but sometimes you want to be trusted too.
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[Nealius]

On 8/23/2023 at 4:52 AM, NineLine said:

You wanted the AI to do SEAD at WP3 but even a player wouldn't do that. As soon as the aircraft is threatened they are going to try and suppress/destroy the air defences.

The two issues here are that the aircraft were not threatened (all waypoints outside of SAM WEZ), and that's not how SEAD is done. SEAD is going into a specific area to suppress specific threats. Similar issue with the CAP task: a CAP without a defined station and a defined area of engagement is not a CAP. But that's going off on a tangent because now I know that this is a user-error issue of managing expectations. 

On 8/23/2023 at 4:52 AM, NineLine said:

SEAD Task makes it act naturally in that it engages when detects. Waypoint commands is telling the AI to do it when and only then.

+

On 8/22/2023 at 6:26 PM, Grimes said:

In fact it is just an obfuscated and renamed "Search Then Engage" task anyway.

And now it makes sense. Thanks. 

Idea for a wishlist item for these "unleashed" tasks. Would it be possible to have a "target waypoint" checkbox for each waypoint on the waypoint info menu, and upon checking that box it will delete the "unleashed" enroute task from all waypoints, then autofill "attack group" and select nearest enemy group relevant to that task (SAM for SEAD, ship for ASW, etc.) for the waypoint that's been checked, so then the user just needs to adjust the group they want the AI to attack? 

[Grimes]

Replace "threatened" with "detected" and you will get a more accurate idea of how AI choose targets with that task. Their job is to attack detected sam sites, the moment they detect one, usually from RWR getting an indication, they know where it is at and will then go attack it. Once you start adding radars into a mission there tends to be more "Eye of Sauron" AI detection behavior. 

21 minutes ago, Nealius said:

Idea for a wishlist item for these "unleashed" tasks. Would it be possible to have a "target waypoint" checkbox for each waypoint on the waypoint info menu, and upon checking that box it will delete the "unleashed" enroute task from all waypoints, then autofill "attack group" and select nearest enemy group relevant to that task (SAM for SEAD, ship for ASW, etc.) for the waypoint that's been checked, so then the user just needs to adjust the group they want the AI to attack? 

So as a mission editor tool that you select a waypoint, press a button, then click part of the map, it searches the enemy forces in that area, based on the mission role it finds the nearest units that fit that target, then auto populates the waypoint's tasking with those targets assigned? Yeah its doable, and a decent QoL thing. Thats more or less how some AI flight generation code I wrote works. Unless it allowed you to configure which task you wanted it would have the same problem of needing to configure what was automatically generated. Could also ask those web editor guys, they seem to code features in rather quickly.