Air to Ground capabilities

[Spirale]

HI,

What are the A2G capabalities and how? Does the F4 have different aiming assistance for each sort of ground weapons?

Thx

[Northstar98]

Dumb bombs (Mk 8x series, M117 and numerous cluster bombs), guided bombs (Paveway I and II with self-designation capability, GBU-15 on the later DMAS Phantom), AGM-65A/B/D Maverick, AGM-45A/B Shrike.

There are numerous delivery modes, (dive-toss, dive-laydown and laydown, probably others I'm missing), the later DMAS Phantom will have CCIP capability. These methods will be more involved that what we're probably used to in the 4th generation modules.

For that self-designation capability, the DSCG Phantom will have AN/AVQ-23 Pave Spike (TV (day only), direction-stabilised (no point or area track), no derotation device EDIT: this is actually mistaken - it does feature point stabilisation with help from the aircraft, but tracking targets is still something you'll have to do manually, it does have a derotation device, but it only compensates for pod roll (so when looking behind, images will appear upside down), with a 12k ft rated LTD/R.

The DMAS Phantom should have AN/AVQ-26 Pave Tack (first gen. FLIR, similar limitations to Pave Spike (though does have "computer rate aiding", though AFAIK it's still direction stabilised) Pave Tack doesn't appear to have a derotation device at all looking at footage online, there is computer-rate aided point-stabilisation by the looks of it and like Pave Spike moving targets have to be tracked manually. Unlike Pave Spike though it does have additional pointing modes).

Edited November 1, 2023 by Northstar98
corrected: Pave Spike does feature a limited derotation device and has point stabilisation. Pave Tack though doesn't have a derotation device at least when looking at available footage.

[Spirale]

THX North

Do we know which version of the F4 will be delivery?

[Northstar98]

22 minutes ago, Spirale said:

THX North

Do we know which version of the F4 will be delivery?

As I understand it, the first up will be the DSCG Phantom, followed by the DMAS Phantom

[Harlikwin]

On 9/13/2023 at 2:51 PM, Northstar98 said:

As I understand it, the first up will be the DSCG Phantom, followed by the DMAS Phantom

That would make the most sense at least. 

[Northstar98]

6 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

That would make the most sense at least. 

Yeah, probably makes more sense to go older to newer than the other way around. All the screenshots so far are of the DSCG version (Pave Spike, no TISEO, no AN/ARN-101 displays/indicators).

[Stackup]

DSCG coming first confirmed on the HB Discord.

[Harlikwin]

Good. It's the more common of the two. And can approximate IRAF birds better. Be neat if we get the IRAF F14-95 at the same time. Even neater would be if ED did a IRAF F5E. 

[Omega417]

2 hours ago, Stackup said:

DSCG coming first confirmed on the HB Discord.

Info is 3 days old, stale info, things could have changed by now. For all we know the F-4S could be coming first.

[Stackup]

27 minutes ago, Omega417 said:

Info is 3 days old, stale info, things could have changed by now. For all we know the F-4S could be coming first.

Nah it'll be an XF4H-1

[Gunfreak]

1 hour ago, Omega417 said:

Info is 3 days old, stale info, things could have changed by now. For all we know the F-4S could be coming first.

Nah they changed it to the F4F Wildcat.

[Zad Fnark]

I'm happy Bullpups are on the way...

 

[bfr]

6 minutes ago, Zad Fnark said:

I'm happy Bullpups are on the way...

 

That's going to test one's coordination I bet if you're flying alone, having to maintain line  of sight to the missile and target, feed in corrections and also maybe dodge ground fire.

[Zad Fnark]

4 minutes ago, bfr said:

That's going to test one's coordination I bet if you're flying alone, having to maintain line  of sight to the missile and target, feed in corrections and also maybe dodge ground fire.

I figure it'll be similar to the Viggen's RB 05A.  Hopefully less twitchy.

Yeah, I know...   Tanks probably aren't the best targets for these.

[bfr]

11 minutes ago, Zad Fnark said:

I figure it'll be similar to the Viggen's RB 05A.  Hopefully less twitchy.

Yeah, I know...   Tanks probably aren't the best targets for these.

Ah yes, forgot about those. Not a weapon I've used much.

[Omega417]

All of the Phantom Models I've made over the years have had the "Fuze Extender" on the front of the bombs as an option, I think it would be pretty cool if those were added to the sim in some way.

[Nealius]

Does the DSCG variant have a simple computed bombing mode similar to that in the A-4E, or is it 100% manual?

[Smyth]

2 hours ago, Nealius said:

Does the DSCG variant have a simple computed bombing mode similar to that in the A-4E, or is it 100% manual?

Yes, the original F-4 'WRCS' (one of the main upgrades of the F-4D over F-4C, then inherited by F-4E) is closely related to the one in the A-4. Main difference is that WSO needs to lock the ground manually (probably something they decided humans could do more reliably than computers in the 60s). For single player flight, I'm sure Jester AI will take care of this.

[Northstar98]

On 11/10/2023 at 1:20 AM, Nealius said:

Does the DSCG variant have a simple computed bombing mode similar to that in the A-4E, or is it 100% manual?

Yes, there are several automatic bomb delivery modes, the 3 main ones are Dive Toss, Dive Laydown and Laydown.

The modes are more involved than what we’re used to in 4th generation aircraft - as Smyth said the WSO needs to designate a point on the ground using the radar EDIT: actually this is mistaken (toilet2000 is correct) - the radar is used to compute slant range, but in the -34 for the F-4E, the radar is aimed with the optical sight (and all diagrams state that the target is momentarily tracked visually, the bomb button is then pressed and held and the required manoeuvre performed, the bombs then release automatically as set.

However the WSO also needs to input the drag coefficient of the bomb into the WRCS and for releasing multiple weapons a release advance (and not just quantity and interval). The release advance can be used to begin releasing bombs before the calculated release point, allowing you to specify exactly where each bomb in a ripple lands.

EDIT: In offset bombing using a radar identification point (RIP), that's when the WSO needs to lock a ground target.

Edited November 13, 2023 by Northstar98
Corrected - thanks toilet2000

[SickSidewinder9]

On 11/10/2023 at 7:15 AM, Northstar98 said:

Yes, there are several automatic bomb delivery modes, the 2 main ones are Dive Toss, Dive Laydown and Laydown.

The modes are more involved than what we’re used to in 4th generation aircraft - as Smyth said the WSO needs to designate a point on the ground using the radar, but also needs to input the drag coefficient of the bomb into the WRCS and for releasing multiple weapons a release advance, which can be used to release bombs before the calculated release point, allowing you to specify exactly where each bomb in a ripple lands.

 

interesting.

[toilet2000]

On 11/9/2023 at 10:49 PM, Smyth said:

Yes, the original F-4 'WRCS' (one of the main upgrades of the F-4D over F-4C, then inherited by F-4E) is closely related to the one in the A-4. Main difference is that WSO needs to lock the ground manually (probably something they decided humans could do more reliably than computers in the 60s). For single player flight, I'm sure Jester AI will take care of this.

 

On 11/10/2023 at 9:15 AM, Northstar98 said:

Yes, there are several automatic bomb delivery modes, the 3 main ones are Dive Toss, Dive Laydown and Laydown.

The modes are more involved than what we’re used to in 4th generation aircraft - as Smyth said the WSO needs to designate a point on the ground using the radar, but also needs to input the drag coefficient of the bomb into the WRCS and for releasing multiple weapons a release advance, which can be used to release bombs before the calculated release point, allowing you to specify exactly where each bomb in a ripple lands.

 

Dive Toss and Dive Level both don’t require the WSO to lock the ground with the radar. It works extremely similar to the computer bombing mode of the A-4E: you point the pipper at the target, pickle and then either proceed for a toss or a level bombing. Bombs are released automatically using the slant range from radar ranging at the initial pickle.

 

[Smyth]

1 hour ago, toilet2000 said:

Dive Toss and Dive Level both don’t require the WSO to lock the ground with the radar.

Source?

Take a look at page 1-129 of the 1973 F-4C/D/E weapon delivery manual TO 1F-4C-34-1-1. Since it is pre-1980 and non-classified, here is the text:

[KlarSnow]

Of note that -34 refers to the backseater as the “pilot” and the front seater as the “AC” or “Aircraft Commander”

[Northstar98]

6 hours ago, toilet2000 said:

Dive Toss and Dive Level both don’t require the WSO to lock the ground with the radar. It works extremely similar to the computer bombing mode of the A-4E: you point the pipper at the target, pickle and then either proceed for a toss or a level bombing. Bombs are released automatically using the slant range from radar ranging at the initial pickle

Just had a look and yes, you're absolutely correct - corrected.

4 hours ago, Smyth said:

Source?

Take a look at page 1-129 of the 1973 F-4C/D/E weapon delivery manual TO 1F-4C-34-1-1. Since it is pre-1980 and non-classified, here is the text:

Toilet2000 is correct, in the diagrams for Dive Toss, Dive Laydown and Laydown in 1F-4E-34-1-1 (c. 1979, r. 1986), it states that the target is momentarily tracked visually. The radar is slaved to the optical sight's LOS in order to compute slant range.

A ground return only needs to be locked in radar/non-visual offset bombing (where the target is located at a known position relative to an identification point, for a radar identification point, the radar is locked onto said point, the WSO puts the radar into freeze and presses the target insert button, the aircraft then provides steering information to put it over the target).

[toilet2000]

11 hours ago, Smyth said:

Source?

Take a look at page 1-129 of the 1973 F-4C/D/E weapon delivery manual TO 1F-4C-34-1-1. Since it is pre-1980 and non-classified, here is the text:

1F-4E-34-1-1 (April 1979 with latest change in December 1986) page 1-119 and 1-120. Not sure if I can post any images or details since the revisions are post 1980, but it should be very straightforward for you to verify.

What @Northstar98 said is the gist of it and 100% accurate. You can definitely bomb à la A-4E in the DSCG F-4E that we'll get in DCS initially, without the WSO locking the ground.

Edited November 13, 2023 by toilet2000