resolved New spotting is great / New spotting is overcooked feedback thread

[James DeSouza]

57 minutes ago, okopanja said:

Thanks, I am sorry but only dot I can see is in the larger cloud and very faint.

Where exactly are you meaning?  There's lots of aircraft in the picture (there's 4-5 rows of 4 aircraft visible).  If you are meaning the 60km line, what I am talking about is the way that there is a lot of inconsistent variation in the pixel colours, that is how you spot aircraft when you "pixel hunt."  If you look at the red line I put in, there's a very bright pixel just above the last pixel in the red line, and also a very bright pixel down and to the left of the last pixel in the red line, and there's a few other abnormally bright pixels (compared to the general background colour) in the same area.  

In the actual sim you'd be able to differentiate them from the clouds by parallax, but you do not have that in a picture.

Unless you mean you literally cannot see any of the dots other than the very obvious one that is directly in a line above the red and white tower, in which case you might want to see an optician (not a joke or an insult, you should be able to see more even with fairly bad eyesight).

Edited November 5, 2023 by James DeSouza

[Tippis]

2 minutes ago, James DeSouza said:

If you look at the red line I put in, there's a very bright pixel just above the last pixel in the red line, and also a very bright pixel down and to the left of the last pixel in the red line, and there's a few other abnormally bright pixels (compared to the general background colour) in the same area.  

And as mentioned, that's DCS cloud rendering — not spotting sots. Nor are they compression artefacts because that's not the something the file format has. In fact, just in general, there's nothing abnormal about that patch. There is an aircraft at 60km — in fact, there are four — but not where your line is pointing.

3 hours ago, James DeSouza said:

Why?  Because it is advertised as "lossless".  God.  I can't be bothered with that one lmao.

That explains a lot. You should.

[okopanja]

1 hour ago, James DeSouza said:

Unless you mean you literally cannot see any of the dots other than the very obvious one that is directly in a line above the red and white tower, in which case you might want to see an optician (not a joke or an insult, you should be able to see more even with fairly bad eyesight).

This is precisely what I meant, and btw all is fine with my eyes, but both yours and @Tippis's manners could use some improvement.

What kind of the monitor/display device do you use? E.g. model?

[James DeSouza]

41 minutes ago, okopanja said:

This is precisely what I meant, and btw all is fine with my eyes, but both yours and @Tippis's manners could use some improvement.

What kind of the monitor/display device do you use? E.g. model?

Your eyes very clearly are not fine if you can only see the one dot.  There's a dot that is only marginally less obvious than it in the same cloud on the other side for instance, you should at least be able to see that one but can't.  You really need to get your eyes checked.  You might think your eyes are fine, eyesight degradation is (normally) so gradual that you do not notice it, but your eyesight is not fine.

[okopanja]

1 minute ago, James DeSouza said:

Your eyes very clearly are not fine if you can only see the one dot.  There's a dot that is only marginally less obvious than it in the same cloud on the other side for instance, you should at least be able to see that one but can't.  You really need to get your eyes checked.  You might think your eyes are fine, eyesight degradation is (normally) so gradual that you do not notice it, but your eyesight is not fine.

Can you please answer the question?

[okopanja]

@James DeSouza and @Tippis Can you please tell me which of these dots you are able to see?

@James DeSouza I hope you will not mind sharing the device model you are using as well as settings?

[James DeSouza]

15 minutes ago, okopanja said:

@James DeSouza and @Tippis Can you please tell me which of these dots you are able to see?

@James DeSouza I hope you will not mind sharing the device model you are using as well as settings?

Here is an illustration of what I can see and when I can see it on that image, just in case you need it.

 

As for what device, a "Vestel 43 UHD_LCD_TV" (the cheapest 4k tv I could get that didn't have awful reviews) with every setting on it stock.  On an Nvidia card with all of the Nvidia display options also stock (I recently reinstalled windows and felt no need to edit any of it)..  Looking at the picture exactly as it was uploaded.

null

 

And seriously, I have very bad eyesight, 6/12 (6/15 in my left, but I do not know what that actually works out as in terms of bino so lets just go with 6/12).  If all you could see was that one dot then... Well.  You need to see an optician.

Though now knowing that they're there, I only need the zoom to see the 60km line, but that is because it is easier to see things where you have a rough idea where they are.

 

An extra thing that just occurred to me is that there's multiple lighter dots in that "possible 60km line" which are vertically offset, which might mean you can actually also see the 70km line and perspective is shrinking the vertical spacing, but it's hard to tell just with a picture.

 

 

 

An additional thing is that your ultra high contrast image shows that the game is actually rendering the planes ages into the distance, so someone with exceptional eyesight could potentially be seeing these planes up to I think the last one would be 90km.  Crazy.

Edited November 5, 2023 by James DeSouza

[Tippis]

14 minutes ago, okopanja said:

@James DeSouza and @Tippis Can you please tell me which of these dots you are able to see?

This is the formation grid in the sky:

You can ignore his 60km line because it's pointing to clouds, not towards an aircraft.

There are a few blotches in the 60km squares, close to where you'd expect aircraft to be, but note how they also exist in duplicates as part of the differences created by the cloud formations. Any suggestion that you'll be able to distinguish one from the other is just hopeful reverie.

8 minutes ago, James DeSouza said:

As for what device, a "Vestel 43 UHD_LCD_TV" (the cheapest 4k tv I could get that didn't have awful reviews) with every setting on it stock.

So… with all the image and colour processing still turned on?

Also, on the topic of eyesight…

Why is it that a 13.1m object at 20km (= 0.655 mils) is somehow “barely visible” (which you have yet to provide any reasoning for, btw) but two pixels that cover 0.528 mils — i.e. 20% smaller — at the edge of possible colour distinction, are somehow “clearly visible”? How do you justify that double standard? Why does the latter signify “severely deficient eyesight” when the former is supposedly entirely normal eyesight?

Edited November 5, 2023 by Tippis

[okopanja]

So, just to let you know. In windows you can calibrate your monitor get better picture adjusted.

I just did it on my monitor and sadly it did not bring any more dots, except those that I artificially produced.

Obviously ED can not adjust the render to be visible the same way on all devices...

 

[Tippis]

2 minutes ago, okopanja said:

So, just to let you know. In windows you can calibrate your monitor get better picture adjusted.

I just did it on my monitor and sadly it did not bring any more dots, except those that I artificially produced.

That is the likely source of your “mistake”: you're running with accurate colour representation and no pixel filtering.
You probably sit at a sensible distance too.

[James DeSouza]

Just now, okopanja said:

So, just to let you know. In windows you can calibrate your monitor get better picture adjusted.

I just did it on my monitor and sadly it did not bring any more dots, except those that I artificially produced.

Obviously ED can not adjust the render to be visible the same way on all devices...

The only reason I use the screen is watching youtube, netflix and things like that.  Picture quality doesn't really matter.  Actually the picture quality on this screen is ass compared to the older 1080 monitor that I have, but I have a goddamn 3090Ti so I am going to have a goddamn 4k screen and play games in 4k!

 

 

This next bit isn't addressed to you specifically though Okopanja, but so far in this thread we have had:

-Multiple people claiming that the new system allows you to see planes out to 30 miles.

-Multiple people counterclaiming that you can't.

-Multiple people then bringing up screenshot evidence showing that you in fact can.

-A guy bringing up screenshots that he thinks proves that you cannot but actually again prove that you can.

-A guy unintentionally editing the image to show that the game does not in fact show planes out to 30 miles but instead shows planes out to ~60 miles.

 

 

What a beautiful mess this thread and indeed this entire spotting system is.

[Tippis]

8 minutes ago, James DeSouza said:

-A guy bringing up screenshots that he thinks proves that you cannot but actually again prove that you can.

-A guy unintentionally editing the image to show that the game does not in fact show planes out to 30 miles but instead shows planes out to ~60 miles.

…and a guy who mistakes clouds for planes, and using that mistake to conclude that he sees even more things that aren't there. You wouldn't want to forget that guy, now would you?

You have offered a good hypothesis for the first point though: people running on bad display hardware that exaggerate what it being drawn. You finally contributed something constructive. Yay.

Edited November 5, 2023 by Tippis

[okopanja]

27 minutes ago, Tippis said:

That is the likely source of your “mistake”: you're running with accurate colour representation and no pixel filtering.
You probably sit at a sensible distance too.

Actually some 30 minutes ago I calibrated my own display (3440x1440). DCS never looked better. But likely dots are less visible.

[KoN]

On 11/4/2023 at 2:58 AM, James DeSouza said:

According to your profile you're 60 something, weren't flight sims in the 60's a plastic cutout of the plane over the top of a rolling bit of printed canvas? 

 

Oh double checked, remembered wrong, only a spritely 57.

 

Maybe 57 and probably seen more combat than your keyboard. 

Get my drift . 

[KoN]

Reading here again . Like I've said some people love the new spotting some don't . For some it works for some it don't . 

In VR it don't work from my experience. the dots are too big and when with in let's say combat range 3-4 miles the whole dot vanishes , and turns into a ghost . I now got to stay zoomed in or the target is lost . 

Been testing online in competitive WWII and modern warfare. 

We all need to wait and see what ED comes up with. 

[Tippis]

17 minutes ago, okopanja said:

Actually some 30 minutes ago I calibrated my own display (3440x1440). DCS never looked better. But likely dots are less visible.

Funny how that happens when you set up the game properly.

What are your other rendering settings? AA and scaling and the like?

4 minutes ago, KoN said:

In VR it don't work from my experience. the dots are too big and when with in let's say combat range 3-4 miles the whole dot vanishes , and turns into a ghost . I now got to stay zoomed in or the target is lost . 

Do you have a sense of how big the dots are, and how big the 3D model is when it takes over? That's going to be the tricky transition bit to get right, both in term of size and in term of distance when it should happen (relative to the resolution used).

[PawlaczGMD]

To give ED some feedback - IMHO the new dots are better than the old ones, where I couldn't really see them.

 

However, they are significantly overdone. The visibility it gives you is insane. Frequently when objects approach closer, they become harder to spot! That's really backwards.

 

I think it boils down to the fact that when the actual model is rendered, it blends in better, whereas the black dot is very high contrast and artificial. I think an improvement would be to sample some colors from the actual object and render them instead of just black. The size is also too large at big distances. Currently, I can see everything for let's say 20 nm against a clear sky. I think 10 nm would be more reasonable. 

 

Especially in MP, I feel like this system takes away a lot of skill, as with BRAA calls, people will pretty much always spot each other from BVR. In Cold War era and before, this will impact almost every fight, for the worse.

[James DeSouza]

1 hour ago, PawlaczGMD said:

I think it boils down to the fact that when the actual model is rendered, it blends in better, whereas the black dot is very high contrast and artificial. I think an improvement would be to sample some colors from the actual object and render them instead of just black. The size is also too large at big distances. Currently, I can see everything for let's say 20 nm against a clear sky. I think 10 nm would be more reasonable. 

Are you in VR?  Flat screen does seem to "sort of" use appropriate colours, though even there it is obvious.  VR though it is just black for some reason.

[PawlaczGMD]

47 minutes ago, James DeSouza said:

Are you in VR?  Flat screen does seem to "sort of" use appropriate colours, though even there it is obvious.  VR though it is just black for some reason.

Yup, I'm in VR. So I guess they've already figured this out, but it's not yet implemented in VR for whatever reason.

[BIGNEWY]

A reminder to all, keep it friendly in the thread, people can have a different opinion. 

[Licenceless]

17 hours ago, Tippis said:

True enough, so how about this:

Other games have long since offered a more realistic take on spotting, up to the point of basing their solutions on scientific studies of the process of perception. By moving closer to those games, DCS also moves closer to reality.

there is only one game that does that in a realistic way and it's il2 box. Games like BMS and WT make the dots way too big just so people with short attention spans don't spend 20minutes trying to find something to shoot down and give devs their money 

17 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Millionaires? That’s hilarious. You can buy a 4K TV these days for half the price a game console.

maybe you can, and judging by your specs you definetly are richer then normal people

15 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Well IL-2 at least is another sim game that attempts realistic spotting. But players there complain about it too. It’s had its share of giant dot solutions tried and failed. There are always players who just can’t seem to see the other aircraft despite how well the game handles it. So there’s no way this debate will ever end. 

i think the problem with il2 is the exact opposite, people with higher resolutions have much better spotting and people with lower can't spot jack

[Tippis]

2 hours ago, Licenceless said:

there is only one game that does that in a realistic way and it's il2 box. Games like BMS and WT make the dots way too big just so people with short attention spans don't spend 20minutes trying to find something to shoot down and give devs their money

They all use different methods, is the point.

IL2 BoX uses scaling and contrast variation (earlier it was contact dots transitioning to low-LoD models).
WT uses contact dots and supersampling to create aliasing.
BMS uses distance-variant scaling — no dots at all. I have seen discussions about them moving to more complex variants like Sanpat 2, but don't know if that ever happened (also, they're even more into tedium than DCS and don't make money from any level of attention span… but that's a different design intent conversation ).

DCS's solution with contact dots and distance aliasing — and I can already see the fury this will cause — is closer to WT than anything, and always has been. Back in the impostor-dot days, the comparison would probably skew more towards IL2 46.

But they're also picking those solutions for different reasons and to serve different purposes.
IL2 BoX wants you to be able to find and join fights in a world without radars and precision GCI — upper-limit visibility is what needs to be enhanced to make that happen, but also needs to strike a balance where individual planes are not super-obvious.
WT partly wants that, but also wants to show off a spectacle and a perception of huge fights — just showing more is a goal in and of itself.
BMS wants you to correctly see (and track) target aspects at modern dogfighting ranges, which was the original purpose of the scaling model — max-range spotting is more of happy accident.

…and DCS wants… well, as many have pointed out, that's still bit of a question mark. “Better” is the description used, and the specific changes also point towards them wanting to make it more equitable between resolutions, display types, and also zoom levels. It's difficult to discuss which method would work best without a clear purpose, although everyone will have their favourite because it serves a purpose that is close to their heart. Whether that wish matches with what ED want to get out of it is a separate matter.

 

Tl;dr: it would be really helpful in all of this to know the underlying intent. It's easy enough to pick any other game and go “hey this works because [reason]”, but not only are game comparisons largely frowned upon, they're also not very helpful when we don't know if that even relates to the problem the spotting dots are meant to solve.

It would be prime dev blog fodder, if that was a possibility.

Edited November 6, 2023 by Tippis

[SharpeXB]

3 hours ago, Licenceless said:

maybe you can, and judging by your specs you definetly are richer then normal people

It’s certainly possible to spend a lot on hardware for DCS. But again 4K TVs have become very cheap. Literally less than about any other component people have in their rigs here. A small TV like you’d use for PC gaming costs around $2-300 here in the US. That’s hundreds less than a PS5 or Xbox. So no you don’t have to be rich to have one of those. 

3 hours ago, Licenceless said:

i think the problem with il2 is the exact opposite, people with higher resolutions have much better spotting and people with lower can't spot jack

They say the opposite too. That lowering you resolution can be an exploit. It’s a different game so pretty much off topic. The point is people always complain about this in every one of these games so trying to emulate other game is rather pointless. Emulating reality should be the goal. 

[James DeSouza]

6 hours ago, Licenceless said:

Maybe you can, and judging by your specs you definetly are richer then normal people

4k TVs are dirt cheap now, I got mine for £350GBP (about $20,000 USD) and I could have gotten cheaper ones, just the cheaper ones had worse reviews.  I actually did buy an even cheaper one (~320) but it was dead on arrival and so I didn't bother getting the same brand just in case when I refunded it.  They aren't especially high quality screens mind, so might not be the best for a pixel hunting game, but they're usable.

 

 

The "put a silly amount of USD after you mention GBP" joke doesn't work as well nowadays that the two have almost the same value.  Sad.

[okopanja]

15 hours ago, Tippis said:

What are your other rendering settings? AA and scaling and the like?

My settings. E.g. I had DLSS enabled while you guys complained about dots, and was wondering why such a noise.

IMHO: I am skeptical about the DOT thing, I would prefer this way less pronounced. Just go outside and observer high flying passenger plains flying across the sky. You will not se black dots/blocks there. In most cases you will know they are there, just because they contrail. Presently I think this is too pronounced and leads to off-bore shots all the time.

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by okopanja
Added better screenshot