Noob alert -F14 flight controls

[Kaktus]

Greetings community, 

 

pls dont be mad i dont have the skills to find the proper article if there was such to find out what i'm doing wrong, but my f14 boy, i can't get that thing to fly normal, 

 

i own x56 hotas, its generally ok, wonky yes but other planes -flamming cliffs, etc, su25, su25T, even mig21 etc whatever i own works nice, what i am trying to say is f14 seems to be alerging to pitch controls, i can do rolls very nicely, but pitch is.. i tried dead zone, saturation, curvature, i tried it all, it doesnt matter, i try to lets say go pitch positive for somewhere in between, so not max and not min, so i should be pulling lets say 5G, 6G, well i can't, its either Airbus 320 or its a Cobra maneuver.. and nothing in between?

 

Also i set my controls for 1 -pilot cockpit and 2- RIO cockpit, i can switch to RIO and that is it, i'm stuck there.. 

 

Also the views don't work, F5, F8, the view of enemy ground vehicles-impossible, and its set in the keyboard. I really hate the fact DCS UI doesn't see any issues, i should be seeing red flags pop up with my key binds to alert me what or why its wrong.. 

 

Anyhow, if anyone has the 5 minutes to reply and help an old noob go ahead, if not its fine as well.. just had to post it so i know i tried everything.

[bonesvf103]

Hi there,

 

I also fly the F-14 with the X56 but I do not have any problems.  I have set curves for it, but I set the curves within DCS, not with the X56 software.  My settings are:

•    PITCH (DEADZONE AT 4, SATURATION X AT 100, SATURATION Y AT 100, CURVATURE AT 10)
•    ROLL (DEADZONE AT 4, SATURATION X AT 100, SATURATION Y AT 100, CURVATURE AT 10)
•    RUDDER (DEADZONE AT 0, SATURATION X AT 100, SATURATION Y AT 100, CURVATURE AT 10)
•    THROTTLE BOTH – CONTROLS ENGINE RPM
•    WHEEL BRAKE LEFT / RIGHT

These are actually the setting recommended by Chuck ala "Chuck's Guides" and they work well for me.

But since you also report problems with other things such as not being able to switch back and forth in the cockpit, or switch views, it seems to me that there is something going on with your DCS and keyboard inputs.  Maybe you should do an integrity check or file repair, and if that doesn't work, uninstall and reinstall?  Also maybe check to make sure that your input hardware works--your keyboard, your HOTAS--they all have good input.  Maybe a bad USB port?  My X56 joystick has been exhibiting behavior where it stops working and the only thing I can do to get it to work is unplug it then plug it back into the USB (which I kind of expect since it's a few years old and I've given it lots of wear and tear but in the middle of a critical dogfight when you pull the trigger and nothing happens, that kinda sucks).

Anyway, maybe check those things out?

v6,

boNes

[Kaktus]

On 4/1/2023 at 4:46 PM, Dragon1-1 said:

Maybe you should do an integrity check or file repair, and if that doesn't work, uninstall and reinstall?

Good ideas, will try them out, maybe i just suck at f14 as it has no fly by wire and i don't put many hours into flying anyway, but to me it seems too slugish so something  must be off, not being able to sustain 5 Gs in a turn when empty and holding up your airspeed is a no go i think. 

 

how do i do the integrity check and repair? 

 

Also the chuck guide..where can i find it? 

 

Thanks for the help.

[Bealdor]

https://chucksguides.com/ is the website for all of Chuck's Guides.

And this is the specific one for the F-14-

 

Regarding your "stuck in the RIO seat" issue, make sure your controls/bindings are correct.

The RIO has a whole separate control config table in control settings. You need to check both "F14 Pilot" and "F14 RIO" key bindings. So if you want to switch from RIO to pilot seat, the "switch to pilot seat" (don't know the correct name) function must be bound in the RIO key bindings. Otherwise you're stuck as you described.

[Sknusk]

I noticed severe pitch-up sometimes on multiplayer servers, usually on the second load of the f-14. Like 60 degrees pitch up, almost stall, very unexpected. The default pitch was trimmed way too high, so I always check that before taking off (left console below the gear handle) and its worked well for me. Make sure to bind your trim hat. Hope that helps.

[Kaktus]

On 4/1/2023 at 4:46 PM, Dragon1-1 said:

11 minutes ago, Sknusk said:

I noticed severe pitch-up sometimes on multiplayer servers, usually on the second load of the f-14. Like 60 degrees pitch up, almost stall, very unexpected. The default pitch was trimmed way too high, so I always check that before taking off (left console below the gear handle) and its worked well for me. Make sure to bind your trim hat. Hope that helps.

 

What is that? pitch up, you pitch a bit high but the thing goes cobra stupid? because that is what i get, i have two option, pitch like an old airliner or go super cobra.. how do i dogfight in this thing? unless i'm going for the millenium falcon with harrison ford evading lazily to the left i have no way of killing anything with guns or missiles in dogfight as i will either bleed all energy or go turn slow rate and get killed.

 

[bonesvf103]

The only time I experience a sever pitch up on takeoff is if I had landed previously, rearmed, then took off again without resetting my trim.  This is because when I'm landing, I have trimmed the nose up high as needed to get and stay on AOA with a minimum of backpressure on the stick.  So, if I didn't reset that or compensate, when I take off, my nose is going to want to shoot way up high and I immediately have to correct and trim down or I will stall.  So keep that in mind--I should before I do my takeoff, but I get lazy or too rushed and forget, haha.

If you are running the Steam version of DCS you can do an integrity check by right clicking it in your collection, selecting properties, then integrity check (I think, I'm going off the top of my head).  In Standalone, I believe you have that option in the launcher to repair files.

Also, yes if you go to the RIO seat you have a whole new set of controls and keybinds that you must select in "adjust controls."  However, I think switching seats is already set by default.  But check anyway.

v6,

boNes

To that trim thing--is there a trim reset button in the Tomcat like there is in other aircraft?

v6,

boNes

[Sknusk]

1 hour ago, Kaktus said:

What is that? pitch up, you pitch a bit high but the thing goes cobra stupid? because that is what i get, i have two option, pitch like an old airliner or go super cobra.. how do i dogfight in this thing? unless i'm going for the millenium falcon with harrison ford evading lazily to the left i have no way of killing anything with guns or missiles in dogfight as i will either bleed all energy or go turn slow rate and get killed.

 

Yes, such severe pitch that I'm pressing the stick full forward, and in AB as to avoid stall, until I can get the trim back to 0. I don't think there is a reset switch (although I'm not sure), but there is a gauge to reference.

[Kaktus]

can you guys pls let me know how much sustained rate you get at lets say 10k feet, clean configuration, full internal fuel .. so what is max speed in knots you manage to turn so speed is maintained, altitude, and at what degrees per second?  i will try to see if i manage same if not serious problem with something in my dcs

[MAXsenna]

@Kaktus
Not sure if it will help. But you can try to disable Force Feedback in the main settings, and everything related to FFB under the special settings for the Tomcat.
On a side note, why are you guys using deadzones? Do you have jitters in the pots, then I can see why? I avoid deadzones like the plague if I can help it. It makes ie. AAR harder.
Cheers!

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[draconus]

@Kaktus Go dogfight in MiG-29, do a couple landings and say again Tomcat is pitch sensitive. Next time if you have a bit of time run the Free flight instant action mission in Caucasus and try to show up some pitch problems then exit the mission and save a track at debriefing screen. We will check then what's wrong.

If you have problems with view keys:

- check the bindings

- check the options/misc page to enable the views

- check if there is actual object/action related to the view (for F5 you have to have enemy aircraft nearby, for F6 you have to have a bomb/missile in fligth, for F7 there has to be some ground vehicle added, etc.)

- some MP server can have the ext. views disabled

Keep in mind the stores and fuel state - heavy aircraft is not the best maneuvering config.

Try also without curves set on the pitch axis It takes time to get used to the Tomcat - just practice more.

@MAXsenna I agree it should be set as small as possible, not because some guy said it. I have to set some deadzones because my stick can introduce small input when left in the center. That's all to it.

[FR4GGL3]

@MAXsenna I guess it is because of the Saitek Hotas. I've used such a thing in the past. And it was jittery at the 0 Points on almost every Axis, so I also defined Dead Zones to get rid of it. You don't have to do that with higher quality Gear. That doesn't mean the Saitek Hotas Systems aren't good. They are okay and usable. But these small things annoyed me. Oh and that nagging PS/2 like Connection that always got loose...

[MAXsenna]

@MAXsenna I guess it is because of the Saitek Hotas. I've used such a thing in the past. And it was jittery at the 0 Points on almost every Axis, so I also defined Dead Zones to get rid of it. You don't have to do that with higher quality Gear. That doesn't mean the Saitek Hotas Systems aren't good. They are okay and usable. But these small things annoyed me. Oh and that nagging PS/2 like Connection that always got loose...

Yup. Low quality potentiometers can spike. Replaced mine in my, at the time, top end TM F-22 several times. That was when TM 2as still TM and shipped spare parts for free. Even to Europe.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[Kaktus]

OK, UPDATE, 

 

i tried playing with the tune the axis in dcs options, and only way i can pull smooth G's and somewhat constant movements is with these settings:

 

Deadzone        -4

Saturation X    -68

Saturation Y    -60

Curvature       -9

 

 

on mig29 its somewhat stable, still a bit jerky if i pull the joystic pitch wise towards myself, i would get this crazy max turn that bleeds energy insanely, but MUCH MUCH LESS than in tomcat, in tomcat it was so severe i had to minimize my movements as to not pull more than 3 g's, ... more than 3 and i'm asking for it. i thought this is the fly module like this, than its joystick, then its dcs with its settings, i don't know, please guys just tell me as i still learning much and before i learn to use gun or PAL system to track anything down and  dogfight, if you have such settings for pitch control as i put up here, am i "harming" fighting ability of the cat*? because now i pull my stick to the max and  i can pull 8G, 10Gs, go and have a nice blackout and still no stupid cobras are being pulled. what the f is going on?

 

 

on a side note, my dumb track ir 5 is not working as it should be,  lights are all ok, they go green when i start the app, nice, go into dcs, works nice, nice, hit play, ok i can look around, unpause and i can basically look in front of me and in the 6 o'clock position, nothing else, i can do in between.. what? all lights are green, showing its working as it should, i exit game, go into trackir settings, i see it working smoothly. omg.

 

and on a different note, i get crashed, the infamous yellow light, the stupid tracking stops tracking i guess, i guess this equipment should be called CrashIr5, or StopIR5.. i have to in such a case exit game, restart the tr5 and voila, i get another 5 minute of gameplay hassle free, that is if it works at all-look first track ir issue.

 

I don't know if i'm just clumsy and don't know how to set up things, or just unbelievably lucks and everything i buy is crap, from modules, equipments, drivers i install lol..

 

Was thinking about saving a track and sharing it with you, but too much hassle, just trust me on the joystick setup, it works, don't really know what saturations do, i played with it until i got something normal from the plane, but don't know how such movement translates into dogfights?

[9thHunt]

I'd actually recommend no curve at all with the Tomcat.  Since it isn't FBW, you're better off with 1:1 response along the entire throw.

The tomcat also responds better to slow stick movements rather then fast or jerky ones.  Remember that the tomcat does not have a G-limiter like the Hornet.  If you jerk it back too fast, the cat will gladly pull enough Gs to snap the wings and instantly knock the pilot unconscious.

You can still pull high Gs, just pull the stick back gently.

She also doesn't like combined inputs.  If you want to do something like a banking turn, roll first and then pitch.

 

I definitely agree that you should adjust curves in DCS rather then the joystick software though.  Each plane is a little different, and DCS allows you to tune each one individually.

Edited November 11, 2023 by 9thHunt

[FR4GGL3]

1) maybe you need Deadzones if you have jittering on the 0 Position.

2) But don't use curve modifications on the Tomcat. You need to get used to a steady and fine Input. Maybe you need to train it. Set unlimited Fuel, go into any Freeflight and get used to the Handling of the plane. Bank it, try to hold the horizon stable and see what it does when you pull just a liitle bit. Then  see what it does when you pull a tad harder. If it slows down (it might be a good idea to stay in full blower), see what it does if you loosen you pull. How much do you need to loosen it? Sometimes it is enough to release you Fingers somewhat, next step of loosening is open up your wrist somewhat, your ellbow, your arm... Find out what works for your Stick. If I remember right, the Saitek Sticks are soft and you need to be gentle.

3) Look after your TrackIR. Most likely there is some sort of Sun Spot or Reflection. I always need to close the blinds on the window next to me. Or the Angle between the Sensor and your Light Emitter is too big. If you have a bigger Monitor this needs some trial and error. I haven't had much issues on a 32" Monitor, but on my 42" LG TV it is not as easy to find the right spot. You can see it in the TrackIR Software. On the upper right, there is a small window that tells you what your Sensor "sees". If the 3 green dots disappear, there won't be any input.

 

And don't think too much about Dogfights. You need to get used to the Inputs at first. In a Dogfight, you need to do the Inputs naturally without thinking about how to do it. So this task might be too much for now. If you want to try something, maybe you learn how to land on an airport after flying around somewhat. Trust me, it is harder as you might think. If you want to do a Dogfight with the Tomcat, you need to know a lot of things about the handling. It is even harder to land it on a boat (the right way) or to get it refuelled in air (still my personal nightmare). But that is the fun of that "Simulatior Game". Don't give up.

Edited November 11, 2023 by FR4GGL3

[draconus]

On 11/11/2023 at 12:08 AM, Kaktus said:

don't really know what saturations do

Saturation lower than 100 limits your stick input.

 

[Kaktus]

UPDATE II

 

 

so, embbarassment alert, for track ir5 at least i see the problem, my stupid hot keys.. shortkey hotkey whatever for trackir5 were f6, f7,f8, now i changed it to Shift+6, shift+7 etc and so far i see no track ir freeze. 

 

Now to f14 part, yes i see the problem was just being inexperienced, i still don't understand how you get the feel for it so you can pull "max" g's and not pull too hard, i have accustomed to pulling lets say 4, 5 consistant g's, but for max g i usually over pull, meaning i will go to max max and loose too much air speed, but at least i see its not an issue of DCS or control stick, just plain old me. 

 

thanks for the support, now i'm back to tutorials how to drop bombs and lase targets etc etc..and of course crash into tanker while refueling or CV ass while landing.

 

 

[FR4GGL3]

The F-14 is easy to stall by just pulling too hard. If you watch the plane, you will see and hear the Buffeting. At this point she tells you not to pull harder because everything beyond this is not good. You have to watch out for that Buffeting it is an Indicator without seeing any Gauge.

The perfect turn would be in Theory slightly nose down (5-7°) ~6,5 G and around 325 Knots (at least as far as I understand it). Around this parameters should be the so called "corner Airspeed" in which the Tomcat should perform best. If you do this well, you will see that there is slight Buffeting and your Plane doesn't loose speed and turns rather quick. Downside is, that this isn't endlessly as you will constantly loose Altitude. And you will see, that this isn't a Pull where your Stick hits its Base. Start such a turn at 400-350 Knots, so you will have some extra Speed left if you Pull a bit too hard.

I can tell you that I mounted the harder Springs into my Virpil Base. Although I am a Keyboard Warrior (Work), I am also used to Work in the Woods with Chainsaws and Winches (my Family always had own Forest). So I tend to have a hard Grip and Pull. But it is controllable. Always think about building up the Pull in the order Fingers->Hand / Wrist->Ellbow->Arm (not needed most of the time). And release it the same way. Most of the time it is a matter of loosening your Grip or open your Wrist somewhat.

 

 

[72westy]

Sounds like you may have ghosting issue with the stick (known). The X56 works best when plugged into an external powered USB hub (eliminates ghosting issues). As for pitch/roll setting...

 

Deadzone   - (5)

Saturation X   - (100)

Saturation Y   - (100)

Curvature  - (25)