DLSS in VR (2.9 Stable) is useless for me!

[LOW_Hitman]

What a feature, DLSS for VR... omg.. useless it's a mess! blurry as f... ghosting as f... and displays are not readable - no chance. But yeaaaaa 5 fps more!! Updated to stable 2.9 today and lost 5-10 fps with the same settings as in 2.8. - great....

[HoBGoBLiNzx3]

21 minutes ago, LOW_Hitman said:

What a feature, DLSS for VR... omg.. useless it's a mess! blurry as f... ghosting as f... and displays are not readable - no chance. But yeaaaaa 5 fps more!! Updated to stable 2.9 today and lost 5-10 fps with the same settings as in 2.8. - great....

Looks just fine on my end.. Did you even use the sharpness slider?.. What's your resolution? There are a ton of things that matter..

[SharpeXB]

DLSS isn’t a magic bullet, there’s a quality tradeoff for those extra frames. I think some people have success using the Sharpness setting along with it. But the best quality setting for DLSS is Off. 

[Eugel]

Well, on "quality" setting, I believe DLSS reduces the render resolution to 2/3 so basically the exact opposite of what you want to do in VR. So no surprise that it´s quite blurry.

[BIGNEWY]

2 hours ago, LOW_Hitman said:

What a feature, DLSS for VR... omg.. useless it's a mess! blurry as f... ghosting as f... and displays are not readable - no chance. But yeaaaaa 5 fps more!! Updated to stable 2.9 today and lost 5-10 fps with the same settings as in 2.8. - great....

Please keep the feedback constructive. 

If you want help attach your logs, system spec, and screenshots of your settings. 

thanks

[diego999]

2 hours ago, Eugel said:

Well, on "quality" setting, I believe DLSS reduces the render resolution to 2/3 so basically the exact opposite of what you want to do in VR. So no surprise that it´s quite blurry.

 

You're supposed to increase PD to compensate. I went from 1.15 to 1.4 with DLSS activated. Displays are readable and the overall performance is better.

Gosthing is ugly though.

[Eugel]

Well, you are increasing and decreasing the render resolution at the same time. Now of course, the DLSS algorithm is quite efficient, but that efficiency doesn´t come out of thin air.
Basically, if you need to render 3 pixels, with DLSS you´ll only render 2, and the algorithm/AI will guess what the 3rd pixel might be. Sometimes it´s correct, sometimes it isn´t.
This "guessing" takes less computing power than simply rendering that pixel in the first place.
If you increase PD and run DLSS at the same time, you´ll get what the OP is describing: Little performance gain and some blurriness and ghosting.

This is not a VR bug, it´s just the way DLSS works.

[Qcumber]

40 minutes ago, Eugel said:

If you increase PD and run DLSS at the same time, you´ll get what the OP is describing: Little performance gain and some blurriness and ghosting

That's not what I am seeing. Increasing PD to 1.5 and DLSS quality gives me much better visuals and less of the "blurring" than PD 1.0 and DLAA. Ghosting is more related to FPS and ASW/SSW. I've tried a range of settings and this is optimal for me. I also use QVFR. 

[DCoffey]

5 hours ago, LOW_Hitman said:

What a feature, DLSS for VR... omg.. useless it's a mess! blurry as f... ghosting as f... and displays are not readable - no chance. But yeaaaaa 5 fps more!! Updated to stable 2.9 today and lost 5-10 fps with the same settings as in 2.8. - great....

You may be CPU bound, I have a 10700, 32gb, rtx4070ti 2tb SD and the 2.9 release was game changing for me in VR, everything was clearer in the cockpit, I settled on .5 on sharpening everything turned to max except shadows. solid 72fps in marianas when I was getting 20-30

 

I hope you work out whatever your issue is. 2.9 MT is awesome for me in VR

[LOW_Hitman]

vor 12 Stunden schrieb HoBGoBLiNzx3:

Looks just fine on my end.. Did you even use the sharpness slider?.. What's your resolution? There are a ton of things that matter..

hi, yes i tried all settings - including the sharpness slider - cockpit displays not readable - the whole screen is "blurry" unsharp and the ghosting is terrible - its a mess.

vor 11 Stunden schrieb Eugel:

Well, on "quality" setting, I believe DLSS reduces the render resolution to 2/3 so basically the exact opposite of what you want to do in VR. So no surprise that it´s quite blurry.

ill try it but the difference between msaa 2 and dlss is a world and it changes from sharp to unreadable. The biggest issue is ghosting within dlss - its not playable - also when i press a button or switch in the cockpit its like you play'in slow motion.

I mentioned this in other games too - dlss is not useable in VR - the performance increase isn't worth to loose so much quality

[LOW_Hitman]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb BIGNEWY:

Please keep the feedback constructive. 

If you want help attach your logs, system spec, and screenshots of your settings. 

thanks

and bignewy sorry for the emotional bad posting - but iam so tired of adjusting this game to play it in VR. After every single patch i have to start again with adjustments and testing. For example i saved the current setting right after starting MT 2.9, and i lost nearly 10 fps with the "old" settings. There was no performance gain with this update on my system.

[BIGNEWY]

1 hour ago, LOW_Hitman said:

and bignewy sorry for the emotional bad posting - but iam so tired of adjusting this game to play it in VR. After every single patch i have to start again with adjustments and testing. For example i saved the current setting right after starting MT 2.9, and i lost nearly 10 fps with the "old" settings. There was no performance gain with this update on my system.

No problem, but if you want help we will need to see your data. 

DCS.log 
DXDIAG
DCS settings
NVIDIA settings
VR settings in DCS and headset. 

thanks

 

[LOW_Hitman]

vor 14 Stunden schrieb Eugel:

Well, on "quality" setting, I believe DLSS reduces the render resolution to 2/3 so basically the exact opposite of what you want to do in VR. So no surprise that it´s quite blurry.

ok so if i understand you right - i have to set it to max performance? i'll give it a try!

[Hiob]

2 hours ago, LOW_Hitman said:

and bignewy sorry for the emotional bad posting - but iam so tired of adjusting this game to play it in VR. After every single patch i have to start again with adjustments and testing. For example i saved the current setting right after starting MT 2.9, and i lost nearly 10 fps with the "old" settings. There was no performance gain with this update on my system.

I get the sentiment of your post, but be aware that sometimes new GFX features are introduced that haven't been around beforehand. Like in this case the SSS (screen space shadows?). So, depending on their initial setting (enabled/disabled) they may affect your outcome, even if any other setting was kept. Also be aware that with the update, the MT-bin is started by default, not the original bin.

Just a heads-up to raise awareness that a direct A-B comparison is sometimes difficult.

In my case DLSS quality with Sharpening 0.5 did improve the VR performance with a very minor impact on clarity. DLAA improved visuals by a lot. But I'm privileged with pretty high end hardware - so that may affect the outcome.

[Insonia]

21 minutes ago, LOW_Hitman said:

ok so if i understand you right - i have to set it to max performance? i'll give it a try!

No.. "Performance" setting only renders 50% of pixel and 25% of the resolution. Render only 1/4 of the image.  you will have even blurrier image

Quality - 66.6% (2/3) per axis, 45% resolution.

Balanced - 58% per axis, 33% resolution

Performance - 50% per axis, 25% resolution.

Ultra Performance - 33% (1/3) per axis, 11% resolution.

 

DLSS's goal is to sacrifice image quality(by decrease the resolution) and gain FPS. that's it.

The lower the resolution, the blurrier it gets.

 

If you want better image quality over framerate, you need to do the opposite: stay away DLSS/DLAA and TAA, turn them off.

increase your render resolution not decrease them.

And Set pixel density > 1.5, it means it will render >150% of pixel , about 2.2x of original resolution

Edited December 4, 2023 by Insonia

[diamond26]

@LOW_Hitman my experience so far with DLSS is that it works relatively well in combination with Quad Views in Quality mode. Anything more is sacrificing (as mentioned above) quality over performance. It has its artifacts like trailing lights from other planes or not quite straight line of radar sweep in F-18 but seem smoother to no upscaling at all. Using DLSS, clarity in my case is a tad lower compared to using only DLAA. But I guess that's the benefit of using Quad Views with high multiplier in focus resolution.

 

[LOW_Hitman]

vor 53 Minuten schrieb Hiob:

I get the sentiment of your post, but be aware that sometimes new GFX features are introduced that haven't been around beforehand. Like in this case the SSS (screen space shadows?). So, depending on their initial setting (enabled/disabled) they may affect your outcome, even if any other setting was kept. Also be aware that with the update, the MT-bin is started by default, not the original bin.

Just a heads-up to raise awareness that a direct A-B comparison is sometimes difficult.

In my case DLSS quality with Sharpening 0.5 did improve the VR performance with a very minor impact on clarity. DLAA improved visuals by a lot. But I'm privileged with pretty high end hardware - so that may affect the outcome.

thanks for your post! I'll check if SSS is on - that could be the reason for that performance impact (using MSAA 2x)

[Hiob]

36 minutes ago, Insonia said:

If you want better image quality over framerate, you need to do the opposite: stay away DLSS/DLAA and TAA, turn them off.

increase your render resolution not decrease them.

 

DLAA and TAA don't decrease render resolution. They are methods of anti-aliasing, where DLAA at least is superior to MSAA with less performance impact. (It has its own downsides)

[Insonia]

1 minute ago, Hiob said:

DLAA and TAA don't decrease render resolution. They are methods of anti-aliasing, where DLAA at least is superior to MSAA with less performance impact. (It has its own downsides)

True. I should phrase it better.  TAA and DLAA do not lower the resolution. but they create a blur effect as well.

TAA samples 2 or multiple frames, previous framedata blend into the current one will create a blurring effect too.

DLAA also creates motion-blur-like effects. especially on texts

[Hiob]

8 minutes ago, Insonia said:

DLAA also creates motion-blur-like effects. especially on texts

That seem to be dependent on the power of your GPU. With Text I see no blurring at all. The only blurring I see is postion lights drawing a small ghost tail.

I'm under the impression that the performnace of DLAA does scale with the raw power of the GPU. 

I think, bottom line is  there is no such thing as free performance. It all comes with more or less tolerable side effects.

[Nedum]

DLAA uses the same technic for AA as DLSS, so it would be a nice trick if DLAA wouldn't add blur. It's adding pixels by guessing the position and color, and that's good and bad at the same time. Guessing will always not as good as knowing. Guessing is faster, knowing is slower but much more precise.

I can see the text blur coming from DLAA. And that's not all, the whole picture gets a slight blur touch. Not much, but I clearly can see it as soon there are color borders. They are not as sharp as without DLAA. It's not as blurry as the DLSS blur, but it's still there. Even the colors itself are not as crisp as without DLAA. And I would wonder if not, if one knows how DLAA is working. DLAA is working on the complete picture (all pixels). AA is only working on the pixel borders.

 

@DLSS

DLSS isn't made for adding quality, it's made for a performance gain, for the cost of quality. If people try to explain, the quality gets better with DLSS switching on and doing XY things, they are 100% wrong. It's impossible by the nature of how DLSS works.

DLSS takes the picture with fewer pixels and adds some pixels by guessing to get the same count of pixel as the native resolution was before. Now most of the pixels get nearly the same color, but beforehand there were some pixels between them with a completely different color, to make the picture looking sharp and giving the feel of depth. With DLSS the different colors for those effects are gone and the part of the picture becomes blurry. It's the same effect as with a camouflage suite.

That's the nature of DLSS and >>nothing<< can undo that. There will never be any AI that could be right by 100 % with pure guessing. It's impossible. To reach that scenario, the AI would have to know how the future would look like.

To give a picture sharpness, you need many pixels with different colors. If the pixel colors are looking nearly the same (DLSS) the picture will become blurry, and you will lose depth information, which will add the loss of the 3D effect. That's how DLSS works.

At the end, DLSS has >> always<< to add a loss of the picture quality to gain performance. There will be >>never<< any kind of better image quality. If people tell the picture with DLSS is looking better, it's a kind of personal "magic".

Edited December 4, 2023 by Nedum

[LOW_Hitman]

vor 36 Minuten schrieb Nedum:

DLAA uses the same technic for AA as DLSS, so it would be a nice trick if DLAA wouldn't add blur. It's adding pixels by guessing the position and color, and that's good and bad at the same time. Guessing will always not as good as knowing. Guessing is faster, knowing is slower but much more precise.

I can see the text blur coming from DLAA. And that's not all, the whole picture gets a slight blur touch. Not much, but I clearly can see it as soon there are color borders. They are not as sharp as without DLAA. It's not as blurry as the DLSS blur, but it's still there. Even the colors itself are not as crisp as without DLAA. And I would wonder if not, if one knows how DLAA is working. DLAA is working on the complete picture (all pixels). AA is only working on the pixel borders.

 

@DLSS

DLSS isn't made for adding quality, it's made for a performance gain, for the cost of quality. If people try to explain, the quality gets better with DLSS switching on and doing XY things, they are 100% wrong. It's impossible by the nature of how DLSS works.

DLSS takes the picture with fewer pixels and adds some pixels by guessing to get the same count of pixel as the native resolution was before. Now most of the pixels get nearly the same color, but beforehand there were some pixels between them with a completely different color, to make the picture looking sharp and giving the feel of depth. With DLSS the different colors for those effects are gone and the part of the picture becomes blurry. It's the same effect as with a camouflage suite.

That's the nature of DLSS and >>nothing<< can undo that. There will never be any AI that could be right by 100 % with pure guessing. It's impossible. To reach that scenario, the AI would have to know how the future would look like.

To give a picture sharpness, you need many pixels with different colors. If the pixel colors are looking nearly the same (DLSS) the picture will become blurry, and you will lose depth information, which will add the loss of the 3D effect. That's how DLSS works.

At the end, DLSS has >> always<< to add a loss of the picture quality to gain performance. There will be >>never<< any kind of better image quality. If people tell the picture with DLSS is looking better, it's a kind of personal "magic".

 

100% true words! Even outside of VR DLSS is not an option for me. All games are looking more blurry as you said - also terrible ghosting. In VR a perfect example is ACC - not drivable with DLSS - Ghosting is making your eyes sick.

I tried it in a civil flight game and dlss also is making all displays blurry and not readable. Its a nvidia magic feature - turning down your desktop resolution will nearly do the same - excluding ghosting

[Hiob]

1 hour ago, Nedum said:

DLAA uses the same technic for AA as DLSS, so it would be a nice trick if DLAA wouldn't add blur.

Yes, but other than DLSS, it doesn't start from a reduced resolution but from your native resolution. And compared to a scene without any AA, I would argue, that it reduces blurr by a lot. My VR image has never looked so sharp and steady.

1 hour ago, Nedum said:

@DLSS

DLSS isn't made for adding quality, it's made for a performance gain, for the cost of quality. If people try to explain, the quality gets better with DLSS switching on and doing XY things, they are 100% wrong. It's impossible by the nature of how DLSS works.

Also true. But the trademark trick of DLSS that the quality loss (depending on a lot of factors) is rather small. It ranges from "barely noticable" to "hot mess".
But fast movements is definitely one of the weaker areas. 

[DCoffey]

I am not very knowledgeable in this area, but since DCS uses DLSS 3.5 without frame generation and I have a RTX40 series maybe thats why everything looks clearer / sharper for me?

[HoBGoBLiNzx3]

54 minutes ago, DCoffey said:

I am not very knowledgeable in this area, but since DCS uses DLSS 3.5 without frame generation and I have a RTX40 series maybe thats why everything looks clearer / sharper for me?

From what I remember 3.5 has frame generation and so does DCS but you need the 40 series card. I'm sure a dev can confirm or deny this but when it was brought up right before release that is what I remember reading.