FCR detection range

[sirrah]

In the latest FCR video from Wags, he says the FCR has a 6km max detection range for stationary targets and 8km for moving ones.

Did I hear/understand that correctly?

I'm a bit surprised that these detection ranges are so "short".

(At 6km, will we still be out of maximum reach of those laser rangefinder missiles from BMP's and T-90's for instance?)

 

Anyways, can't wait for this awesome new feature in my already favorite DCS module! (gonna need some more HOCAS buttons though )

[Moxica]

I guess they are correct, but during the Jane's Longbow days the strategy was to sneak up close and hide behind cover with only the radar dome over the top;  "Bob up"

Edited December 6, 2023 by Moxica

[NeedzWD40]

15 minutes ago, sirrah said:

In the latest FCR video from Wags, he says the FCR has a 6km max detection range for stationary targets and 8km for moving ones.

Did I hear/understand that correctly?

I'm a bit surprised that these detection ranges are so "short".

(At 6km, will we still be out of maximum reach of those laser rangefinder missiles from BMP's and T-90's for instance?)

 

Anyways, can't wait for this awesome new feature in my already favorite DCS module! (gonna need some more HOCAS buttons though )

Yes, this is correct. It's why the RFHO is a powerful tool: one aircraft with an FCR can scout ahead and find targets within that 6km limit, then pass that data to friendly aircraft further away. The T-90's ATGM is maxed out at ~5km while the BMP-2 is about 4.5km. Neither should be a large threat with the appropriate strategy and planning.

Just now, Moxica said:

I guess they are correct, but during the Jane's Longbow days the strategy was to hide behind cover with only the radar dome over the top;  "Bob up"

This will still be possible. The difference is you're intended to be doing it as part of a team, not lone-wolfing it.

[Moxica]

3 minutes ago, NeedzWD40 said:

This will still be possible. The difference is you're intended to be doing it as part of a team, not lone-wolfing it.

Jane's came with a working Kiowa scout. Just sayin'

[NeedzWD40]

1 minute ago, Moxica said:

Jane's came with a working Kiowa scout. Just sayin'

I mean, Polychop is working on it. But it's not going to integrate with the AH-64D's datalink quite like another AH-64D will. Jane's Longbow 2 also made similar guesses with where that platform was going to go, based on plans and assumptions at the time, but those of course weren't reflected in reality.

The AH-64D with the FCR was envisioned to do this stuff. There's a reason why only 1 out of 4 aircraft were intended to carry it, why it has the incredibly powerful datalink capability, why RFHO is a thing. It wasn't so a single ship could kill all the tanks by their lonesome; it was to augment the entire team's eyes and ears. If the commander tells that AH-64D crew their mission is to go out there, find the enemy, and pass coordinates to other assets (artillery, fixed wing, ships, other helicopters) for destruction, they do that. The crew is expected to have the skills, training, and judgment to know when, where, and how to employ their platform to do that. If that means they don't fire a single shot and let the other guys get all the kills, they do that.

A saying I've been told by those with more experience in these matters: "Someone has to stay behind and clean up the trash."

[Moxica]

Well. Taking out 16  targets in a single salvo is powerful enough for me to go lone wolfing.. 

[Raptor9]

11 minutes ago, Moxica said:

Jane's came with a working Kiowa scout. Just sayin'

One of the key aspects of the AH-64D's FCR system when it was conceived was to be less reliant on other helicopter types to perform its mission in destroying large numbers of tanks and armor. But as @NeedzWD40 mentioned, the advantage of the AH-64D is its ability to work in large groups as a singular fighting force.

Now, this is not a "this aircraft" versus "that aircraft type" sort of rivalry, but rather a different type of fighting style. In the 80's and 90's when the original concept of the AAWWS was being conceived, there were a variety of different unit types doing different missions with different aircraft. You had AH-64's as both attack battalions and as cavalry squadrons, with some differences in doctrine for each. Conversely, you also had OH-58's in both cavalry squadrons and light attack battalions. Again, different mission sets and doctrine. If you had a company of mechanized armor in one valley and an entire regiment of armor in the other, you would obviously send the light attack unit to take on the armor company while the heavy attack battalion takes on the regiment of armor.

If you weren't sure where the enemy was, you could either use a cavalry squadron of AH-64's or one of OH-58D's, or even a combination of the two. Depending on how large the enemy force is anticipated to be, how far you are planning to send your helos, or for how long they need to be out there; this would dictate what capabilities, weapons load, and range/station time you would need, which drives which aircraft types would be best suited.

The bottom line is, don't get locked into only doing a type of mission based on what the first letter of the helicopter designation may be. Use each aircraft in ways that take advantage of their abilities.

[NeedzWD40]

4 minutes ago, Moxica said:

Well. Taking out 16  targets in a single salvo is powerful enough for me to go lone wolfing.. 

A-10 be like "hold my beer and watch my CBU-97 ruin these guy's whole careers." Then the MLRS battery chimes in "get me a grid square and everything in it is dead." Oh, now F-15E is on station with 6 WCMDs on tap. Man, that sounds like a lot more ordnance to wipe out gobs of armor. Quite a bit more than just 16 pieces. I mean, you can still knock out those armor pieces, but if all you gotta do is do a brief scan, hide, and wait for the other guys to blow it all up, that sounds like a big win to me. I can just put one missile into the lead of the column for a bit of chaos, then watch the carnage.

Now, of course, lacking those supporting assets and you're the only one around who can fulfill the mission? Go for it!

[Moxica]

I'm so looking forward to this. It is itching my patience in a good way, as it is not to far away.
One of the benefits is the ability to fire from cover.
Curious/anxious about AI wingmen and their ability to stay behind cover, though.
"Two: I'm hit!"   

Edited December 6, 2023 by Moxica

[NeedzWD40]

8 minutes ago, Moxica said:

I'm so looking forward to this. It is itching my patience in a good way, as it is not to far away.
One of the benefits is the ability to fire from cover.
Curious/anxious about AI wingmen and their ability to stay behind cover, though.
"Two: I'm hit!"   

 

You can already fire from behind cover so with all weapons outside of the AGM-114L. The gun and rockets are well suited to indirect fires and the AGM-114K merely needs the right laser code to grab and a rough heading. The other night, I had an A-10C provide laser designation for me while I never even saw the target - just some coordinates in place, a laser code, and off we went.

Now, AI wingmen on the other hand... That's gonna take a total rewrite of their logic. I think I'd only trust them to mop up after I've eliminated the more threatening targets.

[ricktoberfest]

Curious about the other range not talked about here. The range at which the Apache radar will be visible on aircraft RWR

[NeedzWD40]

2 minutes ago, ricktoberfest said:

Curious about the other range not talked about here. The range at which the Apache radar will be visible on aircraft RWR

If you use the old AI AH-64D as a metric, then about like any other radar. So if you're concerned about being detected, use a quick, narrow scan and don't leave it on all the time.

[ricktoberfest]

16 minutes ago, NeedzWD40 said:

If you use the old AI AH-64D as a metric, then about like any other radar. So if you're concerned about being detected, use a quick, narrow scan and don't leave it on all the time.

I guess I just thought with a low range, the radar is probably tilted below the horizon normally and so might be less visible to RWR than a fighter. Too bad but I guess that’s why the single sweep exists. 

[NeedzWD40]

Like a lot of things, that's a complex subject. The low range just means that's the distance the radar itself can process or otherwise detect returns sufficiently from; the emissions themselves can go much further depending on environment and other factors. I would more likely say that most non-modern RHAW wouldn't be able to separate the emissions from all the other clutter. None of this concerns DCS so it's better to just assume emitting means you can be detected. Just like the Mi-24 has four blinky lights for an RWR that to the AI means it has magic knowledge of all emitters, so the moment an AGM-114L is inbound, they know to go evasive - even though I as a player can't tell jack from those lights.

[pii]

2 hours ago, Moxica said:

Well. Taking out 16  targets in a single salvo is powerful enough for me to go lone wolfing.. 

exactly my thoughts  

[Moxica]

10 hours ago, NeedzWD40 said:

You can already fire from behind cover so with all weapons outside of the AGM-114L. The gun and rockets are well suited to indirect fires and the AGM-114K merely needs the right laser code to grab and a rough heading. The other night, I had an A-10C provide laser designation for me while I never even saw the target - just some coordinates in place, a laser code, and off we went.

Now, AI wingmen on the other hand... That's gonna take a total rewrite of their logic. I think I'd only trust them to mop up after I've eliminated the more threatening targets.

I've done that a lot with Reaper drone as JTAC, lasing target (which is great fun). By the time I get to "In from the east" on the first target, I would have 16 hellfires in the air with the radar.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Moxica

[shagrat]

vor 22 Stunden schrieb NeedzWD40:

Just like the Mi-24 has four blinky lights for an RWR that to the AI means it has magic knowledge of all emitters, so the moment an AGM-114L is inbound, they know to go evasive - even though I as a player can't tell jack from those lights.

If the blinky lights go on be evasive or dead... Should work for AI and players, alike.

[ruiner_]

Do the RWRs for any playable aircraft, at the time period they are modeled for, detect mm wave radar at 40 GHz or whatever the FCR uses?

[NeedzWD40]

On 12/7/2023 at 2:02 AM, Moxica said:

I've done that a lot with Reaper drone as JTAC, lasing target (which is great fun). By the time I get to "In from the east" on the first target, I would have 16 hellfires in the air with the radar.

 

That's a limitation of the baseline JTAC system within the game. With a custom solution or other players, you can effectively chain out your entire missile load in the same span of time. Ripple fire can make this even more effective. Further, the FCR isn't a magic sight that is all-seeing and all-encompassing when coupled with the AGM-114L. The same limitations we have now will still apply with the FCR as a sight - so your missiles may all go for the trucks instead of the tanks. Goes double if you only do one scan and drop down behind cover.

23 hours ago, shagrat said:

If the blinky lights go on be evasive or dead... Should work for AI and players, alike.

In EW cluttered environments, my lights are always on! The buzzer sounds like it's playing Bad Apple! if I turn it on!

2 hours ago, ruiner_ said:

Do the RWRs for any playable aircraft, at the time period they are modeled for, detect mm wave radar at 40 GHz or whatever the FCR uses?

Short answer: Within DCS, yes. Radar is radar.

Long answer: Sensitive subject and anyone with the knowledge is going to say "no comment".

Longer answer (and probably wrong in many ways, but I'll speculate): It's not that hard to physically detect MMW emissions, but historically, MMW radars are not commonplace in most air defense systems outside of CIWS types employed on ships. Being range-limited makes their utility a bit more niche for air defense or air purpose usage. SA-13 prominently has one, but it is a tracking/ranging radar and not a search. Investing in generic RWR technology to be aware of an otherwise limited threat isn't worth the trouble. The band also gets a lot of overlap for communication purposes, so you'd have to filter out a lot of those frequencies. As noted before, for the FCR, the main advantage is not transmitting all the time, being able to scan and process rapidly, and having a signal that rapidly degrades with distance. Detecting that crosses into the realm of more dedicated ELINT and beyond most tactical systems.

Given all this, I wouldn't expect a stock SPO-15 out of a MiG-29 from the 1980s to detect it. On the other hand, I would expect a JF-17's RWR to easily pick it up.

[shagrat]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb NeedzWD40:

In EW cluttered environments, my lights are always on! The buzzer sounds like it's playing Bad Apple! if I turn it on!

That's because you are in a place, you shouldn't be. If you have attack helicopters flying in an environment where they are lit up by multiple SAM batteries, SHORAD and airplanes some SEAD/DEAD and CAP assets did a bad job and the best advice is, evade and get the hell out of Dodge.

Frontal assault on a SAM/SHORAD infested enemy position seems a bit ambitious for a scout, light attack/support platform.

Tanks, IFVs, APC and infantry is your game, preferable in an area already cleaned of anything but the occasional AAA or MANPAD and even those are usually a major concern to helicopters... 

 

[NeedzWD40]

6 hours ago, shagrat said:

That's because you are in a place, you shouldn't be.

Hanging out around friendly ADA, AWACS, GCI, friendly fighters, y'know, the usual.

[hotrod525]

12 hours ago, shagrat said:

That's because you are in a place, you shouldn't be.

 

Isnt the essence of being in the military ?

 

Edited December 9, 2023 by hotrod525

[shagrat]

vor 24 Minuten schrieb hotrod525:

Isnt the essence of being in the military ?

 No, you want to accomplish mission goals, with the least possible risk.

If you encounter a situation where you would basically just sacrifice a trained crew and a million dollar worth of equipment for little to no gain, then you need to consider the option to turn around, adjust and/or fight another day 

 

[hotrod525]

1 hour ago, shagrat said:

 No, you want to accomplish mission goals, with the least possible risk.

If you encounter a situation where you would basically just sacrifice a trained crew and a million dollar worth of equipment for little to no gain, then you need to consider the option to turn around, adjust and/or fight another day 

 

Sometime the mission goal is to be put into the most risked environment... ie Recon by Force, Breaktrought, Breaching, March to the Eny, Clear... I'd assume that grunts life are just way cheaper than AH64...  Anyway im way to far off topic.


Back on Topic; can any ED representative confirm or deny that the Longbow radar will use the same technology as the F16/18 radar ? will we have false positive ? will it have issue picking stuff up dependant of the aspect ? Clutter from the surrending ? Or will it be an all seeying eye that can see everything, all the time ?

 

Edited December 9, 2023 by hotrod525

[SloppyDog]

On 12/6/2023 at 5:17 PM, sirrah said:

In the latest FCR video from Wags, he says the FCR has a 6km max detection range for stationary targets and 8km for moving ones.

Did I hear/understand that correctly?

I'm a bit surprised that these detection ranges are so "short".

(At 6km, will we still be out of maximum reach of those laser rangefinder missiles from BMP's and T-90's for instance?)

People here in this forum are discussing the Techniques, Tactics and Procedures, which are all very interesting and I'm learning a lot from reading it.

However, from the physics/engineering side of things, the FCR has a short range due to the nature of the radar waves. The name of the game here is called Resolution. Basically, is the ability of the radar to detect something and differentiate it from the background or from other things. The higher the wavelength, the better the resolution, however, these higher frequency waves are absorbed by the atmosphere (mainly water droplets) and lose strength over large distances. A millimeter wave radar can detect and identify things in a millimeter scale (or 0,0394 inches, or 3/64" for those who not speak metric), but in turn it loses in detection range.   

In practical terms, what the FCR radar does is to send a very narrow and focused radar beam, and as soon as it is swiping over the targets it is also receiving back the signal reflections. The resolution is so good that the radar knows what is the background and what is a truck, or if there are two trucks parked next each other. Also, different materials reflect radar waves in different ways, so a truck chassis will reflect the radar waves, and the rubber tires will not (as much). Or a tank will have a high reflection all around, including its tracks. Then these signals are processed by the computers to detect, identify and classify the targets. 

The best analogy that I can think of is putting objects in front of a lamp and observing its shadow. You know it resembles a truck or a tank, you just don't know what model it is, so you would classify it as a wheeled or a tracked vehicle. Also it can't tel if is a T-72 or a Abrams tank (if it does IRL, then must be hush-hush top secret). The real magic happens tough when looking at air defenses, where it can differentiate between a Shilka or a SA-6, for instance, just based on its format.

Well, this is a very basic and simple explanation, because when talking about radars, things get really complicated really fast.