check procedures TWS with datalink ON - TMS RIGHT does not work

[Keith Briscoe]

I'm still new to DCS, and I realize there's a 90% (prob higher) chance my issues are user-errors... But, I really struggle to get TWS to behave like the manual and related videos suggest it should. 

Main issue: I see several Track Targets and from what I read, I should be able to TMS Right to convert all those to System Targets (empty boxes).  That does not seem to work any time I've tried.

Sometimes a TMS Up with cursor over a Track Target will convert it to Sys Tgt, but not reliably.  And I can never TMS Right to cycle thru System Tgts, probably because I never have multiple, even though there are multiple radar contacts.

Ad a result, I find myself way behind when I'm in bvr.

Couple more questions, including how to achieve DTT, but I'll wait on that.

Thx for any help.

[Hobel]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Keith Briscoe:

I'm still new to DCS, and I realize there's a 90% (prob higher) chance my issues are user-errors... But, I really struggle to get TWS to behave like the manual and related videos suggest it should. 

Main issue: I see several Track Targets and from what I read, I should be able to TMS Right to convert all those to System Targets (empty boxes).  That does not seem to work any time I've tried.

Sometimes a TMS Up with cursor over a Track Target will convert it to Sys Tgt, but not reliably.  And I can never TMS Right to cycle thru System Tgts, probably because I never have multiple, even though there are multiple radar contacts.

Ad a result, I find myself way behind when I'm in bvr.

Couple more questions, including how to achieve DTT, but I'll wait on that.

Thx for any help.

Can you upload a track file of the situation?   This will help to identify potential user errors.

[Mike_CK]

I can’t ever get it to work either. Seems to require some type of black magic or mastery of the dark arts. 

[Tenkom]

Ok. So I just completely failed at making a post. I had a bunch of images and an explanation but it all got lost.

Instead I made a short youtube clip to show what I mean. Please forgive my utter incompetence at making videos.

F16 TWS Datalink problem

Edited October 28, 2023 by Tenkom

[BIGNEWY]

folks please attach a short track replay showing an example, use single player and you can control the situation more, when you exit the mission you can save the replay during the debrief screen.

thanks 

[Keith Briscoe]

I haven't made a track file before. But I'll try it.

[Keith Briscoe]

3 hours ago, Tenkom said:

Ok. So I just completely failed at making a post. I had a bunch of images and an explanation but it all got lost.

Instead I made a short youtube clip to show what I mean. Please forgive my utter incompetence at making videos.

F16 TWS Datalink problem

 

The example WITH data link is exactly what I'm experiencing. Cannot "soft lock" as Tenkom says. Technically I think that is actually meant to be turning a target track to a System track (using TMS Right). And therefore cannot cycle thru system track to select one to bug.

[DrumminJ219]

For what it's worth, TWS is not something viper pilots realistically mess with anyway. Stick with RWS. Doesn't help your issue I know. 

[Nedum]

Here is a track.Datalink-issue.trk 

The difference: hollowed squares versus none hollowed squares after bugging the tracks in TWS

Datalink off: 1. TMS right long = RWS to TWS 2. TMS right short = white hollowed squares

Datalink on: 1. TMS right long = RWS to TWS 2. TMS right short = still fulfilled yellow squares

With Datalink on, you can't see anymore which tracks you have bugged because the yellow squares stay fulfilled, no hollowed squares anymore.

Edit: I don't know if this is right or wrong, but I am interested in the answer too, so I thought I might could help out.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Nedum
Edit

[Keith Briscoe]

Exactly. I always ha e these filled yellow squares and tms right short does nothing.

I kinda want to trial the f18 and see if same thing happens. No idea if radars work similarly.

[SickSidewinder9]

Same.  It feel like it has never worked as instructed.

23 hours ago, Keith Briscoe said:

Exactly. I always ha e these filled yellow squares and tms right short does nothing.

I kinda want to trial the f18 and see if same thing happens. No idea if radars work similarly.

Little different.  General more reliable as you cycle through hits, but not datalink boxes.  Doesn't like to do that (yet?).  I suck at air to air combat with the Hornet.  IDK if it's just that the F-16 will always be my first love, or that the radar requires a bit more work so my head is in the cockpit more, or if the plane just straight up isn't as good.  It's probably me.

Edited November 3, 2023 by SickSidewinder9

[Tenkom]

On 11/3/2023 at 12:39 AM, Keith Briscoe said:

Exactly. I always ha e these filled yellow squares and tms right short does nothing.

I kinda want to trial the f18 and see if same thing happens. No idea if radars work similarly.

The hornet auto-boxes everything that it can detect. Then you cycle through them with the NWS button.

I think the hornet radar is generally more work but also potentially more effective.
It has much better detection range for one. But also you have a AZ/EL radar page that helps build SA enormously. You can choose to control scan zone manually or automatically while in TWS where the viper locks scan zone to the active target, the hornet can also do that if you wish.
The radar screen can get messy on servers with a large amount of planes and awacs. But you can always distinguish between targets that your radar can and cannot see.

[AndrewDCS2005]

This has been bugging me for quite a while, maybe a year. Today I accidentally found out what is happening with F-16 TWS and target management while using datalink/MIDS/TNDL

First just a small side note for those who still learn the systems. As famous Chuk's guide explains (huge thanks to @Charly_Owl for amazing work for the community ) in Part 13 section 2.2 on datalink track types, datalink-provided tracks (red triangles) are correlated with FCR tracks in TWS mode and become yellow filled squares as track targets.

Transitioning all these track targets to system targets (empty yellow squares) is expected to be done with a single TMS RIGHT short press - this is what is documented in DCS guide, Chuk's guide and so on. But a single TMS RIGHT short does nothing if DL is ON (which is reproducible 100% all the time). All targets remain at track state, and it is not possible to use FCR TWS to shoot at multiple targets. 

However what works while DL is ON is TMS RIGHT short two times in a row (but not too fast) - track targets transition to system targets and simultaneously the closest target becomes a bugged target. Subsequent TMS RIGHT short will cycle through displayed system targets marking them bugged and allowing to shoot at them while in FCR TWS as expected. I haven't seen this double TMS RIGHT mentioned anywhere in docs or community videos, and wonder if this is a bug or expected behavior? When DL is OFF, everything works as documented/expected in FCR TWS - transitioning targets works with a single TMS RIGHT short.

Track attached with repro - first two targets (angels 6/7) where DL-provided + correlated, and single TMS RIGHT didn't work. I used double press few times just to show it works. Then I switched off MIDS/DL and went to next two targets (angels 33) in FCR TWS - first got them as search targets (small solid white squares) then in a while as track targets (bigger solid white squares), then with single TMS RIGHT short transitioned to system targets. Then with TMS DOWN returned back to TWS search and made transitions again, to show a single TMS RIGHT works as expected.

 

 

F16-TWS-DL-NODL.trk

Edited December 26, 2023 by AndrewDCS2005

[AndrewDCS2005]

@Keith Briscoe @Nedum @Tenkom please see this thread - i just accidentally found that with DL ON you need to use TMS RIGHT short 2 times.

 

[AndrewDCS2005]

After more time spent in TWS with DL ON, looks like sometimes (like 1 out of 10 times) TMS RIGHT does something - it picks nearest track target and makes it a bugged target, but does not support multi-target cycling/firing, so TWS is broken anyway. Something is not right here and seems to be specific to F-16 FCR TWS + DL since in other planes TWS works as expected.

Potentially many pilots engage multiple targets with TWS and DL - nearly every server has AWACS and I'd expect forums to be filled with bug reports about this. While there are few earlier threads around this exact bug, but otherwise surprisingly quiet.

[rob10]

12 minutes ago, AndrewDCS2005 said:

Potentially many pilots engage multiple targets with TWS and DL - nearly every server has AWACS and I'd expect forums to be filled with bug reports about this. While there are few earlier threads around this exact bug, but otherwise surprisingly quiet.

That fact makes me ask: have you removed any mods?  There are a number that are causing weird issues with the current patch.  Since it's not being widely reported I'd suspect a user specific issue on this one way or the other.

[AndrewDCS2005]

13 minutes ago, rob10 said:

That fact makes me ask: have you removed any mods?  There are a number that are causing weird issues with the current patch.  Since it's not being widely reported I'd suspect a user specific issue on this one way or the other.

I never used a single mod, and exclusively fly only clean DCS with store-bought/installed airplanes.

[Nedum]

On 12/26/2023 at 1:26 PM, AndrewDCS2005 said:

This has been bugging me for quite a while, maybe a year. Today I accidentally found out what is happening with F-16 TWS and target management while using datalink/MIDS/TNDL

First just a small side note for those who still learn the systems. As famous Chuk's guide explains (huge thanks to @Charly_Owl for amazing work for the community ) in Part 13 section 2.2 on datalink track types, datalink-provided tracks (red triangles) are correlated with FCR tracks in TWS mode and become yellow filled squares as track targets.

Transitioning all these track targets to system targets (empty yellow squares) is expected to be done with a single TMS RIGHT short press - this is what is documented in DCS guide, Chuk's guide and so on. But a single TMS RIGHT short does nothing if DL is ON (which is reproducible 100% all the time). All targets remain at track state, and it is not possible to use FCR TWS to shoot at multiple targets. 

However what works while DL is ON is TMS RIGHT short two times in a row (but not too fast) - track targets transition to system targets and simultaneously the closest target becomes a bugged target. Subsequent TMS RIGHT short will cycle through displayed system targets marking them bugged and allowing to shoot at them while in FCR TWS as expected. I haven't seen this double TMS RIGHT mentioned anywhere in docs or community videos, and wonder if this is a bug or expected behavior? When DL is OFF, everything works as documented/expected in FCR TWS - transitioning targets works with a single TMS RIGHT short.

Track attached with repro - first two targets (angels 6/7) where DL-provided + correlated, and single TMS RIGHT didn't work. I used double press few times just to show it works. Then I switched off MIDS/DL and went to next two targets (angels 33) in FCR TWS - first got them as search targets (small solid white squares) then in a while as track targets (bigger solid white squares), then with single TMS RIGHT short transitioned to system targets. Then with TMS DOWN returned back to TWS search and made transitions again, to show a single TMS RIGHT works as expected.

 

 

F16-TWS-DL-NODL.trk 2.28 MB · 5 downloads

 

Thank you for bringing this up again.

Yes, there was a thread months ago with the same hint for something is off with TWS as long using DL.

And (as one mentioned) it has nothing to do with any kind of modding.

The F16 TWS behaves "strange" since months, and we never got any report from one of the forum Mods.

Every F16 owner can show this "bug" flying the F16 Free Flight Instant Action Mission.

The new thing you found out is, you can bug targets with slow pressing 2 times TMS right. I have to test this.

Another part for me was, as soon I have tracked one target in TWS and activate AA mode after that, TWS has to be activated again, and with that you are not able to track any other target as the first one you tracked before you switched to the AA mode. 

F16 TWS is off with DL on. Doesn't work in kind of what is showing in any known document we have.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Nedum

[skywalker22]

It works OK for me.

f-16_TWS_designateMultipleTargets.trk

[AndrewDCS2005]

1 hour ago, skywalker22 said:

It works OK for me.

f-16_TWS_designateMultipleTargets.trk 211.43 kB · 0 downloads

@skywalker22 my DCS openbeta does not see this track file - how it was created (which version/map/etc)?

[skywalker22]

Its Persian Gulf map. I will do another example on Caucasus map:

 

 

f-16_TWS_designateMultipleTargets.trk

You just have to wait that all the contacts get Track target symbology (big full squares). Small squares are not good enough in TWS mode to designate them into Track targets.

[AndrewDCS2005]

@skywalker22 thanks but in your case there's no DL correlation - you simply have your own FCR in TWS pick the tracks. This works for everyone as expected, no issues. 

As thread says, the issue is only with DL-correlated tracks, quoting my root post above:

Quote

datalink-provided tracks (red triangles) are correlated with FCR tracks in TWS mode and become yellow filled squares as track targets.

To test this, add a E-3 or E-2 to your coalition, and let it provide you tracks over DL/MIDS from further away, before your FCR can detect them (you'll see red triangles). Then after your FCR picks the same tracks, they'll correlate with DL tracks and become yellow squares. Once you have yellow squares, try converting them to system targets with single TMS RIGHT short.

[skywalker22]

Indeed, you are right. It doesn't work:

https://mega.nz/file/OYZHyKbb#aIM7BPEFt7kPHBBauyUVzdJJVjl4xdR_mhEbSw4T0EI

 

[Keith Briscoe]

Gonna try this soon. Thx.

[marzzz]

same problem for me. 
Tried with the instant mission fighter intercept.

Strange thing, TMS right works the first time i played the mission. And after TMS right is broken