nothing to fix The sensation of speed

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

I just leave the IPD option unticked. That works best for me 

[draconus]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

...any small deviation is going to be very noticeable.

Not really that much.

[darkman222]

You feel the need for speed? Go into VR and fly thorugh the Arc d Triomphe. The feeling of speed seems pretty accurate for me. Sorry for the guys with a flat screen constantly changing Fov to keep situational awareness

 

[SharpeXB]

Just now, darkman222 said:

You feel the need for speed? Go into VR and fly thorugh the Arc d Triomphe. The feeling of speed seems pretty accurate for me.

You know because you’ve done this IRL?

[darkman222]

Nope. I am high speed train driver, so I know how it has to look. Lol. How do people know who just ride the bike in real life how it has to look then?! That argument is really a lame starting point for a discussion.

As long as DCS is built from real world values and your VR headset is not off, it should be as close as you can get.

Edited March 1, 2024 by darkman222

[SharpeXB]

8 minutes ago, darkman222 said:

Nope. I am high speed train driver, so I know how it has to look. Lol.

Fair enough

But again there’s nothing wrong with DCS in this regard. Such an effect is easy to achieve. 

[darkman222]

I'd say it strongly depends on hardware including the VR headset youre using. I have the Pimax Crystal and the Varjo Aero. On the Crystal the very close to the pilots head located F16 ICP is hurting my eyes in the Pimax, I have to concentrate to focus on. On the Aero its no problem. I might actually look into the DCS IPD setting, I thought when I was reading through this thread.

But what I am saying is, that if already two different headset produce different impressions, the only way would be to create DCS for one certified VR headset as reference hardware to be used with, which is not feasable for a consumer product....

Edited March 1, 2024 by darkman222

[zetikka]

14 hours ago, darkman222 said:

I'd say it strongly depends on hardware including the VR headset youre using. I have the Pimax Crystal and the Varjo Aero. On the Crystal the very close to the pilots head located F16 ICP is hurting my eyes in the Pimax, I have to concentrate to focus on. On the Aero its no problem. I might actually look into the DCS IPD setting, I thought when I was reading through this thread.

But what I am saying is, that if already two different headset produce different impressions, the only way would be to create DCS for one certified VR headset as reference hardware to be used with, which is not feasable for a consumer product....

 

What you describe really looks like the IDP physical setting of your Crystal that need to be set for you - in both of mine (Reverb G2, Quest 3) the only real impact of changing them is the comfort when looking at the cockpit instruments. Nothing wrong on the DCS side on that one I would say

[darkman222]

1 hour ago, zetikka said:

What you describe really looks like the IDP physical setting of your Crystal that need to be set for you

Yeah., But why does the same IPD setting in DCS produce different results / impressions with different headsets. I mean, if VR was  a universal thing. as long as my eyes in my face stay in the same place when switching headsets, the result should be the same between them.

[zetikka]

I can only guess here...  Each headset is a different combination of micro-screens and optical lenses specific to the maker, so depending on the product you can have is one case a small (pixel-count wise) screen paired with a strong set of lenses to present you with the same FoV as a higher pixel-count screen paired with a less powerfull set of lenses would do. 

As DCS only cares about the pixels the result would look different to your eye. 

And then you have the vendor with small screens who wants to sell you a huge FoV and uses huge lenses, and you get a 55' VGA display...

(edited for typos)

Edited March 3, 2024 by zetikka

[Dragon1-1]

World scale and IPD are different things. Also, when we say "IPD adjustment", we usually mean the distance between the user's eyes, which is adjusted using either motorized lenses or a  physical slider on the headset (or, for some early headsets, not at all). World scale, meanwhile, sets "IPD" of the character within the sim, and calling it IPD, while you could justify it in athe most literal sense, only causes confusion, implying it's some sort of software hack for a hardware problem. For instance, if you have a headset with no IPD adjustment, messing with the IPD setting in DCS is not going to make your experience any better. The commonly accepted term for what this setting does is "world scale", and thus calling it IPD adjustment is, for all intents and purposes, incorrect.

[Dragon1-1]

2 minutes ago, average_pilot said:

It changes the distance between the render cameras, nothing is made to the world. The change is scale happens inside our brains.

Yes, exactly, and this is what VR industry calls "world scale". As you own example shows, calling it "IPD" caused you to assume you can use it to work around your headset's inadequate IPD adjustment range. You're wrong on that account. What's happening is your brain compensating for headset's IPD being off.

[Hiob]

22 minutes ago, average_pilot said:

My IPD is below the minimum range of my headset, so this setting is very welcome.

The ingame setting, regardless of what it is called can't help you with that though....

Physical IDP (Your Eyes and the Lens-System) and in-game IDP (or whatever term you see fit) are and do completey different things, as Dragon1-1 rightfully explained.

Edit: Ups, he was faster......

I have one little gripe though. The statement, that the virtual IDP alone causes worldscaling seems not right to me. First of all - from own experience with very early 3D games, like Quake for example (Using early shutter-glasses from Nvidia e.g.) - setting a bigger value for the camera separation only increased or decreased the depth perception, but did nothing to the worldscale. Also  - how is vertical axis affected by that?

Maybe It works totally different with VR headsets than with 3D-Glasses, but I can't see why right now? 

(Should be easy to test though, with a 2D-mirror that only shows one eye's picture....)

Edited March 4, 2024 by Hiob

[Hiob]

37 minutes ago, average_pilot said:

Yes, it helps because my headset is sending a IPD value that is wrong for me and DCS would use that value to setup the separation between the camera and has an effect on my perception of scale.

Ok, I wasn't aware, that there is a syncronization between hardware and software IDP. Interesting.

However - I'd still would be grateful, if somebody could explain to me how exactly IDP changes the world scale - outside of depth perception that is.

[Hiob]

15 minutes ago, average_pilot said:

If the separation between the left and right cameras inside the game is greater than the separation between your eyes you perceive the world that you see through the VR headset as being smaller than real life. If it is the other way around you perceive it as being bigger. The greater the mismatch the more pronounced the effect.

Google Earth VR exploits this effect to change the perceived scale of the world as you change your altitude.

I know how it's supposed to work and how you think it works. That wasn't my question.

I'm interested in an explanation on the exact mechanism that make it work.

As  I experienced in my example with rather simple 3D-shutter-glasses. Increasing the camera IPD in-game let to a greater depth perception, but not to a change of scale iirc. And I fail to see, how a change in the horizontal distance between the cameras should affect the vertical size of objects. "You're brain does figure it out" is not a sufficiant explanation to me, since such adjustments (of which the brain is absolutely capable) are not instant.

Edited March 4, 2024 by Hiob

[Hiob]

15 minutes ago, average_pilot said:

With shutter-glasses and similar setups the stereo separation changes the physical position of the left and right images on the screen and with it how much you have to converge to look at the objects rendered above or beyond the screen. The result is how strong the stereo effect is. Coupled with it you have the convergence setting that tells at wich distance inside the game the objects converge into a monoscopic image on the display. This second one can have an effect on the scale of things if it doesn't match the IRL distance of the viewer to the screen.

I'm not sure if that what you are referring to because both in VR and with shutter-glasses changing the 'camera IPD in-game' has the same effect.

Changing the distance between the cameras changes how much you have to converge or diverge your eyes to merge the left and right images of an object into a single image. That's were the "magic" of stereopsis lies, or why looking at the world from two different vantage points feels 3Dish.

Imagine you are far enough from a building so that both your eyes are parallel in order to look at it. This is perceived as a big object relatively far from you. Now you move your eyeballs apart from each other far enough so that now to merge the left and right images of the building as they form on the back of your eyes you need some convergence angle. This building will look now as a smaller object closer to you. That is what is happens when you change the cameras in the game: moving them closer or farther will make you change how much you converge your eyes to focus on different objects and with it the perception of sizes and distances.

 

How does that work in the vertical?

[SharpeXB]

It’s interesting to realize your vision and phenomenon like depth perception are just signals your brain interprets. There was this case of a blind person having their vision restored who just couldn’t adapt to it. Depth perception is as much a learned behavior as it is a mechanical or physical product of stereo vision. You could be fitted with prismatic glasses that made you see upside down and given enough time your brain would adapt to it. 

[freehand]

Going to a bike rally riding my bike I was using a car satnav and because the device was on my tank bag the screen vibrated & the screen turned upside down I navigated four roundabouts but could not stand it any longer and pulled over hope this helps   

[Hiob]

29 minutes ago, average_pilot said:

If you mean how this eye convergence thing I explained before work for the size of the objects in the vertical dimension then I only have speculation. (Damn! I shouldn't have used a building as an example! :D)

 

Your answers to things I mostly already knew get longer and longer  - and I don't even disagree with most of it.

But the answer to my actual main question is this basically "I don't know"!  (Which is fine, we're already two)

That leaves my other question. What does a one-eye 2D-Mirror show, when the IDP/Worldscale in DCS is changed?

[draconus]

1 hour ago, Hiob said:

How does that work in the vertical?

In VR it simply doesn't work. If you can reproduce the image of the perfect horizontal lines at different distances there will be no difference in images for each eye, hence no depth perception. Very rare or impossible case though. Light tilt of the head or any single detail will bring the depth preception back.

[Hiob]

2 minutes ago, draconus said:

In VR it simply doesn't work. If you can reproduce the image of the perfect horizontal lines at different distances there will be no difference in images for each eye, hence no depth perception. Very rare or impossible case though. Light tilt of the head or any single detail will bring the depth preception back.

You missunderstood me. I was referring to average_pilots claim, that a change in IDP (aka the horizontal distance between the cameras) causes the change in world scale - and I asked how does a horizontal change in IPD makes objects larger in the vertical dimension.

Edited March 4, 2024 by Hiob

[SharpeXB]

19 minutes ago, Hiob said:

You missunderstood me. I was referring to average_pilots claim, that a change in IDP (aka the horizontal distance between the cameras) causes the change in world scale - and I asked how does a horizontal change in IPD makes objects larger in the vertical dimension.

 

Well since the world scale is the world. Objects would get larger and taller corespondingly in any dimension. It’s best not to overthink it

[draconus]

5 minutes ago, Hiob said:

What does a one-eye 2D-Mirror show, when the IDP/Worldscale in DCS is changed?

The bigger IPD the more camera shift from the center of default view point - that's all.

2 minutes ago, Hiob said:

You missunderstood me. I was referring to average_pilots claim, that a change in IDP (aka the horizontal distance between the cameras) causes the change in world scale - and I asked how does a horizontal change in IPD makes objects larger in the vertical dimension.

Since depth perception is created in the brain with our own IPD any image presented with different IPD will spoil the world scale for us (assuming the game has real life size objects in the first place). No dimensions (both vertical or horizontal) are really changed. It's only illusion - that's why you can't show it on the screenshots.

[Hiob]

25 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

It’s best not to overthink it

Right. But since people are making rather bold claims from my pov - I'd liked to have them backed up with some actual explanations. So far the best explanation was "...and then you're brain figures it out" (boiled down).

To me that's too vague, sorry.

To get it straight: I don't claim to know how it works and I am really interested to learn some actual facts. But the one thing I do know is, brain adaption isn't instant. That's why all those lengthy explanations sound so fishy to me.....

[Hiob]

56 minutes ago, draconus said:

Since depth perception is created in the brain with our own IPD any image presented with different IPD will spoil the world scale for us (assuming the game has real life size objects in the first place). No dimensions (both vertical or horizontal) are really changed. It's only illusion - that's why you can't show it on the screenshots.

When the 2D-Mirror doesn't change (except for a side shift), that would support the idea, that in-game IPD alone is responsible for the change of perceived scale. But has anyone actually checked that?

Your answer present it as a given, that a horizontal change in IPD somehow affects both horizontal and vertical perception in game. That was my question: how and why is that?

And no - the brain doesn't make a flat rectangle into a perfect square - at least not instantaneous.

EDIT: Took some edges off, shouldn't sound so hard..... 

Edited March 4, 2024 by Hiob