MiG-29A FF: capabilities and how will it fit into the (meta)game?

[Harlikwin]

On 5/21/2024 at 3:10 PM, F-2 said:

As I understand it SP mode is also removed from later build Soviet Fulcrums as well and was not generally used in practice 

Your right about processor, though I understand it both were considered insufficient until N019m. The manual ED use I believe is for export aircraft.

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/2378427/
in theory that is enough for an ultra real radar model and it describes N019B in great detail. They could probably estimate the difference in performance due to processor speed.

I don’t think in terms of operations per second N019 and N019EB are that different, like 170,000-200,000 compared to 400,000 in N019M on the Mig-29S. The only available manual newer then the above is ironically the zhuk-me so it can’t be directly compared.

I mean realistically from what I've read is the earlier radar and presumably the export one suffered from being overwhelmed with clutter processing at times over certain high clutter terrain. Also in general they should suffer more than contemporary western radars since the inverted cassegrain antenna while having good gain, also had much larger side lobes compared to planar array antennas.

So if ED should elect to do a real radar model like Raz or HB, then it should have trouble on the deck, and then when looking at city "terrain tiles" as one example.

 

[F-2]

30 minutes ago, Harlikwin said:

I mean realistically from what I've read is the earlier radar and presumably the export one suffered from being overwhelmed with clutter processing at times over certain high clutter terrain. Also in general they should suffer more than contemporary western radars since the inverted cassegrain antenna while having good gain, also had much larger side lobes compared to planar array antennas.

So if ED should elect to do a real radar model like Raz or HB, then it should have trouble on the deck, and then when looking at city "terrain tiles" as one example.

 

That’s pretty much exactly as I heard. I really hope they do a super detailed model as the amount of documentation is pretty crazy.

[AeriaGloria]

8 hours ago, Irisz said:

MiG-29A and MiG-29S do not have G limiter! Fred "Spanky" Clifton flew the Mig-29. He says there was no G-Limiter. ‘I could pull the black out of the stick and bend the airplane’ - around 28:10 in the video. ED Forum LINK

Also of note, the article you quoted mentions vertical scan area when under Beryuza/Lazur guidance, I believe in other modes it defaults to a 10.5 degree 4 bar scan while it often does 6 bars under GCI guidance. It’s a shame we’ll get it after release 

[Irisz]

5 hours ago, AeriaGloria said:

Also of note, the article you quoted mentions vertical scan area when under Beryuza/Lazur guidance, I believe in other modes it defaults to a 10.5 degree 4 bar scan while it often does 6 bars under GCI guidance. It’s a shame we’ll get it after release 

There are many details that make the MiG-29S not a MiG-29S in DCS World, and the ED is not interested in it, or deliberately does not correct it because it violates the law. In DCS World, the current MiG-29S is more like a MiG-29SE (export) because its radar is not stronger than the MiG-29A, it's just that the radar can do more! The documents are there for you to look at. Since the FC3 old product does not generate direct money from this, it does not care! I risk that it won't be fixed when FC2024 is released, because all FC3 settings guarantee that NATO modules will sell better!

And if the $80 MiG-29 9-12 Export comes, they will make it so attractive that you will have to spend $80 because the FC2024 will not be attractive in comparison!

Edited May 26, 2024 by Irisz

[Harlikwin]

23 hours ago, F-2 said:

That’s pretty much exactly as I heard. I really hope they do a super detailed model as the amount of documentation is pretty crazy.

Well, the mi24 was done well, so I hope the 29 will be too. 

[Temetre]

Hm, reading up about soviet radars currently, am I seeing right that the Mig-29A doesnt actually got a 'real' Pulse Doppler radar?

Mig-29A should have the N019 Sapfir 29 from what I see, which seems like its derived from the Mig-23ML. As in, its basically a pulse radar with MTI filter that mainly just removes some of the clutter. Similar principle, if different execution, as the Mirage F-1 radar. So if thats correct, it should be vastly inferior to true PD radars like in the Mirage 2000, F-14 and potentially even the F-4Ns AWG-10.

 

Curious, is that correct, whats your thoughts on that?

[Dragon1-1]

It's not the same radar as in MiG-23ML, or even a particularly close derivative. The N019 is a proper PD radar, while it has a small antenna, it should not be inferior to F-16A radar (itself rather dodgy, but again, small nose with a small antenna). The one with MTI filter was on the MiG-23.

[Seaeagle]

On 7/1/2024 at 8:47 AM, Temetre said:

Hm, reading up about soviet radars currently, am I seeing right that the Mig-29A doesnt actually got a 'real' Pulse Doppler radar?

Yes it does.

On 7/1/2024 at 8:47 AM, Temetre said:

Mig-29A should have the N019 Sapfir 29 from what I see, which seems like its derived from the Mig-23ML.

It has the N019 "Rubin" radar and while it could probably be said to be a derrivative of sorts, its nevertheless a much more capable radar with more modern technology.

On 7/1/2024 at 6:41 PM, Dragon1-1 said:

The N019 is a proper PD radar, while it has a small antenna, it should not be inferior to F-16A radar (itself rather dodgy, but again, small nose with a small antenna).

Small compared to what? - the antenna is 700 mm in diameter(larger than that of the Hornet's APG-65/73).

[Dragon1-1]

1 hour ago, Seaeagle said:

Small compared to what? - the antenna is 700 mm in diameter(larger than that of the Hornet's APG-65/73).

Compared to the F-15 and F-14, which were the benchmarks of fighter radar tech at the time.

[Seaeagle]

5 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Compared to the F-15 and F-14, which were the benchmarks of fighter radar tech at the time.

Sure but those are also much larger aircraft in the same class as the Su-27(which btw also has a comparatively larger antenna). 

[Dragon1-1]

Yes, which is why it's not really a problem, but people should not be expecting miracles, or the performance of a much more advanced radar from our F-16 (or the Hornet, for that matter), which compensates for the small antenna by having fancy electronics. Neither Viper nor Hornet were particularly renowned for their radars at the time of introduction, so to speak. MiG-29 wasn't, either. At the same time, they shouldn't be expecting a primitive piece of crap. This is still a modern PD radar, not unlike on Mirage 2000, just not as new as some other sets we have. 

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

12 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

just not as new as some other sets we have

Well of course '80s tech is less advanced than '90s tech. Both our AN/APG-68V5 and APG-73 are from the early '90s.
I actually think it's great that we get an older version than what may or may not be available on more recent MiGs.

[Harlikwin]

On 7/1/2024 at 12:47 AM, Temetre said:

Hm, reading up about soviet radars currently, am I seeing right that the Mig-29A doesnt actually got a 'real' Pulse Doppler radar?

Mig-29A should have the N019 Sapfir 29 from what I see, which seems like its derived from the Mig-23ML. As in, its basically a pulse radar with MTI filter that mainly just removes some of the clutter. Similar principle, if different execution, as the Mirage F-1 radar. So if thats correct, it should be vastly inferior to true PD radars like in the Mirage 2000, F-14 and potentially even the F-4Ns AWG-10.

 

Curious, is that correct, whats your thoughts on that?

The later mig23 radars were also PD, though a "weird" externally coherent PD. 

[Кош]

Guys none of the 29's had 23 or 23 derived radars or FCS in service. It was considered as a stopgap but in the end they just simplified whole set of avionics compared to Su-27 and started full production. 29A is essentially Soviet 29 without letters, just with simplified datalink with less channels(it's more a consideration for division and regimental commands than pilots as it only affects how many aircraft can 1 GCI post support), other less secret IFF and a backdoor in counter-ECM. Even 29B for non-pact customers was still a simplified N019 - still fully PD and digital while having IFF from 21bis.

[kotor633]

Maybe interesting for some of you:

 

[AeriaGloria]

On 7/2/2024 at 9:58 AM, Seaeagle said:

Yes it does.

It has the N019 "Rubin" radar and while it could probably be said to be a derrivative of sorts, its nevertheless a much more capable radar with more modern technology.

Small compared to what? - the antenna is 700 mm in diameter(larger than that of the Hornet's APG-65/73).

Where did you get 700mm?