MiG-21F Development. Any Interest? (New dev company?)

[artao]

It seems unlikely we'll get a MiG-21bis update anytime soon; as in the next 5 to 10 yrs. I have heard "rumors" shall I say that the company is a bit ... unstable ... as well as having at least three other planes in-queue before the -21 is even considered. And the -21 isn't in any known pipeline i'm aware of.

And I think we can all agree that the -21 needs an update.

And yet it seems to be one of the most popular modules. .... Its foibles are more than simply frustrating at this point, once you learn of them from others. Some are quite obvious simply trying to use them, like the radar weather filter not working and hard-coded radio frequencies. Others not so much as the Grom not actually being beam-riding, but simply SARH; there's another A-A missile the -21 can use that's also beam-riding, but not sure if that's even attempted in-game with our bis. But if the dev company is dying/dead, we have little to no hope of improvements there. The entire module is so old that DCS has advanced far further than its own capabilities, and deprecated others.

Also, many IRL pilots preferred the 'F' over the 'bis." More nimble. Held speed betterer in turns. More responsive.

Beyond that, more modern variants such as the Bison and LanceR. It's really a travesty that aircraft devs don't do multiple variants -- aside from the Mirage F-1 devs. Not that interested in that plane, but I'll buy it JUST because they implement multiple variants. We, as users, should ...... "ask for" ... that more.

SO!!
The MiG-21F is older than the bis, and many pilots preferred it over the bis. There's tons of 'em in museums all over the world. Laser scanning and/or photogrammetry is easy enuf, for the model. Free software, free public access to samples. The flight model wouldn't be hard to ... well ... IDK the "DCS way" with regards to flight model modelling. Can it simply use straight-up aero sim data? Cuz from a laser-accurate model that can be derived pretty darn tootin' well. And from there what's left is avionics.

I've never attempted modding DCS, nor any other game aside from making a few maps for old FPS.

However, I've studied 3D graphics for over 30 yrs now. I'm quite capable in that regard -- tho dealing with game engines isn't in my ken really. But, coming from old-school modelling I'm decent at low-poly but look good. ... Depending what the render engine supports. And that is on DCS. It seems it can handle normal maps, cool. How about displacement maps, or vector displacement. SDS? What poly/vertex count is acceptable?

Regarding aero, I have a fair bit of experience designing model rockets. That's aero, and aero is aero. I've designed and flown rocket-boosted gliders that exceed "normal" speed ranges of fighter aircraft as well, so I do grok aero.

Avionics is the largest stumbling block probably. But with the 'F' being so old that info can't  be hard to come by, mostly unclassified. Bison and LanceR less so, but hardly hard to find.
Perhaps a new company is needed, eh? Since no one else is jumping on possibilities. Or, rather, a bunch of companies with very few devs each.
Perhaps a better solution would be the merging of several current DCS module makers. Combine resources. Each of 'em has super-limited dev. resources, so DCS module dev is slow. Put them all in the same company and add more, that would speed up a LOT i reckon.

 

Which is to say: Looking for others interested in forming a dev company to make such things.

Other projects could include:

Century Series aircraft pack in the spirit of FC3

Maps, such as Fulda Gap, Vietnam, Spratly Islands, Taiwan straight, and others.

Edited January 11 by artao
Adjust title

[draconus]

16 hours ago, artao said:

Century Series aircraft pack in the spirit of FC3

No more FC3 type aircraft are planned for DCS. Look for MAC separate product.

There are F-100D and F-104 currently in development as FF modules.

[Avimimus]

Su-7B seems to be a gap.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

Sounds like a wishlist item to me:  

https://forum.dcs.world/forum/207-dcs-core-wish-list/

That being said, yes the MiG-21 rework has been announced years and years ago already and doesn't seem to be close to happening. It is a very nice aircraft and I'd love to see it treated properly as well - it is the oldest 3rd party FF module in DCS and started out as a mod (and it shows really).

[lmp]

The version you're probably thinking of is the F-13, not the F. The F was a guns only variant built in very limited numbers. The F-13 could employ two K-13/R-3S missiles, but lost one of the two NR-30 guns. This was the first widely exported (and copied) MiG-21 version that saw a lot of combat.

One "problem" with the F-13 and the later RP-21 equipped MiG-21s is that the ingame MiG-19P and MiG-21bis already do what would make the earlier 21 variants interesting and unique. Even though they (mostly) shouldn't.

For example, you mentioned the Kh-66 and RS-2US beam riders. Those don't go on the bis, the radar (RP-22) is incompatible. If the MiG-21bis developers hadn't included those missiles, it would make, let's say, a MiG-21PFM more viable. Different radar (despite a similar designation, the conical scan RP-21 is quite different from the monopulse RP-22), different missiles, no internal gun, completely different cockpit... That's worth a full price tag in my book. But because the bis already has those weapons, even though it shouldn't, the PFM would just be a worse bis in just about every way. Most players simply don't know or care that the beam riders are unrealistic on the bis.

The MiG-19P developers "stole" some appeal of the MiG-21F-13 by including the R-3S missiles. From what I understand this isn't strictly unrealistic, but was something added late and in a limited way. Most users never had heaters on their MiG-19Ps. And again, most people won't know or care - they see R-3S on MiG-19s as "standard".

Now, I'm not saying if that didn't happen we'd have two or three generations of MiG-21s to choose from. Chances are we wouldn't. And I understand why the developers did what they did. Those early jets have limited gameplay potential so every bit helps. After all, don't like it, don't use it. But because they did do it, I think the unlikely prospect that we'll get another MiG-21 became even less likely.

[WinterH]

It looks somewhat unlikely for us to get any new Fishbed family members sadly.

Personally what I'd love are the earliest and the latest Chinese J-7 variants. Earliest one would be basically MiG-21F-13, but with the option of having another set of pylons, and not sure but I believe retaining the second NR-30 gun from the MiG-21F. Not sure but maybe it also had a better engine too? In any case though, they are so close with F-13, I think it would be very feasible to include both in a single module to be fair.

A very late J-7 on the other hand, is a very cool separate development of the MiG-21 family to explore. With a bubble canopy, enhanced double delta wings with (admittedly small) leading edge slats, somewhat modern avionics, keeping the lightweight early MiG-21 fuselage form, but enhancing it in every way etc. Of course it was vastly outdated compared to the latest available at its time, but I don't mind that in the least, all I care about is that it is a very interesting development of the MiG-21 lineage that would be very cool to explore, and it would still be an interesting light fighter for lower intensity 2000s scenarios.

Personally any no-gun original MiG-21 variant is a no-no for me. I really dislike the second MiG-21 generation, PF, PFM etc, but I guess I'd find even those somewhat interesting if someone would make one. But strongly prefer F-13.

LanceR and Bison would be cool, but I don't think they are very likely to happen, and they will have a comparatively limited sales appeal I'd guess. I'd get them for sure, but many will find them unappealing for this or that reason.

On 1/11/2024 at 9:49 PM, artao said:

Grom not actually being beam-riding, but simply SARH; there's another A-A missile the -21 can use that's also beam-riding, but not sure if that's even attempted in-game with our bis.

This isn't fully true tbh. Kh-66 "Grom" does mostly act as a beam rider (and it's an A-G missile), there are problems with its implementation probably, but it doesn't act like a SARH missile. Air to air beam rider however, RS2-US, does act like one, and that's unrealistic, very much. Also being a basic beam rider, you should be able to guided it onto groun just as well as Kh-66 I'd think, which doesn't work because of how it acts like a SARH. In any case, Bis shouldn't even be able to use these missiles anyway, as they needed the older radar type, which in turn, couldn't guide SARH afaik.

On 1/11/2024 at 9:49 PM, artao said:

It's really a travesty that aircraft devs don't do multiple variants -- aside from the Mirage F-1 devs. Not that interested in that plane, but I'll buy it JUST because they implement multiple variants. We, as users, should ...... "ask for" ... that more.

As someone who clamored for variants for almost as long as I've been doing DCS (which is just over a decade now), this really depends. In some cases like F-14 and Mirage F1, it is relatively plausible, though F1M could be argued to be different enough nobody would bat an eye if it was a separate module maybe, kudos to Aerges indeed. But other things like F-15C vs E, F-16A or early block C vs C block 40+, MiG-21F vs PF vs MF vs Bis, F-4B vs E vs J etc are sooooo different, they really are essentially making a separate module from scratch, so it isn't realistic expecting them all in a single module. Only way to, perhaps making that viable for both developer and customer could be, if they are being made by the same company, owner of one variant would get a discount for the other etc. But even then, only if it at least shares considerable enough effort from earlier module to make it a shorter/cheaper enough development for the studio making it.

On 1/11/2024 at 9:49 PM, artao said:

The flight model wouldn't be hard to ... well ... IDK the "DCS way" with regards to flight model modelling. Can it simply use straight-up aero sim data? Cuz from a laser-accurate model that can be derived pretty darn tootin' well. And from there what's left is avionics.

Yeah that doesn't work quite that way, no. As far as I know, it'd basically need to be a new flight model custom coded for other MiG-21 variants. Besides, if it's made by another company by default it'll have to be so anyway.

On 1/11/2024 at 9:49 PM, artao said:

Perhaps a better solution would be the merging of several current DCS module makers. Combine resources. Each of 'em has super-limited dev. resources, so DCS module dev is slow. Put them all in the same company and add more, that would speed up a LOT i reckon.

Again, it doesn't really work this way. Popular analogy is, getting 9 women pregnant won't yield a baby in a single month, and it applies quite well indeed. Making a full fidelity DCS module roughly comprise of a few separate disciplines:

• 3D modeling
• Texturing
• Systems programming
• Flight model programming
• Writing manuals
• Creating content like missions, trainings etc

Each tend to require a distinct specialization, and throwing two flight model engineers won't necessarily improve the speed at which an FM can be made by much, if at all.

On 1/11/2024 at 9:49 PM, artao said:

Century Series aircraft pack in the spirit of FC3

I would personally say pretty please NO. I don't believe FC level aircraft belong together with full fidelity ones.

Having said all that, do I want more MiG-21s in DCS, or indeed, a hopefully improved module of the Bis? Hell yes I do. Perhaps Red Star Simulations will consider one after their MiG-17F, we'll see.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

On 1/11/2024 at 7:49 PM, artao said:

It seems unlikely we'll get a MiG-21bis update anytime soon …

So you haven't read the zillion threats at the proper place (M3 MiG-21 subforum...) where we've all said we'd like to see more variants and all aside from the MiG-21Bis overhaul promised to happen after F4U-1D release .

[F-2]

CIA has the F-13 and a number of other mig manuals on their website

[exhausted]

On 1/12/2024 at 8:03 PM, lmp said:

The version you're probably thinking of is the F-13, not the F. The F was a guns only variant built in very limited numbers. The F-13 could employ two K-13/R-3S missiles, but lost one of the two NR-30 guns. This was the first widely exported (and copied) MiG-21 version that saw a lot of combat.

One "problem" with the F-13 and the later RP-21 equipped MiG-21s is that the ingame MiG-19P and MiG-21bis already do what would make the earlier 21 variants interesting and unique. Even though they (mostly) shouldn't.

For example, you mentioned the Kh-66 and RS-2US beam riders. Those don't go on the bis, the radar (RP-22) is incompatible. If the MiG-21bis developers hadn't included those missiles, it would make, let's say, a MiG-21PFM more viable. Different radar (despite a similar designation, the conical scan RP-21 is quite different from the monopulse RP-22), different missiles, no internal gun, completely different cockpit... That's worth a full price tag in my book. But because the bis already has those weapons, even though it shouldn't, the PFM would just be a worse bis in just about every way. Most players simply don't know or care that the beam riders are unrealistic on the bis.

The MiG-19P developers "stole" some appeal of the MiG-21F-13 by including the R-3S missiles. From what I understand this isn't strictly unrealistic, but was something added late and in a limited way. Most users never had heaters on their MiG-19Ps. And again, most people won't know or care - they see R-3S on MiG-19s as "standard".

Now, I'm not saying if that didn't happen we'd have two or three generations of MiG-21s to choose from. Chances are we wouldn't. And I understand why the developers did what they did. Those early jets have limited gameplay potential so every bit helps. After all, don't like it, don't use it. But because they did do it, I think the unlikely prospect that we'll get another MiG-21 became even less likely.

I disagree about the PFM being less desirable because the bis has taken some of its features. First, the PFM is lighter and more nimble than the bis. Second, the PFM has an interesting cockpit and systems setup. Third, the PFM was of a time where it made sense to have a dedicated point interceptor rather than a multirole fighter. 

I also don't agree the MiG-19P developers stole the F-13's thunder in anyway. First, the MiG-19P is so rare and nuanced that not even MiG-19 fans want to fly it. Second, the F-13 is a much better fighter than both the MiG-19P and the bis. Third, historically speaking, the MiG-21F-13 is the aircraft that famously defeated the F-104s in low level energy fights; gave the Israelis a black eye; challenged US air supremacy over North Vietnam, and kept US fights at bay over Cuba. Further, it was also the basis for the nearly exact J-7I and was the true basis for the MiG-21 Red Eagles program. 

The MiG-21F-13 is a huge appeal, and the bis is sort of a crutch variant that really doesn't do a great job of representing the MiG-21 in DCS alone, at all.

[lmp]

I'd buy a well done F-13 or PFM, but for anybody who isn't a huge MiG-21 fan they would be a tough sell. The bis is heavier but it also has a much more powerful engine (ridiculously so with the second stage AB). The PFM has only two missile pylons and it can't carry any of the good stuff. Forget about R-60s, R-3Rs, R-13s. You're stuck with just the earliest R-3S and RS-2US missiles. You can either have a gunpod or a fuel tank. You don't even get a gyro gunsight, just a fixed reflector sight. If the bis didn't have the Kh-66, then a PFM would have that going for it - being the only PGM capable Russian full fidelity plane. A poor man's fighter bomber. But that's not the case and capabilitywise it's just a worse bis. And for anyone who isn't a MiG buff this will matter.

The F-13 is perhaps a little more desirable. More of a pure dogfighter, lighter, internal gun, better visibility, better looking... The improvements of the second generation versions focused on all weather bomber interceptions. For the type of flying most of us are interested in these just weigh it down. But on the other hand the F-13 is just an early cold war dogfighter, it's not really good for much else. Once there are some Western jets of the early supersonic era, it'll make more sense, but at the moment it would have no opponents and would exist alongside another MiG from the same era with the same armaments.

5 hours ago, exhausted said:

The MiG-21F-13 is a huge appeal, and the bis is sort of a crutch variant that really doesn't do a great job of representing the MiG-21 in DCS alone, at all.

It represents the MiG-21 well in the context of our other Cold War planes. We have a late variant of the F-5, the Mirage F1, a late F-4, a late MiG-23... Everything from the seventies. The F-13 would be more out of place in this company than the bis. 

Edited January 14 by lmp

[Bremspropeller]

8 hours ago, exhausted said:

Third, historically speaking, the MiG-21F-13 is the aircraft that famously defeated the F-104s in low level energy fights;

Never happened. The -104s were either out of gas or never saw the -21s before the merge. Also, the -104s had suffered from an arms-embargo before the war, so few flight-hours because of lacking spares. The "MiG-21s clearly won" is just a fairytale. All that said, the -21 was still the better (easier) dogfighting platform.

On 1/13/2024 at 11:06 AM, WinterH said:

Personally what I'd love are the earliest and the latest Chinese J-7 variants. Earliest one would be basically MiG-21F-13, but with the option of having another set of pylons, and not sure but I believe retaining the second NR-30 gun from the MiG-21F. Not sure but maybe it also had a better engine too?

The Wopen engines were R-11 copies and were worse than the original. China had virtually no experience back then and it took decades to make up for that.

3 hours ago, lmp said:

I'd buy a well done F-13 or PFM, but for anybody who isn't a huge MiG-21 fan they would be a tough sell. The bis is heavier but it also has a much more powerful engine (ridiculously so with the second stage AB). The PFM has only two missile pylons and it can't carry any of the good stuff. Forget about R-60s, R-3Rs, R-13s. You're stuck with just the earliest R-3S and RS-2US missiles. You can either have a gunpod or a fuel tank. You don't even get a gyro gunsight, just a fixed reflector sight. If the bis didn't have the Kh-66, then a PFM would have that going for it - being the only PGM capable Russian full fidelity plane. A poor man's fighter bomber. But that's not the case and capabilitywise it's just a worse bis. And for anyone who isn't a MiG buff this will matter.

But it would fit much better into the interesting timeframes. It could carry four missiles with the Monsun carriers, adding an a$$ton of drag.

One could also think about the FL, which is just as relevant in the middle east (and India, lotsa people - just saying). It will be less capable than the PFM, but at least the IAF at some point installed the outboard pylons.

I have yet to see a pic of an FL with anything on those outboard pylons in flight. What's on there on the R/H jet?

Edited January 14 by Bremspropeller

[Avimimus]

On 1/13/2024 at 10:06 AM, WinterH said:

I would personally say pretty please NO. I don't believe FC level aircraft belong together with full fidelity ones.

Well, FC4 isn't going to happen - but one can think of it as taking over an AI aircraft for use in 'aggressor' training?

Alternatively, one can just not use them or can exclude them from server lists!

[WinterH]

Or the best yet, they may not happen, and thus not taking away from possibility of more full fidelity aircraft, yaaaay!  ED is supposed to do MAC too anyway, where they would presumably belong, if that ever happens

[exhausted]

5 hours ago, lmp said:

I'd buy a well done F-13 or PFM, but for anybody who isn't a huge MiG-21 fan they would be a tough sell. The bis is heavier but it also has a much more powerful engine (ridiculously so with the second stage AB). The PFM has only two missile pylons and it can't carry any of the good stuff. Forget about R-60s, R-3Rs, R-13s. You're stuck with just the earliest R-3S and RS-2US missiles. You can either have a gunpod or a fuel tank. You don't even get a gyro gunsight, just a fixed reflector sight. If the bis didn't have the Kh-66, then a PFM would have that going for it - being the only PGM capable Russian full fidelity plane. A poor man's fighter bomber. But that's not the case and capabilitywise it's just a worse bis. And for anyone who isn't a MiG buff this will matter.

The F-13 is perhaps a little more desirable. More of a pure dogfighter, lighter, internal gun, better visibility, better looking... The improvements of the second generation versions focused on all weather bomber interceptions. For the type of flying most of us are interested in these just weigh it down. But on the other hand the F-13 is just an early cold war dogfighter, it's not really good for much else. Once there are some Western jets of the early supersonic era, it'll make more sense, but at the moment it would have no opponents and would exist alongside another MiG from the same era with the same armaments.

It represents the MiG-21 well in the context of our other Cold War planes. We have a late variant of the F-5, the Mirage F1, a late F-4, a late MiG-23... Everything from the seventies. The F-13 would be more out of place in this company than the bis. 

 

The F-13 wouldn't at all be out of place, since it was in continuous use all over the world. Especially in any Asian map, it has a home. At least as much as our WWII stuff. 

2 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

Never happened. The -104s were either out of gas or never saw the -21s before the merge. Also, the -104s had suffered from an arms-embargo before the war, so few flight-hours because of lacking spares. The "MiG-21s clearly won" is just a fairytale. All that said, the -21 was still the better (easier) dogfighting platform.

I may have misremembered the exact type of MiG-21s used, but those Pakistani F-104s were not able to beat the MiG-21's low level acceleration, similar to how American Phantoms were surprised to be outdistanced by MFs in 1972 at low level.

[Bremspropeller]

I think they were MiG-21FLs in all cases. Those had the vanilla R11F-300 motor as opposed to the MF with the R13-300. In '65, there was at least one instance of the 104 accelerating away from the IAF F-13s intercepting them. Not sure about the geometry, but the F-13s supposedly had a high q limitation (low altitude, high airspeed) that may or may not have played a role.

According to some sources, some of the PAF F-104As had the J79-GE-11 engines retrofitted, which should have been a bit more powerful than the original -3s. Can't dig it up at themoment, though. There aslo were a couple of jordanian airframes, with different Sidewinder-wirings (no underwing 'winders).

F-13s were also highly relevant in the Middle East and Europe. Considering the upcoming Kola map, both Finland and the Soviet Union flew the F-13. Finland used the F-13 as a makeshift recce-jet into the 80s. Just like the EGAF.

 

Edited January 14 by Bremspropeller

[lmp]

33 minutes ago, exhausted said:

The F-13 wouldn't at all be out of place, since it was in continuous use all over the world. Especially in any Asian map, it has a home. At least as much as our WWII stuff. 

I didn't say it would be out of place. I said it would be more out of place than the bis. The maps we have and are getting in the future support the bis at least as well as the F-13, the other modules support it better and the aircraft itself was built in larger quantities and longer than the MiG-21F-13. Explain to me how the bis is "sort of a crutch variant that really doesn't do a great job of representing the MiG-21 in DCS alone, at all" and the F-13 isn't.

[-Cipher-]

I would definitely love to have the F-13 as a separate module, it had much better maneuverability than the Bis and very good visibility with its bubble canopy design, the design so good that even China continued using it for their F-7 jets

[Bremspropeller]

8 hours ago, lmp said:

The PFM has only two missile pylons and it can't carry any of the good stuff. Forget about R-60s, R-3Rs, R-13s. You're stuck with just the earliest R-3S and RS-2US missiles.

The EGAF SPS and SPS-K (local designation of their PFMs) were upgraded to carry R60s, starting at least as early as 1983. This was when JG 1 did their upgrades. The upgrade ended in 1985.

("697, Montur-Start, Überfahrt zu Halifax-Start, Kanal 1" - A. Schulz, p. 189 and 197)

JG-2's SPS jets were used in TANGENTE-88 (Tangent 88), a shooting-campaign at Astrachan (Soviet Union) and the wing for the first time shot the R60 missile. 12 SPS and one US two-seater were ferried to Astrachen to participate in the live-firing exercise.

("30 Jahre Starten und Landen" - p.96)

Edited January 14 by Bremspropeller

[exhausted]

3 hours ago, lmp said:

I didn't say it would be out of place. I said it would be more out of place than the bis. The maps we have and are getting in the future support the bis at least as well as the F-13, the other modules support it better and the aircraft itself was built in larger quantities and longer than the MiG-21F-13. Explain to me how the bis is "sort of a crutch variant that really doesn't do a great job of representing the MiG-21 in DCS alone, at all" and the F-13 isn't.

The bis is the most bloated version that was obsolescent before it went into production. The F-13 was on par or exceeded its competition, and as was said before became the basis for many similar variants and copies. We would get a LOT more mileage out of the F-13 than we are getting with the bis. 

Edited January 15 by exhausted

[lmp]

I disagree. MiG-21bis contemporaries include the F-5E, the Mirage F1 or the Phantom and it's competitive against all of them. And what's perhaps more important, we actually have those contemporaries in the game. Which of the F-13 contemporaries do we have in DCS? In practice, a MiG-21F-13 would end up fighting the same Western fighters that the MiG-21bis faces now, but without the superior T/W ratio, missiles worth a damn or even a decent gun. I fail to see the incredible mileage we're missing.

[Bremspropeller]

There are no real "contemporaries". The F-13s were used into the 80s, chinese copies even much longer.

For many war-timeframes, the 21bis wasn't even around for several years.

[WinterH]

9 hours ago, lmp said:

Which of the F-13 contemporaries do we have in DCS?

While I'm very much in the Bis camp, if we speak historically, F-13 did fight or at least had the potential to meet in a shooting war things like F-100 and F-104, F-4E, all of which are in development for DCS. Other things like F-5E and Mirage F1, while later generation and in general superior, aren't too far stretches either. Also if we stretch into what-ifs including aircraft made by Soviet Union too, MiG-19 and MiG-17 are rough contemporaries.

People fight those fighters even in MiG-15s or MiG-19s, and will do so in MiG-17s soon, so a MiG-21F-13 should prove to be an interesting option imo. Sure, Bis is overall the more capable aircraft, duh, it has over a decade over the F-13. But while I personally believe alleged maneuverability advantage over Bis is probably way overblown by legend and lore, it will still have some advantage in some flight regime or other, which should be interesting to explore, and it's canopy should allow for considerably better visibility outside.

Imo for purely the opportunity to explore the earliest and purest MiG-21 experience alone, it is worth getting an F-13 in DCS.

[Bremspropeller]

Iran and Iraq also had F-7B fighters during their conflicht, though it seems they didn't use them too heavily.

[WinterH]

Just now, Bremspropeller said:

Iran and Iraq also had F-7B fighters during their conflicht, though it seems they didn't use them too heavily.

Technically, I suppose there's also India and Pakistan, one being a MiG-21 user, the other F-7.

[Bremspropeller]

Also Bangladesh and Sri Lanka. Though those are different models of the F-7 and I'm not sure how much action they saw. Sri Lanka maybe some counter insurgency stuff.

Edited January 15 by Bremspropeller