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Pimax Crystal Core and Pro


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54 minutes ago, Dangerzone said:

Whoa! Shut the front door! Is this fair dinkum? I didn't realise that. This does indeed add a spanner into my logic. 

And to answer your question - I've never had a VR with eye tracking / DFR. 

I still wonder how much of an upgrade going from Reverb->Crystal Light will be, compared to Reverb-> Crystal (with DFR) and whether the upgrade is worth the $699, or whether I put that 'towards' a full Crystal. 

It's harder because, as you mentioned the Crystal has the battery, and the extra weight. It's kinda like they're missing the 'sweet spot' of the market. Given that they've also announced the upcoming Crystal Super later this year, it's unlikely that they're going to have another option, so unless a competitor comes out and fills that sweet spot, I have decisions to consider.

Thanks again for enlightening me on the Reverb's pixel count.

 

I think my mind is in the same place as Dangerzone's. I would have pre-ordered the CL already if it included DFR,  if its cost  was between the CL and the Crystal. I think I have to wait for the reviews on the CL to make the decision. I recall the G2 3184x3096 resolution quoted by Nedum had been quoted by others when setting up resolution overrides in the OpenXR Toolkit. However, I am not sure if this resolution is an equivalent comparison to the Crystal's quoted resolution. Everyone remarks about the big increase in clarity provided by the Crystal compared to the G2. Was the G2's optics that inefficient compared to the Crystal's? I would like to be better informed than I currently am when making the final decision.

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PC Hardware: i9-12900k, RTX 3080 10GB, 32GB DDR5 4400MHz, NVME.2 Drives, Alienware 38" 3840x1600 144MHz Monitor, TrackIR Pro Clip, Pimax Crystal

Flight Controls: Winwing Orion 1 FA-18 Stick and Throttle HOTAS / Logitech Rudder Pedals

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For any headset you need to add a minimum multiplier of 1.5 to the base resolution to get good results. I run my QP at about 3500x3500. If the crystal light can get away with less SS then it should be equivalent to other headsets in terms of performance. However, the QP has eye tracking so I use QVFR which reduces my overall pixel count by about 70%. I can run ultra and high settings at 72 fps. I would not be able to do this with a CL without using FFR. 

5800x3drtx407064Gb 3200: 1Tb NVME: Pico 4: Rift S: Quest Pro

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55 minutes ago, Tom Kazansky said:

Is it by about or to about 70%?

Just curious.

 

Sorry that should be to 70% but this varies by settings and does not factor in DLSS. With DLSS Quality this brings it to about 30%.

Base settings are with meta link set to x1.7 for 2880x2700 pixels = 7.78Mp per eye

With QVFR vertical and horizontal set to 0.4x0.4, centre res 1.3 and periphery 0.5. this gives an overall pixel count of 5.37Mp per eye (5.37/7.78*100=69%). 

Add in DLSS with scaling set to quality and this brings the total pixel count to 2.16 (scaling applies to horizontal and vertical pixel counts rather than total pixel count). This gives an overall reduction to (2.16/7.78*100) 28% of full res. 

Edit: as the CL has a resolution of 2880x2880, if you apply the same QVFR settings you should get similar overall performance but in fixed mode. 0.4*0.4 centre size is about as low as you can go in fixed mode. 0.5*0.5 is better. 


Edited by Qcumber

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4 hours ago, Qcumber said:

Sorry that should be to 70% but this varies by settings and does not factor in DLSS. With DLSS Quality this brings it to about 30%.

Base settings are with meta link set to x1.7 for 2880x2700 pixels = 7.78Mp per eye

With QVFR vertical and horizontal set to 0.4x0.4, centre res 1.3 and periphery 0.5. this gives an overall pixel count of 5.37Mp per eye (5.37/7.78*100=69%). 

Add in DLSS with scaling set to quality and this brings the total pixel count to 2.16 (scaling applies to horizontal and vertical pixel counts rather than total pixel count). This gives an overall reduction to (2.16/7.78*100) 28% of full res. 

Edit: as the CL has a resolution of 2880x2880, if you apply the same QVFR settings you should get similar overall performance but in fixed mode. 0.4*0.4 centre size is about as low as you can go in fixed mode. 0.5*0.5 is better. 

 

thanks

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8 minutes ago, 7Coolhand said:

Is this setting still relevant?

it should decrease the pixel count as well?

IMG_0270.jpeg

For a meta headset but not for crystal.

It will reduce your FOV and remove some of the pixels you don't see. I find that anything less than 0.93x0.93 I can see the edges. 

5800x3drtx407064Gb 3200: 1Tb NVME: Pico 4: Rift S: Quest Pro

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8 hours ago, Qcumber said:

For any headset you need to add a minimum multiplier of 1.5 to the base resolution to get good results. I run my QP at about 3500x3500. If the crystal light can get away with less SS then it should be equivalent to other headsets in terms of performance. However, the QP has eye tracking so I use QVFR which reduces my overall pixel count by about 70%. I can run ultra and high settings at 72 fps. I would not be able to do this with a CL without using FFR. 

I find that I dont need to oversample my crystal.  Can I make it look sharper by oversampling?  Sure, but for me, rendering at native resolution is way sharper than the G2 ever was, performs better, more FOV than the G2, and in most cases I can run with no AA.  The only places I see shimmering in DCS are things like fences on the ground, I can tolerate that while I taxi and then its a non issue after take off.   These things give me more overhead to turn on more eye candy:)


Edited by j9murphy
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10 hours ago, Qcumber said:

For any headset you need to add a minimum multiplier of 1.5 to the base resolution to get good results. I run my QP at about 3500x3500. If the crystal light can get away with less SS then it should be equivalent to other headsets in terms of performance. However, the QP has eye tracking so I use QVFR which reduces my overall pixel count by about 70%. I can run ultra and high settings at 72 fps. I would not be able to do this with a CL without using FFR. 

I´m not sure if it has to be 1.5 for every headset. I always thought it was to compensate for barrel distortion due to the fresnel lenses.
I don´t think the Crystal uses fresnel lenses so it might get away with less oversampling.

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On 4/17/2024 at 4:15 PM, Qcumber said:

8kx is 3840x2160 = 8.3Mp

Crystal is 2880x2880 = 8.3 Mp 

So they should be the same in terms of GPU demand.

G2/Pico 4 is 2160x2160 = 4.7 Mp

A crystal light will be about 70% more demanding than a G2/P4.

I can get reasonable performance from my P4 with a 4070 but need to use QVFR (fixed) to maintain 72 fps. 

What sort of settings are you using in DCS and do you use reprojection and/or QVFR? 

Edit: I have not factored in super sampling. With my P4 and QP I use an overall resolution of about 3800x3800 and DLSS scaling of 0.7. How much SS is needed for the crystal. If it needs less than 1.5 then it would be comparable for me. 

 

While it is true that 8kx and Crystal both as sam 8.3Mp.

Crystal has aspheric lense, while 8kx and G2 has fresnel lens that has distortion around the edges, we need to upscale from 1.3x-1.6x.

hence more GPU demanding.

 

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30 minutes ago, NAM said:

While it is true that 8kx and Crystal both as sam 8.3Mp.

Crystal has aspheric lense, while 8kx and G2 has fresnel lens that has distortion around the edges, we need to upscale from 1.3x-1.6x.

hence more GPU demanding.

 

I have a Pico 4 and QP which has pancake lenses. There is no edge distortion with the QP but I need to increase the resolution to about 3600x3700 for the best picture quality. As the CL has 2880x2880 then I presume it will still require SS by about 1.3 but will have no noticable screen door effect. 

5800x3drtx407064Gb 3200: 1Tb NVME: Pico 4: Rift S: Quest Pro

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They have two new choices for the Light:

$799 Local dimming, but no controllers

$899 Local dimming & Lighthouse faceplace, but no controller

 

And these are offered next to the choices they had already announced:

$699 No local dimming, with controllers

$899 Local dimming, with controllers

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1 hour ago, Aapje said:

They have two new choices for the Light:

$799 Local dimming, but no controllers

$899 Local dimming & Lighthouse faceplace, but no controller

I can't see these options on the pimax website. Can you please post the link?

5800x3drtx407064Gb 3200: 1Tb NVME: Pico 4: Rift S: Quest Pro

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Placed my order for the super bundle when it was announced.

I have an 8KX that I will use on the 12K trade-in program. I briefly had a Crystal but mine arrived damaged and took months to get a refund, I did love the 35PPD visuals so the Super at 50-57PPD will be perfect for my needs. I am betting though the 57 PPD lenses will be separate purchases or likely like the crystal 42 PPD lenses only available to those who get in the first wave of headsets as those never were sold separately and aren't still in the store much like the wide FOV lenses for the standard crystal.

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3 hours ago, Dangerzone said:

Would other controllers (such as the HP reverb's controllers) work, and be interchangeable, or do you need the controllers to match the headset?

No, they are not interchangeable except for those that use lighthouse base station for tracking. Pimax 8kx controller sword can works on Valve index..

I think Valve index controller can works on Pimax Crystal that has light house faceplate as well


Edited by NAM
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I am curious to know more about the dimming thing. does the crystal have it ? I was wondering if this will be a required to get addon? I dont have anything like that on my G2 and it looks fine?

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4 hours ago, Sorata said:

Placed my order for the super bundle when it was announced.

I have an 8KX that I will use on the 12K trade-in program. I briefly had a Crystal but mine arrived damaged and took months to get a refund, I did love the 35PPD visuals so the Super at 50-57PPD will be perfect for my needs. I am betting though the 57 PPD lenses will be separate purchases or likely like the crystal 42 PPD lenses only available to those who get in the first wave of headsets as those never were sold separately and aren't still in the store much like the wide FOV lenses for the standard crystal.

What kind of GPU would you need to drive the super? I have an RTX 7900 XTX with the crystal, and it barely cuts it...

14 minutes ago, The_Nephilim said:

I am curious to know more about the dimming thing. does the crystal have it ? I was wondering if this will be a required to get addon? I dont have anything like that on my G2 and it looks fine?

The original Crystal has local dimming,  it has to do with the display type I believe. It makes dark scenes look better. It is nice to have, but I wouldn't say it's worth the price upgrade for the Crystal light, especially since most people don't do a lot of night flying in DCS. For other games, maybe.

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13 hours ago, NAM said:

I think Valve index controller can works on Pimax Crystal that has light house faceplate as well

Also HTC controlers work fine with Pimax using lighthouse.  I bought two used ones on amazon and they work great with my 8KX.

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3 hours ago, WipeUout said:

Also HTC controlers work fine with Pimax using lighthouse.  I bought two used ones on amazon and they work great with my 8KX.

At first, I did not know that controller interchangeable for lighthouse headsets.

If I have known, i would certainly get HTC or Vive Controllers.

So I purchased Pimax sword controller, it is the worst purchased ever!.

I am not trying to sell it, feel guity loading piece of crap to someone else.

It still on my desk to remind me do some research before buying anything..

However, it still think 8kx is a good flightsim headset, just do NOT buy sword controller.


Edited by NAM
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For the Crystal Light, you may also be able to get away without controllers, if you just do simming with it. They will sell a version with local dimming, but no controllers.

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I bit the bullet and bought the Crystal to replace my broken G2. I set it up last night with Quadviews DFR straight away and ran some test flights using the same in game graphics settings I had for the G2. Running at 72Hz. The results = WOW!!!

On the free flights I usually use to benchmark my settings (Syria and Marianas) it holds 72fps everywhere except over Guam island. Even on the ground on Guam I am getting double the fps I could achieve with the G2. And, this is with the increased clarity and sweet spot the Crystal is known for. This is likely due to DFR and I suspect that the G2 was running at higher resolutions to overcome barrel distortions in its Frenel lenses.

I know that upgrading to a 4090 would be the ultimate upgrade. However, for people like who only have a mid tier GPU like a 3080, the extra money spent on the cost difference between a Light and a Crystal is less than the option of having to pay for a beefier GPU to run a Light that does not come with DFR. I am not sure if there is anyone else out there that is in my situation (DCS VR junky that needs to replace their G2 but only has a 3080 or similar GPU) that is contemplating what to do, but I would be happy to help share the details of my experience, which includes trialing a Quest 3 as a another alternative to the Crystal and Crystal Light. Anyway I have some more experimenting to do with my settings...

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PC Hardware: i9-12900k, RTX 3080 10GB, 32GB DDR5 4400MHz, NVME.2 Drives, Alienware 38" 3840x1600 144MHz Monitor, TrackIR Pro Clip, Pimax Crystal

Flight Controls: Winwing Orion 1 FA-18 Stick and Throttle HOTAS / Logitech Rudder Pedals

DCS Modules: Too many to list after the 15 year sale

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Well, I'm at a point where I may have to review my statement about bypassing the light due to no DFR. 😟

I need an external perspective please:

My HP Reverb is showing signs that the infamous cable might be on it's way out and I'm not sure how long I can hold out. I'd appreciate some suggestions/thoughts as to my situation and options incase I'm not seeing things clearly:

DFR was mandatory for me, but I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place and may have to compromise. It seems having VR is more mandatory than having DFR. 

The Pimax Crystal and Varjo Aero seem to be the main 2 options available to me. The problem is that I feel like I'd be paying premium price for the Crystal which would be a compromise to me as well. (I have concerns about being battery based, both with interruption to flights, as well as it being the weak point for longevity of the headset life itself. (I have long VR sessions, and being battery bound seems like a real compromise -especially with a premium+ priced headset).

Add to this that the Crystal Super has this problem solved, and is coming in around 6 months at the same (or similar) price, it seems that waiting is the best option, but that won't be up to me as much as it will be up to my headset holding out. 

Alternatively, the Varjo Aero looked like it would be the ideal go-to for now should my Reverb die in the mean time, but it looks like I've missed the boat with Varjo. They appear to be all sold out, and there's no suitable replacement in the works. (The XR-4 is way above anything I'm willing to spend on VR). 

So... if I have to compromise, it makes sense to compromise with the cheaper option, and just go with the Pimax Crystal Light as a life boat, so this headset's release might have been the perfect timing for me. I know though, once I buy this, I won't spend more on the Super, so that will be it. 

I'm not keen on buying anything second hand (I find it hard to trust the 2nd hand market and know that I'm not going to get a headset with issues). Is there something obvious I'm missing as other alternative options?

On a separate note - I find it interesting that their are options for:

* No local Diming with Controllers

* Local Dimming without Controllers

* Local Dimming with Controllers

... but they don't have "No local diming without controllers". I wonder what that's about?

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Varjo pulled out of the consumer market, so no replacement is coming.

And I would put the Quest 3 on your list as well. You can also consider temporarily getting a headset while waiting for the Crystal Super, and reselling it if you get that one (and are happy with it). The money you lose with the reselling probably isn't a bad deal for you if you consider it a rental fee and a price to pay to learn whether you'd be happy with the more expensive stuff.

Quote

I'm not keen on buying anything second hand (I find it hard to trust the 2nd hand market and know that I'm not going to get a headset with issues).

You're not guaranteed getting a headset without issues if you buy directly from a company either, especially Pimax with their infamous hardware quality control and software issues for any new headset.

Ultimately, there is no perfect option. Any choice you make will involve compromises.

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