Nose down when braking

[SMH]

11 minutes ago, Qcumber said:

I've not looked at the plane from outside. It doesn't feel like it's bouncing around from the cockpit. I'll have a look from the external camera. 

Do you play VR or 2d? 

Doesn't matter, the physics are the same. And it's never "2D". (You mean "stereoscopic".) 

I finally found some photos of the interior of the Mosquito's struts. Here's the "shock absorbers/springs", nothing but rubber blocks! They stack inside those tubes and the collapsible strut runs through the center of them. No pneumatic shocks, no springs, just rubber! (The P-47 and P-51 have shocks and springs like a car, I believe. But still quite stiff.)



I suppose some of it could be tire pressure too. That's where the Mosquito gets most of its shock absorption from, those obviously stiff struts (which I think are currently reasonably modeled in the Mosquito) only noticeably compress during the shock of landing impact. The Mustang's tires are a lot smaller though so won't contribute to "squish" nearly as much. It's definitely the Mustang's struts. You can see them compressing under braking loads in the external view. (I realize the visual animation may not always reflect what's happening in the FM, but I assume it's informed by it in this case.)

Edited April 24, 2024 by SMH

[Holbeach]

Mosquito has 11 of these blocks, plus a half block, separated by spacers, plus a rebound block, in a stack inside the tube.There is no air or oil involved.

They produce 8 inches of travel. 2 inches of tube showing under compression and 6 inches above inside strut, when static at 20000 lb..

They have friction dampers. Pneumatic Drum brakes.

The Mustang has air over hydraulic dampers. They are pumped up with a compressor through  a tyre type valve to give 3.5 inches static oleo clearence. (2 inch in later H model). Hydraulic Multiplate (19) disc brakes.

P-47 Aerol strut similar to P-51. Hydraulic Drum brakes.

The Spitfire has air with friction dampers. Pneumatic Drum brakes.

No coil springs involved in any of them.

..

Edited April 27, 2024 by Holbeach
Added detail. Removed oleo png.

[Qcumber]

3 minutes ago, SMH said:

Doesn't matter, the physics are the same. And it's never "2D

OK. Just using common dcs forum terminology. The reason I ask is regarding perception in the cockpit rather than the physics of the landing gear. I play VR so wondered if it is less noticeable compared to monitor.

11 minutes ago, SMH said:

I've been trying to find a photo of the interior of the Mosquito's struts. Haven't found the full assembly yet but here's the "shock absorbers/springs", nothing but rubber blocks! They stack inside those tubes and the collapsible strut runs through the center of them.

This might be a useful site for more information regarding the mosquito. 

https://www.peoplesmosquito.org.uk/

 

[grafspee]

I made a closer look at this topic, and i can say for sure that struts are ok, but front tires are squishy as hell. Those are responsible for this nose down and left/right swing drop.

Edited April 25, 2024 by grafspee

[Slippa]

17 hours ago, grafspee said:

I literally jumped in P-51 on online server, i've lost my settings so i had to assignee axis and buttons again no adjusting curves or anything and i felt nothing drastic at all about P-51.  

I don't know maybe you should erase your settings and assign once again. 

 

 

Have you tried your brakes?

Whatever I seem to do by adjusting settings my brakes come on suddenly. All I can change is when they come on suddenly. I can fly it with the wobble but using brakes isn’t sensible as they are.

I’m a bit weary of trying to fix it. Like SMH says, I don’t think there is a fix with axis tunings etc, unless there’s an update from the people that did this to it and they’re pushing it through regardless it seems. Weird how it seems ok ish for others but there it is.

[Terry Dactil]

The way I see it is that you can't fix it  with the axis tune settings.

Because the control has to be inverted, all that happens with the saturation adjustments is that you change the minimum brake setting, and it is the maximum setting that needs to be reduced. 

[Qcumber]

2 hours ago, Slippa said:

Have you tried your brakes?

They are a bit more sensitive. A 25% curve worked ok for me. Thrustmaster T-flight. 

[Theodore42]

I read the reason ED modeled the Mosquito's undercarriage physics first is because the Mosquito's gear is really stiff. So now that ED is expanding to more difficult gears to model, there does seem to be a lot of janky-ness with the Mustang's wheel physics now. New features are always like this and they always get polish eventually.

As for the issue of stopping, I'm really not feeling it. The tail wheel seems much more prone to lift up and break when it thwacks the ground. But I chalk that up to the new janky wheel physics being too mushy. As far as coming to a complete stop, I'm not feeling inhibited in any way.

It does sound like too much messing with the brake axis. Try doing the opposite of what you're attempting to do, just to make sure you understand what's going on. If you get unexpected results they will probably point you in the right direction.

[Slippa]

11 hours ago, Qcumber said:

They are a bit more sensitive. A 25% curve worked ok for me. Thrustmaster T-flight. 

I’m using the same MFG Crosswinds I’ve had since dot. More testing earlier because even though it’s knackered, well, I still wanna fly. 

I’ve tried all the same settings everyone’s posted here now. Everything but messing with the lua which to be honest, I’d rather leave that one for now.

For the past couple of years of flying it I’ve barely ever pushed the stick forward to unlock the tailwheel. I’ve been trying that a bit lately but it’s like turning on a waltzer, good for a laugh but I’m gonna get dizzy.

I’m having to leave the brakes now and try not to use em.

On 4/24/2024 at 9:09 AM, Holbeach said:

Couldn't do anything about the music though. 

One for the Pony to dance to 

[kablamoman]

15 hours ago, Slippa said:

Whatever I seem to do by adjusting settings my brakes come on suddenly. All I can change is when they come on suddenly. I can fly it with the wobble but using brakes isn’t sensible as they are.

Something doesn't sound right. Any chance you can post a video or a track with your controls indicator turned on so we can see what you're experiencing?

While I definitely think the struts are much squishier than they used to be, and maybe even a bit too squishy, I'm not having any trouble feathering the brakes. So, your statements are a bit confusing.

[Slippa]

13 minutes ago, kablamoman said:

Something doesn't sound right. Any chance you can post a video or a track with your controls indicator turned on so we can see what you're experiencing?

While I definitely think the struts are much squishier than they used to be, and maybe even a bit too squishy, I'm not having any trouble feathering the brakes. So, your statements are a bit confusing.

I’m getting confused by it too, believe me . As embarrassing as it would be, I’d love it to be something simple that I’d cocked up, it wouldn’t be the first time. Something’s odd with it. Happy to read not everyone’s having as much grief with it as I am anyhow.

I’m not in my spot atm but I’ll save a track once I’ve had a go. Not sure how I’d save a video of gameplay on it as I’ve never done it. Probably some free and easy software I’d install but yeah, I’ll do one with the indicator up next time on a track, cheers.

[kablamoman]

4 hours ago, Slippa said:

I’m getting confused by it too, believe me . As embarrassing as it would be, I’d love it to be something simple that I’d cocked up, it wouldn’t be the first time. Something’s odd with it. Happy to read not everyone’s having as much grief with it as I am anyhow.

I’m not in my spot atm but I’ll save a track once I’ve had a go. Not sure how I’d save a video of gameplay on it as I’ve never done it. Probably some free and easy software I’d install but yeah, I’ll do one with the indicator up next time on a track, cheers.

Hey buddy don't worry about it! I actually think there might be something going on with the brakes after all. I usually feather them pretty lightly with all my landings, but I just spent a while testing, and trying some pretty sporty braking, and then switching over to the 47. I noticed I can get the same wishy-washy suspension feel on the 47 by adding a negative curve to the brake axes. So it's as if there might be some strange curve applied to the mustang accidentally even if you're set to neutral.

As a work around for now try applying 30 curve to the toe axes on the mustang. It does a lot to get rid of the mushy suspension feel.

[JD Swann]

On 4/19/2024 at 5:24 AM, Slippa said:

I tried changing the axis tuning last night, moving it in units of ten both plus and minus. I can’t make it any better.

I’m using MFGs too and even the slightest touch of brake behaves like I’m slamming the pedal down in the Pony. It reacts with an odd bounce that’s exaggerated and unrealistic. I wasn’t in the best of moods when I posted yesterday and when I tried flying it last night I thought maybe I’d been a bit harsh but it really isn’t great. 

It’s usable avoiding brake use which is a bit of a joke when trying to land and roll out. Pretty gutted with the way things are going with our props lately. 

It may not be related but I had a problem with my Crosswinds in the past. The toe brakes wouldn't react at all until about 50% depression of the pedals and then came on suddenly. I had to kind of "jab" at them so the brakes would lock up when taxiing. I fixed it by recalibrating in the MFG software (or maybe in the windows game controller settings, I'm don't remember clearly.) If you can see that your toe brakes aren't coming on smoothly this might be something to try.

Good luck.

[Slippa]

Surprised to read about problems with the crosswinds. That's a first for me, touch wood, mine are solid. Trust you're all sorted now.

Before the update I think I was using either a 15 or 25% curve so I've gone back to 25 and I can make more sense of it. Looking at the controls indicator, my brakes are fine. As in, they're not jamming full on which is a bit how it feels. I can't turn well as it is. Maybe I should start trying to nudge the stick forward with the turn but my efforts with that so far aren't great. Funny though. 

With a bit of patience I can sort of manage. I'm sure my hardware's ok, it might be the suspensions reaction to braking that's making the nose jolt and want to strike the prop? It may be both? I think something's a bit overdone. I don't mind it in the Jug and I can get around on the ground pretty much as well, or as badly, as I could before the update in that.

Some 'sort of' testing with the controls indicator on. Normandy on the Solent:

 

Pony Rides N2dodgy.trk Pony Rides N2landbounce.trk

[SMH]

1 hour ago, Slippa said:

Maybe I should start trying to nudge the stick forward with the turn but my efforts with that so far aren't great. Funny though. 

You absolutely should have the stick forward of center if you're using differential braking to turn the Mustang. With the stick back in the Mustang the tailwheel becomes locked to the rudder, so differential braking will just skid the tail around (I'm not sure if this is very well modeled anymore, it feels a bit reluctant to turn either way now and we hear a skid sound when diff braking with the stick forward - I'd be curious to know which wheel it's conceptually coming from as I wouldn't think you should hear skids unless you were taxiing at dangerously high speeds. Might be a clue as to what's currently wrong with the model.)

Stick back, turn with rudder. Stick forward, turn with brakes. If you need to make a sharp turn you'll want stick forward/brakes. 
 

On 4/26/2024 at 11:00 AM, JD Swann said:

It may not be related but I had a problem with my Crosswinds in the past. The toe brakes wouldn't react at all until about 50% depression of the pedals and then came on suddenly. I had to kind of "jab" at them so the brakes would lock up when taxiing. I fixed it by recalibrating in the MFG software (or maybe in the windows game controller settings, I'm don't remember clearly.) If you can see that your toe brakes aren't coming on smoothly this might be something to try.

Good luck.

Calibration is a normal thing to have to do for most controllers. Not really a "fix", just a regular maintenance thing.

[Holbeach]

 

P-51 at Eastchurch and my first landing at Biggin Hill with Mosquito. This was the moment I realized what was so right about the Mustang and so wrong about the Mossie. (Looking at legs actually)..

 

 

 

 

..

[Slippa]

2 hours ago, SMH said:

Stick back, turn with rudder. Stick forward, turn with brakes. If you need to make a sharp turn you'll want stick forward/brakes. 

This is what I thought. Good way of putting it. Of course, putting theory into practice is a different story. More practice . Doing the stick forward bit I’ve been spinning out and chuckling away but it’s what I’ll be trying more of in tight spots. I’ve always tried to turn with the prop and rudder with just a flick of the brakes to adjust. That flick of the brakes I’ll try doing dead-stick, see if it stops the nose bobbing down so much. In a tight spot trying to taxi I’ll try to make more use of the tailwheel. 

I reckon the skidding sound is from the tailwheel somehow.

Holbeach, you get my nomination for flying instructor. Tidy landings. I get nowhere near that with the Mossie and it isn’t because of peripherals . I can see that tailwheel on the Mossie doing it’s crazy thing too.

Maybe they mixed up the two and put the suspension for the Mossie on the Pony and vice-versa? Wonder what they’d be like then?

[Holbeach]

28 minutes ago, Slippa said:

T

 

Holbeach, you get my nomination for flying instructor. Tidy landings. I get nowhere near that with the Mossie and it isn’t because of peripherals . I can see that tailwheel on the Mossie doing it’s crazy thing too.

Maybe they mixed up the two and put the suspension for the Mossie on the Pony and vice-versa? Wonder what they’d be like then?

I'll be doing a bug report soon on the Mossie main gear as it spoils an otherwise great plane.

The tailwheel jig is already reported.

..

[SMH]

Yeah, the Mustang used to be easy to brake turn but now is really hard. Messing with curves may actually help that a bit, but it shouldn't be our job to second guess ED's modeling. (They have said it's WIP so hopefully they'll tweak it some more.)

Note that that stick forward/back thing is only for the Mustang. And, weirdly, the I-16 has it too! The FW-190s also do it except the tailwheel is locked to center with the stick back, it doesn't track the rudder like in the Mustang and I-16. The P-47 and Bf-109 have a manual tail wheel lock lever. And the Mossie and Spitfire don't have locking tailwheels at all, making the first part of your takeoff roll terrifyingly touchy.

Also note that locked tailwheels will be (or at least should be) more effective when the stick is held back as that increases down force on the tailplane. (Obviously some propwash or forward speed is needed as well, to blow on the elevator.)

4 minutes ago, Holbeach said:

I'll be doing a bug report soon on the Mossie main gear as it spoils an otherwise great plane.

The tailwheel jig is already reported.

..

What do you think is wrong with the Mossie main gear? They seem pretty reasonable to me.

The tailwheel definitely gets broken and stuck down too easily though.

Edited April 27, 2024 by SMH

[SMH]

Here's videos of the three tracks I already posted, above, focusing on the gear. The Mustang's suspension is incredibly soft, with one side completely collapsing and the other completely extending just from doing a tight turn. It even bounces on the shocks just from engine vibration when idle! (As does the Mosquito, though its suspension feels overall stiffer.)

If real aircraft do this it should be pretty easy to get video of it. But I've never seen it.

I also don't see any obvious tire deformation (or sinking into the ground to simulate the same) on the Mustang or Mosquito but I think I see it on the P-47.

 

 

 

Edited April 28, 2024 by SMH

[Holbeach]

12 hours ago, SMH said:

 

What do you think is wrong with the Mossie main gear? They seem pretty reasonable to me.

The tailwheel definitely gets broken and stuck down too easily though.

 

Excellent videos on the main gears.

They show exactly what's good about the P-51 and bad about the Mosquito and why it collapses the struts so easily on landing.

I'll do a bug report later on the Mossie.

The real manual says if the Mustang gear is too bouncy, then it's lacking damper oil. Ours is simply lacking in damping and needs sorting.

But, it has correct shock absorber travel and only bounces due to lack of damping after a hard landing.

The Mossie on the other hand has almost no travel and should have a least 6 inches after landing, leaving only 2 inches tube showing.

..

 

Edited April 28, 2024 by Holbeach

[Slippa]

5 hours ago, SMH said:

It even bounces on the shocks just from engine vibration when idle!

You can almost bunny hop the P51 while stationary just by throttling up and down rapidly in succession. I do it in the first track I posted.

Also, I have seen the tyres sunken into the tarmac from the P51 and the Mossie.

Decent videos for analysis, they can’t say we’re not bothered about it.

Be interesting to see what Holbeach makes of the Mossie too.

[Holbeach]

3 hours ago, Slippa said:

Be interesting to see what Holbeach makes of the Mossie too.

I spent all Sunday morning forming a bug report with a detailed explaination and none of the text showed up, just a load of pictures.

What a FWOT that was.

A howling 7 deg Norwester with stair rods outside, I might as well start again, in stages this time.

..

Edited April 28, 2024 by Holbeach

[SMH]

6 hours ago, Slippa said:

You can almost bunny hop the P51 while stationary just by throttling up and down rapidly in succession. I do it in the first track I posted.

Also, I have seen the tyres sunken into the tarmac from the P51 and the Mossie.

Decent videos for analysis, they can’t say we’re not bothered about it.

Be interesting to see what Holbeach makes of the Mossie too.

I mean in my own plane, not the horrible rubber banding we get in multiplayer that makes entire planes sink into runways. Just in case that's what you're referring to. You can see what I mean in the videos I posted. As far as I can see I don't see any tire sinking (though, again, I think that would be a fair way to visually model tire deformation - though the slicker way would be to deform the mesh). I *do* think I might be seeing some tire deformation on the P-47 though, but it's quite subtle (I didn't really give it a hard landing or drive over any bumps or anything like that - I should try that). 

Edited April 28, 2024 by SMH

[Art-J]

21 hours ago, Slippa said:

Doing the stick forward bit I’ve been spinning out and chuckling away but it’s what I’ll be trying more of in tight spots. I’ve always tried to turn with the prop and rudder with just a flick of the brakes to adjust.

Sounds like Il-2GB habit / muscel memory to me . Do your try DCS warbirds after having more previous experience with GB ones? If so, taxiing technique here has always been exactly opposite to GB one. "Their" warbirds have super strong propwash & rudder effect mixed with super weak brakes that need to be stomped on to squeeze anything out of them. "Our" warbirds on the other hand have pretty much non-existent propwash & rudder effect below takeoff speeds (so don't even bother to use them to taxi) but have always had very strong brakes which require smooth and reduced input to avoid nose-overs. Frankly, I don't think that changed at all in 2.9.4, but almost all my flying in DCS is about warbirds, so maybe I'm just more used to them.

@SMH Thanks for the detailed videos, although to be honest, the one with Mustang clearly shows tyre sinking to me. Granted, no proper deformation animation, but it's better than nothing I guess.... Also, In my opinion that skid sound comes from one of the mains locking up. I've yet to experience strictly tailwheel skidding in 2.9.4 if it got unlocked properly.

I'm surprised to see correct wheel stopping and correct one rotating in tight turns in your vid. Have you used TF-51 there? So it's the payware one that has animations reversed I reckon? Hopefully they'll got it sorted in both variants, together with damping issues.

Edited April 28, 2024 by Art-J