How to win at BFM in the Mighty F-4E Phantom

[Victory205]

You are the first one back to the White Board, share how to win here.

[Phantom12]

Didnt get enough chance to test my theories yet but from reading the charts it seems like vs the MiG-21 things are very even at higher speeds (500 KIAS or so). MiG has much better ITR and to some extent STR the slower you get. My basic starting gameplan would be to use sustained horizontal turns and let the aggressive MiG pilot use his wonderful high AoA capability to bleed all his energy, then go up and come back down and kill him. Patient MiG drivers might need to be threatened with the nose briefly before they get slow, but most people in DCS arent patient. I don't think angles tactics are a good choice unless you have a very passive opponent.

MiG-19s are probably the tougher enemy in a close fight, at least from a purely performance standpoint. Better to shoot him in the face with a Sparrow or all aspect heater if available, since they only get RQ missiles. Otherwise hope the other guy is a bad stick, bring a wingman, or go home and try again another day.

Ill edit this or make another post after Ive flown more against AI or other players. Inital impressions are though that staying fast will be key. F-4 seems to handle very nicely. She zooms very nicely and getting the nose back down over the top seems to be very easy. Using rudder to roll at high AoA works great, even better than the Tomcat IMO.

[Kalasnkova74]

1 hour ago, Victory205 said:

You are the first one back to the White Board, share how to win here.

Shoot the bandit in the face with a Sparrow, and use the time saved to beat your wingmen to the squadron bar .

[Tomcatter87]

Man, I find the Phantom quite easy to fly - but probably the hardest plane to fight with. I was having a hard time against AI MiG 21 and 19 yesterday - yes, use the vertical, but those AI planes hardly bleed any energy. I dropped all tanks, tried to keep my AOA to the value thats marked in the gauge (is it 19.2?), still those MiGs flew circles around me, I couldn't even extend away, because those 21s are really fast, too. Any hints would be much appreciated.

[Phantom12]

Riding the donut/solid tone is much more than a sustained turn at 4-500 kts. Its more like 10-12 units.

[irisono]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Tomcatter87:

Man, I find the Phantom quite easy to fly - but probably the hardest plane to fight with. I was having a hard time against AI MiG 21 and 19 yesterday - yes, use the vertical, but those AI planes hardly bleed any energy. I dropped all tanks, tried to keep my AOA to the value thats marked in the gauge (is it 19.2?), still those MiGs flew circles around me, I couldn't even extend away, because those 21s are really fast, too. Any hints would be much appreciated.

There is no advice for combating UFO planes with the F-4E. The AI flight models of some DCS modules are unsophisticated and completely unrealistic. Measured by their real technical parameters (power- and wing loading, G limits, etc.), these DCS modules can rise into the sky like rockets, and they hardly lose any energy during high G-maneuvers. They can fly abrupt turns without being damaged. In reality they would lose their wings. The UFO behavior of modules such as the Mig-21Bis, Mig-19, F-5E must be corrected as soon as possible. The best solution to address this problem is the early introduction of the General Flight Model Program (GFM) announced by DCS. This announcement was made a long time ago. Little has happened so far apart from a few corrections in the WWII section. This problem remains unsolved for all other modules.

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/news/newsletters/a134f231fe8269e1c78dd6d0dd8c3c9d/

[Qcumber]

How does the F-4 compare to gun fighting in an F-5 vs Mig-21 and Mig-19? The F-5 is of the same era but much smaller and lighter and relatively weak engines. 

[=475FG= Dawger]

I found the AI just as easy to kill today in the Phantom as they were yesterday in the Fishbed. 
 

Multiple types and skill settings. Gunned a veteran Mig-29.

Defeated multiple pairs of Mig-21’s

Its not the airplane. 
 

[=475FG= Dawger]

36 minutes ago, Qcumber said:

How does the F-4 compare to gun fighting in an F-5 vs Mig-21 and Mig-19? The F-5 is of the same era but much smaller and lighter and relatively weak engines. 

Depends on what you mean by gun fighting. The Phantom is exceptionally stable as a gun platform and the gun saws planes in half. 
 

Getting slow and trying to knife fight is fraught with peril. You will find yourself in a massive sink rate that can only be cured by wings level and stick forward with the burners blasting. Not good for your BFM gameplan. 

[Tomcatter87]

1 hour ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

I found the AI just as easy to kill today in the Phantom as they were yesterday in the Fishbed. 
 

Multiple types and skill settings. Gunned a veteran Mig-29.

Defeated multiple pairs of Mig-21’s

Its not the airplane. 
 

Would you care to share your wisdom with us? 

[=475FG= Dawger]

1 hour ago, Tomcatter87 said:

Would you care to share your wisdom with us? 

This thread covers my opinion on the subject sufficiently. 

 

[irisono]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb =475FG= Dawger:

This thread covers my opinion on the subject sufficiently. 

 

I'm sorry, but I didn't find any wisdom in this thread, other than some uninteresting video clips with labels on and general phrases like...You should constantly predict where your enemy will be in the future and maneuver your plane accordingly… Without taking into account that the opponent is using unrealistic flight dynamics and is uncatchable.

[Victory205]

15 hours ago, Phantom12 said:

Didnt get enough chance to test my theories yet but from reading the charts it seems like vs the MiG-21 things are very even at higher speeds (500 KIAS or so). MiG has much better ITR and to some extent STR the slower you get. My basic starting gameplan would be to use sustained horizontal turns and let the aggressive MiG pilot use his wonderful high AoA capability to bleed all his energy, then go up and come back down and kill him. Patient MiG drivers might need to be threatened with the nose briefly before they get slow, but most people in DCS arent patient. I don't think angles tactics are a good choice unless you have a very passive opponent.

MiG-19s are probably the tougher enemy in a close fight, at least from a purely performance standpoint. Better to shoot him in the face with a Sparrow or all aspect heater if available, since they only get RQ missiles. Otherwise hope the other guy is a bad stick, bring a wingman, or go home and try again another day.

Ill edit this or make another post after Ive flown more against AI or other players. Inital impressions are though that staying fast will be key. F-4 seems to handle very nicely. She zooms very nicely and getting the nose back down over the top seems to be very easy. Using rudder to roll at high AoA works great, even better than the Tomcat IMO.

You are on the right track. 

[=475FG= Dawger]

1 hour ago, irisono said:

I'm sorry, but I didn't find any wisdom in this thread, other than some uninteresting video clips with labels on and general phrases like...You should constantly predict where your enemy will be in the future and maneuver your plane accordingly… Without taking into account that the opponent is using unrealistic flight dynamics and is uncatchable.

You cannot help those who will not help themselves. 

[FZG_Immel]

23 hours ago, Victory205 said:

You are the first one back to the White Board, share how to win here.

vs migs ? using the vertical like a mofo.... 

 

after the merge I often go on the vertical with maybe a 30° bank angle... I stay way above them until they run out of energy and then dive back on them. Its a dangerous game if they still have fox 2s, and you have to watch what they do carefully. 

 

tonight on Enigma I had a 3 vs 1 kill ratio... (mostly because I got killed by someone I didnt seem coming though)

 

in a F-5 my KR is more like 8 vs 1. the F-5 is much easier in such furballs. (easier to maintain SA, and if engaged, its easier to shake them off in scissors)

Edited May 23, 2024 by FZG_Immel

[vadupleix]

21 hours ago, Tomcatter87 said:

Man, I find the Phantom quite easy to fly - but probably the hardest plane to fight with. I was having a hard time against AI MiG 21 and 19 yesterday - yes, use the vertical, but those AI planes hardly bleed any energy. I dropped all tanks, tried to keep my AOA to the value thats marked in the gauge (is it 19.2?), still those MiGs flew circles around me, I couldn't even extend away, because those 21s are really fast, too. Any hints would be much appreciated.

In a sustained horizontal turn/loop, there's not much chance that AI will make any mistake. In this case you'd be fighting a plane with vastly superior performance than you (AI MIG21 has similar turn performance as a F15C, so you are fighting something that's one generation ahead of you). 

You win only if AI make mistakes, and AI do make many mistakes and mess up with geometry if you give it the chance.

[skywalker22]

On 5/23/2024 at 11:03 AM, irisono said:

There is no advice for combating UFO planes with the F-4E. The AI flight models of some DCS modules are unsophisticated and completely unrealistic. Measured by their real technical parameters (power- and wing loading, G limits, etc.), these DCS modules can rise into the sky like rockets, and they hardly lose any energy during high G-maneuvers. They can fly abrupt turns without being damaged. In reality they would lose their wings. The UFO behavior of modules such as the Mig-21Bis, Mig-19, F-5E must be corrected as soon as possible. The best solution to address this problem is the early introduction of the General Flight Model Program (GFM) announced by DCS. This announcement was made a long time ago. Little has happened so far apart from a few corrections in the WWII section. This problem remains unsolved for all other modules.

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/news/newsletters/a134f231fe8269e1c78dd6d0dd8c3c9d/

AI planes are those who need the 2nd touch.

For me its just impossible to gun kill AI Fishbed with the Phantom. Mig-21 has such an incredible turn rate, and its speed seems not to be dropping as much, as I would expect at those rates. Its kind of incredible for the 60s plane. I wonder what the ED (concerning AI) and the developers of Mig-21 and other planes will do now when the Phantom is out, which clearly set the bar very high in practically any standard there is.

Edited May 24, 2024 by skywalker22

[SgtPappy]

I tested sustained turns with a buddy of mine yesterday at several loadouts:

Clean F-4E, 50% fuel vs clean F-5E at 50% fuel.

Clean F-4E, 50% fuel vs clean MiG-21 at 50% fuel

F-4E with 4xAIM-7E-2, 72% fuel (to match plots in TO -1) vs F-5E with 2xAIM-9J and 50% fuel (also to match -1)

F-4E with 2xAIM-7E-2 and 4xAIM-9J, 50% fuel vs F-5E with 2xAIM-9J and 50% fuel

F-4E with 2xAIM-7E-2 and 4xAIM-9J, 50% fuel vs MiG-21 with 2xR-3S and 50% fuel.

At SL, the F-4E had a better sustained turn than all of these other loadouts. The most difficult for me was the last one where the F-4 is carrying quite the payload and the MiG can keep up sometimes due to its inaccurate low speed sustained G's.

As others have predicted here, the Phantom is not as good in the instantaneous turn and suffers if either plane goes into a rolling scissors. Still, the F-4E can fly at very low speeds with more control than the hard wing must have so you could maybe get cheeky if you're real good.

[=475FG= Dawger]

9 hours ago, vadupleix said:

In a sustained horizontal turn/loop, there's not much chance that AI will make any mistake. In this case you'd be fighting a plane with vastly superior performance than you (AI MIG21 has similar turn performance as a F15C, so you are fighting something that's one generation ahead of you). 

You win only if AI make mistakes, and AI do make many mistakes and mess up with geometry if you give it the chance.

I hear the claim that AI has different physics but I don’t see that. What they do have is perfect SA and the ability to fly very precisely. 
 

The AI is completely reactive. They never maneuver proactively. 
 

What this means is that you must force the AI to react to what you do. If you fly in a flat circle, the AI will stay in-plane with you and max perform without error. 
 

So you have constantly give the AI something to react to. 
 

The F-4 excels when fast so a good pre-merge lead turn followed by high and low yo yo’s will generally make for an easy victory. 
 

A pre-merge radar lock will make most of them turn and flare, making your pre-merge lead turn even easier, unless he is a radar shooter too, in which case you will get a missile in the face. 
 

Once you are offensive most of the AI will try a spiral climb to keep you out of the WEZ. 

I just put the bandit in the topside of the forward canopy and pull some lead until the range is good then lag off into the WEZ ( Guns or Heaters)

Edited May 24, 2024 by =475FG= Dawger

[irisono]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb vadupleix:

In a sustained horizontal turn/loop, there's not much chance that AI will make any mistake. In this case you'd be fighting a plane with vastly superior performance than you (AI MIG21 has similar turn performance as a F15C, so you are fighting something that's one generation ahead of you). 

You win only if AI make mistakes, and AI do make many mistakes and mess up with geometry if you give it the chance.

 

vor 58 Minuten schrieb =475FG= Dawger:

I hear the claim that AI has different physics but I don’t see. What they do have is perfect SA and the ability to fly very precisely. 
 

The AI is completely reactive. They never maneuver proactively. 
 

What this means is that you must force the AI to react to what you do. If you fly in a flat circle, the AI will stay in-plane with you and max perform without error. 
 

So you have constantly give the AI something to react to. 
 

The F-4 excels when fast so a good pre-merge lead turn followed by high and low yo yo’s will generally make for an easy victory. 
 

A pre-merge radar lock will make most of them turn and flare, making your pre-merge lead turn even easier, unless he is a radar shooter too, in which case you will get a missile in the face. 
 

Once you are offensive most of the AI will try a spiral climb to keep you out of the WEZ. 

I just put the bandit in the topside of the forward canopy and pull some lead until the range is good then lag off into the WEZ ( Guns or Heaters)

The AI opponents, especially the Mig-21:

Quote … You win only if AI make mistakes, and AI do make many mistakes and mess up with geometry if you give it the chance.

or

Quote … what they do have is perfect SA and the ability to fly very precisely…

What now: The great experts in air combat fundamentally contradict each other. The fact is that the AI flight models are in such poor condition that DCS has been forced to launch an extensive GFM (General Flight Model) program to correct this problem. The self-proclaimed air combat experts should finally realize this. As long as you fire Fox-3 volleys or 4th Gen IR-seekers, you won't notice this mess. But when you get to a real dogfight with cannons and rear aspect IR-seekers, the broken AI flight dynamics have a catastrophic effect in the sim immersion.

[Phantom12]

The AI most certainly cheats. Although it is often well hidden and some airplanes are worse than others. The FC3 planes are apparently the best, I can say that the F-15 AI feels about right and the F-14 seems ok as well. The MiGs are at the worse end of things. Usually they dont exceed absolute limits when it comes to STR or ITR, they just gain energy a bit faster and lose it a bit slower than they should in the parts of the envelope where the player would be accellerating/decellerating also. The MiG-21 is particularly egregious however, the Ace AI can overperform by at least 2 deg/s STR. On top of that as has been mentioned they have superhuman controllability at low speeds and freakish awareness of where you are and everything you do. Of course you can still trick the AI into doing something bizarre and giving up advantage but its not good practice and doesnt help you learn much of anything. Half the time they just give up and fly away at some point too. 

 

Anyway were getting off topic though....

 

Havent done as much dogfighting as id like to yet as im still fiddling with settings and bindings. But ill add to my comments above that if its true that the F-4 has a slight STR or Ps advantage in some conditions that would permit cautios use of slightly more aggressive angles tactics against the -21. A patient opponent can then be forced to bleed energy to counter, at which point the F-4 should switch to energy tactics again. Otherwise if he doesnt start spending energy you should end up with a position advantage relatively soon. Of course the F-4 should still refrain from getting slow, and not try to force things to happen too quickly by spending all its energy at once. From my aerobatics so far I think one would want to retain at least 350 knots or more in order to get the nose up vertically if you need to. Even at that speed it can get squirrely if you mishandle it over the top or on the way up. The recommended 450-500 for loops is much better if you want to fly it over the top of the loop rather than doing a rudder reversal or tail slide.

 

I kind of suspected that might end up being the case since the charts I had seen were for a real F-4 at 5000ft and the DCS MiG-21 at 0ft. I think much will depend on how much fuel and weapons the F-4 is carrying at the merge. Obviously 12k lbs of gas and 2000lbs of sparrows make a big difference between a fully loaded F-4 and an empty one. The MiG-21 only carries about 5000 lbs of fuel internally.

 

ContactLight has just posted an EM diagram for the DCS F-4E in more comparable conditions than the RL charts I saw before release. At a glance things seem good for the F-4. Keep in mind this is for a clean F-4 with 50% fuel vs a clean MiG-21 with what seems to be about 80% fuel:

The F-4 has an equal or better STR to the MiG above 300 kts. Above 350 its a definite advantage and between 4-500 kts it gets up to almost 2.5 deg/s.

The MiG has equal or superior ITR at all speeds up to corner speed of about 380 kts in the F-4. The slower you get the more advantage the MiG has in this case. Above Vc the F-4 might have a very slight edge, but this only counts if you believe MiG-21 pilots in DCS arent willing to over-g the airplane at high speeds...

The F-4 has a thrust/Ps advantage over the MiG-21. Especially the case at high speed medium G turns. There is even some advantage over the MiG-19 in this area.

 

I highly encourage anyone who is interested to go check out contact lights charts for themselves on the DCS dogfighters discord. They are well presented and made directly from the DCS flight models, which takes alot of the guesswork out of working with the IRL charts.

[westr]

On 5/23/2024 at 7:58 AM, Tomcatter87 said:

Man, I find the Phantom quite easy to fly - but probably the hardest plane to fight with. I was having a hard time against AI MiG 21 and 19 yesterday - yes, use the vertical, but those AI planes hardly bleed any energy. I dropped all tanks, tried to keep my AOA to the value thats marked in the gauge (is it 19.2?), still those MiGs flew circles around me, I couldn't even extend away, because those 21s are really fast, too. Any hints would be much appreciated.

Yes the AI mig 21 is good in the vertical as well

[Tophatter14]

On 5/23/2024 at 12:14 PM, =475FG= Dawger said:

You cannot help those who will not help themselves. 

Every squadron has a guy who doesn’t get a call sign.  
Congrats, it’s you.  

[Tophatter14]

On 5/23/2024 at 1:58 AM, Tomcatter87 said:

Man, I find the Phantom quite easy to fly - but probably the hardest plane to fight with. I was having a hard time against AI MiG 21 and 19 yesterday - yes, use the vertical, but those AI planes hardly bleed any energy. I dropped all tanks, tried to keep my AOA to the value thats marked in the gauge (is it 19.2?), still those MiGs flew circles around me, I couldn't even extend away, because those 21s are really fast, too. Any hints would be much appreciated.

Bottom line upfront. Don’t go pure Vertical, but use 45°.

Edited May 24, 2024 by Tophatter14

[Elf1606688794]

3 hours ago, Phantom12 said:

The F-4 has a thrust/Ps advantage over the MiG-21.

I'm not sure what that is? I know what thrust is, but what about the rest?

3 hours ago, Phantom12 said:

I highly encourage anyone who is interested to go check out contact lights charts for themselves on the DCS dogfighters discord.

It's my understanding that you can't search for various Discords in order to find them, instead you need a link. Could you provide one please?