How to win at BFM in the Mighty F-4E Phantom

[lxsapper]

1 hour ago, Elf1606688794 said:

Sort of. I can't tell where the bandit is prior to you sliding in on his 6, a Tacview file would be most excellent to see what exactly you did there.

After watching the video several more times, I do see the MiG twice prior to my previous statement but lose track quickly, the first time was when you looked down into the cockpit. When you looked back up I could no longer see the bandit. (YouTube compression is likely at fault.) Still, a Tacview file would be most helpful.

Yes YT compression does make it harder to see. But I think the only time he really is "invisible" in the video is in the clouds just before the merge. After that you can always see him.

I'll try to make another one with better compression and include the Tacview file.

[lxsapper]

1 hour ago, Elf1606688794 said:

Sort of. I can't tell where the bandit is prior to you sliding in on his 6, a Tacview file would be most excellent to see what exactly you did there.

After watching the video several more times, I do see the MiG twice prior to my previous statement but lose track quickly, the first time was when you looked down into the cockpit. When you looked back up I could no longer see the bandit. (YouTube compression is likely at fault.) Still, a Tacview file would be most helpful.

I was looking through my Tacviews of tonights fights. Found the one that is from the fight in the video and another one that was pretty decent too. So I'll leave them here:

F-4E_IA_Caucasus_BFM MiG21_0.zip.acmi F-4E_IA_Caucasus_BFM MiG21_1.zip.acmi

[Cab]

43 minutes ago, mattag08 said:

Weird maybe I have them turned off.

There is a toggle switch in your profile settings that controls whether or not you see signatures 

[Snappy]

Is there a rule of thumb/technique for going vertical  (oblique or pure) on how much to pull in order to arrive on top of the vertical egg with maximum conserved energy?

In other words, should I fly a specific AOA or a specific G-load on the first half of the vertical to bleed off as little speed/energy as possible? If so , what should I am for?

I know it’s probably somewhere in the middle , as neither pulling hard works nor pulling too little, but the „middle“ is still a wide range . So if someone has the optimum target value , it would be great .

Thanks in advance!

Edited May 26, 2024 by Snappy

[Phantom12]

11 minutes ago, Snappy said:

Is there a rule of thumb/technique for going vertical  (oblique or pure) on how much to pull in order to arrive on top of the vertical egg with maximum conserved energy?

In other words, should I fly a specific AOA or a specific G-load on the first half of the vertical to bleed off as little speed/energy as possible? If so , what should I am for?

I know it’s probably somewhere in the middle , as neither pulling hard works nor pulling too little, but the „middle“ is still a wide range . So if someone has the optimum target value , it would be great .

Thanks in advance!

 

The most efficient way to zoom is to pull wingslevel till the nose is pointed straight up and then unload and fly straight upwards till you run out of speed. IIRC something like 2/3 sustained G is recommended for spirals but it depends. You might have to turn tighter to keep sight or to stop him from generating enough lead for a gunshot. It will also depend on where exactly your performance advantages over the adversary lie. Generally it should be a more relaxed turn than in the horizontal though. If you want to get a feel for things try the loops and reversal techniques victory describes in the "mastering your first flight" thread. Theres some good info on loops in here as well, and they work in game exactly as described for the real airplane.

https://www.f4phantom.com/docs/F4_Phantom_Guide.pdf

Best AoA seems to me to be very situational but managing it feels like it will be a key skill in the F-4. So far I try not to exceed the solid tone ever, unless Im very slow over the top and just trying to flop the nose back down. Coming back down and trying to saddle up I sometimes pull into the first beeper and solid tone, but only enough to prevent overshooting or spilling out below the bandit too much. Anytime you hear the tones you are really hurting your acceleration. Given how much being slow hurts it can definitely be worth it to totally relax AoA, acellerate as quickly as possible, then continue turning again, rather than trying to stay in the middle at 8-15 units and sort of kind of accelerate and not turn all that well either.

Im trying to upload a video now that, while far from perfect maybe shows a few of the techniques I think could work well in the F-4.

Other useful stuff I learned: The gunsight defaults to 1000ft range solution without a radar lock. The inner ring is 25 mils, and the outer one 50. This means that for many fighters of the time the wingspan will be more or less the size of the inner ring at 1000 ft and the length will be about the size of the outer ring when viewed from directly above.

The CAA mode will lock a bandit on the nose reliably if you can get a lookup situation (and set to heaters before so it scans the center corridor). Lookdown its not nearly as reliable. The settling time for the sight makes shooting hard maneuvering bandits at longer ranges a bit tricky, and Ive had more success just getting closer to about the 1000ft range where you can just shoot without a radar lock anyway. If you hold the Cage button on the throttle you can remove the lead calculating part of things too if you need a fixed pipper for a snapshot.

[=475FG= Dawger]

14 hours ago, Elf1606688794 said:

@=475FG= Dawger what I mean by showing us isn't just a 30 second YouTube clip of a maneuver, talk us through it, use Tacview analysis etc. 

I don't know your skill level in editing videos but mine is probably worse heh. That said, I use Shotcut (because it's free) and can link you some tutorials for that app if need be, just let me know.

I know this isn't anything close to what you asked for (No Phantom, Human opponent, etc) but the basic lesson is very applicable to the Phantom, using the vertical to defeat a bandit with superior turning ability.

The video was aimed at a group mate who was struggling with supporting his wingman with an effective fight entry so its pretty specific circumstance but the maneuver (high yo yo) is a basic and very common maneuver.

 

[Phantom12]

Ok here goes: This is by no means perfect and its vs AI so take it for what its worth. Some parts I think are decent demonstrations of what sort of things one might try in the F-4 to get an advantage against a tigher turning or very aggressive oponnent. Obviously some parts of it will not work against enemies with All aspect missiles or in a not 1v1 scenario. Feel free to critique or point out errors as you all see them.

The first turn is a decent example of a spiral climb. Bleeding off speed in the first part of that turn was probably a mistake but it worked out in the end. I can quickly tell hes bled alot of speed so I start climbing until he cant keep up, then go steeper nose up and reverse with the rudder. The AI tries to shoot its RQ missiles at me but its high angle off and they probably wouldnt make the turn unless he had fired them with alot more lead. Coming down like I said I was managing AoA to try and get into an offensive position while also getting at least some amount of speed back as well.

The snapshot at 2:30 or so showed bullets pass between the wingtip and fuselage... Close but no cigar. Flat scissors are clearly the MiGs playground and the F-4 can only stay there so long so its time to do something else. Getting out was the right call but the climb afterwards is a good example of what not to do as an energy fighter. Impatiently it was started too early and without enough energy margin. A player or less stupid AI probably would have shot me at the top at 3:20. Failing to make the kill as the energy fighter can be quite dangerous.

The better move is IMO what I did after that at about 3:30. Dive towards the bandits extended 6 oclock and pick up speed. Then start a sustained turn back for a neutral merge. Since the F-4 accellerates better than the MiG you might even come back with an advantage if you time the turn back right. I stay horizontal in a sustained turn again here, and the MiG goes nose to nose. Since he gained a huge amount of angles in that one turn he must either be slower than me or turning very hard and getting very slow by the time weve come around.

Now its time to defend the snapshot and start going vertical again. Given he had no more missiles I might have tried a pure vertical zoom here as well. After this zoom I end up with what is probably a pretty good RQ missile shot position. In this case Im trying guns only so I dont take it. The result of those scissors are another example of how dangerous it can be to fail to make the kill. It might have been wiser at 5:20 or so to turn left away from the MiG and accellerate and turn back again. Or even just starting the zoom earlier. There is definitely a shooting opportunity on the way up into that climb at 5:30. Here it probably would have been better to get steeper in the zoom or even just go straight vertical. I also turn left in the spiral whereas it probably would have worked better continuing to the right. I get fairly slow without having the nose up high enough as well. This one didnt work out nearly as nicely as the others even though I had quite an energy margin at some points there.

Anyway, very far from perfect, but perhaps illustrative in a few ways.

 

Edit: Btw this was flown with full internal fuel and 4 sidewinders. By the end I had burned 6000 lbs of gas.

Edited May 26, 2024 by Phantom12

[Capn kamikaze]

Keep the speed up, if you're not greying out you're not fast enough.

[Kev2go]

On 5/22/2024 at 6:48 PM, Victory205 said:

You are the first one back to the White Board, share how to win here.

You trade in the f4 for an F14a on cold war servers and then start clubbing baby seals.

Even against ai flight models that don't bleed speed, and have a 6th sense as thier SA.

 

 

Edited May 26, 2024 by Kev2go

[kraze]

On 5/23/2024 at 12:03 PM, irisono said:

There is no advice for combating UFO planes with the F-4E. The AI flight models of some DCS modules are unsophisticated and completely unrealistic. Measured by their real technical parameters (power- and wing loading, G limits, etc.), these DCS modules can rise into the sky like rockets, and they hardly lose any energy during high G-maneuvers. They can fly abrupt turns without being damaged. In reality they would lose their wings. The UFO behavior of modules such as the Mig-21Bis, Mig-19, F-5E must be corrected as soon as possible. The best solution to address this problem is the early introduction of the General Flight Model Program (GFM) announced by DCS. This announcement was made a long time ago. Little has happened so far apart from a few corrections in the WWII section. This problem remains unsolved for all other modules.

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/news/newsletters/a134f231fe8269e1c78dd6d0dd8c3c9d/

and here I was really thinking I'm that bad of a pilot after 2.8 supposedly made AI planes behave less UFO. Although admittedly YoYos work wonders after the initial merge and I can put that heater reticle almost immediately on the enemy plane after going back from that maneuver - but if I somehow mess that up - an AI MiG will then run very tight circles around me until one of us runs out of fuel.

Edited May 26, 2024 by kraze

[Snappy]

On 5/26/2024 at 2:07 PM, Phantom12 said:

Ok here goes: This is by no means perfect and its vs AI so take it for what its worth. Some parts I think are decent demonstrations of what sort of things one might try in the F-4 to get an advantage against a tigher turning or very aggressive oponnent. Obviously some parts of it will not work against enemies with All aspect missiles or in a not 1v1 scenario. Feel free to critique or point out errors as you all see them.

The first turn is a decent example of a spiral climb. Bleeding off speed in the first part of that turn was probably a mistake but it worked out in the end. I can quickly tell hes bled alot of speed so I start climbing until he cant keep up, then go steeper nose up and reverse with the rudder. The AI tries to shoot its RQ missiles at me but its high angle off and they probably wouldnt make the turn unless he had fired them with alot more lead. Coming down like I said I was managing AoA to try and get into an offensive position while also getting at least some amount of speed back as well.

The snapshot at 2:30 or so showed bullets pass between the wingtip and fuselage... Close but no cigar. Flat scissors are clearly the MiGs playground and the F-4 can only stay there so long so its time to do something else. Getting out was the right call but the climb afterwards is a good example of what not to do as an energy fighter. Impatiently it was started too early and without enough energy margin. A player or less stupid AI probably would have shot me at the top at 3:20. Failing to make the kill as the energy fighter can be quite dangerous.

The better move is IMO what I did after that at about 3:30. Dive towards the bandits extended 6 oclock and pick up speed. Then start a sustained turn back for a neutral merge. Since the F-4 accellerates better than the MiG you might even come back with an advantage if you time the turn back right. I stay horizontal in a sustained turn again here, and the MiG goes nose to nose. Since he gained a huge amount of angles in that one turn he must either be slower than me or turning very hard and getting very slow by the time weve come around.

Now its time to defend the snapshot and start going vertical again. Given he had no more missiles I might have tried a pure vertical zoom here as well. After this zoom I end up with what is probably a pretty good RQ missile shot position. In this case Im trying guns only so I dont take it. The result of those scissors are another example of how dangerous it can be to fail to make the kill. It might have been wiser at 5:20 or so to turn left away from the MiG and accellerate and turn back again. Or even just starting the zoom earlier. There is definitely a shooting opportunity on the way up into that climb at 5:30. Here it probably would have been better to get steeper in the zoom or even just go straight vertical. I also turn left in the spiral whereas it probably would have worked better continuing to the right. I get fairly slow without having the nose up high enough as well. This one didnt work out nearly as nicely as the others even though I had quite an energy margin at some points there.

Anyway, very far from perfect, but perhaps illustrative in a few ways.

 

Edit: Btw this was flown with full internal fuel and 4 sidewinders. By the end I had burned 6000 lbs of gas.

 

Hello Phantom12,

thank you for your two detailed replies and the tacview video with your commentary! Much appreciated.

Hadnˋt known about the phantom guide that you linked to on the phantom site, that’s good reading, thanks a lot!

Your tacview file was interesting. I had expected you would gain more margin / turning room on the parts where you went up vertical, but to my surprise the bandits speed often didn’t really drop that much below your own and regenerated quickly (almost on par with your own speed), while the vertical separation wasn’t as large either. Maybe it was partly due to the full fuel load and/or AI performance.

All in all the fight went on longer than I expected with fewer shot opportunities.

I simply may have to revise my expectations on how quickly a superior position/valid shot position can be gained against this type of opponent.

The margin for error is seemingly small when going vertical, especially if the bandit has any semi-decent IR missiles and conserves just enough speed to bring his nose on.

Edited May 27, 2024 by Snappy

[Phantom12]

Keep in mind its AI so the energy addition and bleed rates for the MiG probably dont match the player FM. Even for a player though the MiG-19 will have an accelleration/thrust advantage over the F-4 at higher Gs and lower Speeds, which of course reduces margins. A few of those zooms are poorly executed on my part as well and I started them without enough advantage or flew them inefficiently. IMO the good ones are the initial climb and the one after the extension and turnback. Some of the others are "bad, but got away with it". The AI also flew very aggressively in this case, bleeding alot of speed and giving me opportunities to zoom, which a more patient player may not do. Its probably more practical to shoot such a player with a sparrow before the merge, or bring a wingman and gang up on him.

 

In the end I think you're right that it serves to illustrate that energy tactics can be tricky to implement in practice, require much attention to the details to get right, and can take quite a long time to make a kill.

[Lord_Pyro]

14 hours ago, kraze said:

and here I was really thinking I'm that bad of a pilot after 2.8 supposedly made AI planes behave less UFO. Although admittedly YoYos work wonders after the initial merge and I can put that heater reticle almost immediately on the enemy plane after going back from that maneuver - but if I somehow mess that up - an AI MiG will then run very tight circles around me until one of us runs out of fuel.

 

If it's AI try popping your speedbrakes, until he overshoots. Use scissors to avoid guns/fox 2's and as soon as he is next to you retract the brakes, full a/b and gain enough Energy to pull the reticle just high enough for a snapshot Fox 2 shot. 

Worked pretty consistently for me.

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

Gun was hard to use...if the opponent could climb and turn better than you, e.g. MiG-23MLD, it would be quite a hard fight. May be, I was just bad.

[Victory205]

4 hours ago, Phantom12 said:

Keep in mind its AI so the energy addition and bleed rates for the MiG probably dont match the player FM. Even for a player though the MiG-19 will have an accelleration/thrust advantage over the F-4 at higher Gs and lower Speeds, which of course reduces margins. A few of those zooms are poorly executed on my part as well and I started them without enough advantage or flew them inefficiently. IMO the good ones are the initial climb and the one after the extension and turnback. Some of the others are "bad, but got away with it". The AI also flew very aggressively in this case, bleeding alot of speed and giving me opportunities to zoom, which a more patient player may not do. Its probably more practical to shoot such a player with a sparrow before the merge, or bring a wingman and gang up on him.

 

In the end I think you're right that it serves to illustrate that energy tactics can be tricky to implement in practice, require much attention to the details to get right, and can take quite a long time to make a kill.

You have a good attitude and strong grasp of ACM concepts (I should call it BFM, since we’re flying a USAF Phantom). Trying different tactics, speeds, maneuvers and evaluating the results is how you improve.

[Jayhawk1971]

Late last night I tried Reflected's "Weapon's school 1v1 DACT vs F-5E" quick start mission on the NTTR map. My first time trying ACM/BFM in the Phantom. To my surprise, it went quite well. 

Opted for nose/tail fight after the merge, then kept my speed up and used the vertical (yo-yo) whenever the AI tightened it's turn. 

It didn't take long until I got the kill. Probably not that big of an accomplishment, but it felt good, especially for the first time in that module. 

Subjective, but I believe the Phantom module gives even more feedback than the Tomcat, so I could  almost "feel" the respective energy states (hard to describe) I was in.

[nikoel]

I'm going to quickly plug the DCS Dogfighting Servers. There are a bunch of them, I am impartial to what I affectionally call the Corgi Server. They are best because the server is setup with 8miles of separation between you and your [very human] opponent with instant respawn. Unlike air quake servers where you boot up, take off, spend 10-15 minutes flying maaaaybe get to merge, you can quickly get into knife fights and instantly respawn to do it again

Yes if it's your first time or you've been only playing against AI or the 'systems focused type' of players you will bringing a baguette to the said knife fight. But with lots of practice, (probably a bunch of Syrian Lead Turns) that baguette will become hardened, and you will get better

Understand the basics, 2C, 1C, your rate speeds for the aircraft type and where your advantages may lie, but it's all about practice, practice, practice. They also take training requests if you don't want to get your ego bruised

Edited May 27, 2024 by nikoel

[SuperKermit]

Am 24.5.2024 um 16:51 schrieb Phantom12:

I highly encourage anyone who is interested to go check out contact lights charts for themselves on the DCS dogfighters discord. They are well presented and made directly from the DCS flight models, which takes alot of the guesswork out of working with the IRL charts.

Would you mind sharing a link to those charts? I am a complete Discord noob and find finding something there extremely cumbesome 

[Phantom12]

2 hours ago, Victory205 said:

You have a good attitude and strong grasp of ACM concepts (I should call it BFM, since we’re flying a USAF Phantom). Trying different tactics, speeds, maneuvers and evaluating the results is how you improve.

Thankyou for your kind words. Im glad if my ramblings are helpful to people here or serve to further the discussion.

 

17 minutes ago, SuperKermit said:

Would you mind sharing a link to those charts? I am a complete Discord noob and find finding something there extremely cumbesome 

I attached the file to this post, otherwise it can be found directly at this link: https://discord.com/channels/743133715672072192/1092582325591740516/1092610588162654280

All credit for these goes to Contact Light on the DCS dogfighters discord. Hope he doesn't mind me posting them here but you can find them in the user files with a google search as well.

https://discord.com/invite/dogfighters

Here is the chart for the F-4E

Subsonic_Energy_Maneuverability_Diagrams_for_DCS_202304.pdf

Edited May 27, 2024 by Phantom12

[HWasp]

54 minutes ago, Phantom12 said:

Thankyou for your kind words. Im glad if my ramblings are helpful to people here or serve to further the discussion.

 

I attached the file to this post, otherwise it can be found directly at this link: https://discord.com/channels/743133715672072192/1092582325591740516/1092610588162654280

All credit for these goes to Contact Light on the DCS dogfighters discord. Hope he doesn't mind me posting them here but you can find them in the user files with a google search as well.

https://discord.com/invite/dogfighters

Here is the chart for the F-4E

Subsonic_Energy_Maneuverability_Diagrams_for_DCS_202304.pdf 12.84 MB · 2 downloads

 

 

The MiG-21 charts seems to be without the ChR (emergency afterburner). I can sustain 13 - 13,5 degrees / sec around 220 kts with it engaged, so be careful, there is no STR advantage for the Phantom there. Also, the MiG-21 can easily go vertical even from there (220 kts) and complete a full loop easily any quickly. With that in mind, I'd say always keep the Phantom between 400 and 520 kts and never let go of that speed unless pulling in for a real good shot.

 

MiG-21_450-420.trk

[Phantom12]

13 minutes ago, HWasp said:

 

The MiG-21 charts seems to be without the ChR (emergency afterburner). I can sustain 13 - 13,5 degrees / sec around 220 kts with it engaged, so be careful, there is no STR advantage for the Phantom there. Also, the MiG-21 can easily go vertical even from there (220 kts) and complete a full loop easily any quickly. With that in mind, I'd say always keep the Phantom between 400 and 520 kts and never let go of that speed unless pulling in for a real good shot.

 

MiG-21_450-420.trk 1.22 MB · 0 downloads

The post I screenshotted below and the test date suggested to me that it had been included. Anyway I agree the F-4 has no business trying to fight a MiG-21 at 220 knots.

 

Like I wrote on the first page here my interpretation is that at slow speed the MiG has the advantage, which evens out by around 300-350 knots, and in the 400-500 the F-4 has an advantage.

 

A MiG-21 at 220 knots would seem like a great case to try a climbing spiral. Depending ofc on weapons etc. Part of the idea with the spiral is to keep the bandits nose off, or be out of range for guns/present a high angle off/los rate for RQ heaters even if he can get the nose on. Initiating it at the right moment, such as after the pass in a 1 circle fight where the bandit has to bring the nose around quite a bit helps as well.

 

[SuperKermit]

Am 25.5.2024 um 01:08 schrieb Phantom12:

If you don't have a Ps advantage you wont find any gains just by doing the same turn you would horizontally but in the vertical.

I wonder if this is really correct.

Doing a turn vertically also means a slower turn velocity at the top. That means less drag and thus energy wasted. Additionally the gravity helps with overcoming the moment of intertia.

I do not want to start a debate on BFM principles but isn't that the whole idea of going vertical.

[Phantom12]

2 hours ago, SuperKermit said:

I wonder if this is really correct.

Doing a turn vertically also means a slower turn velocity at the top. That means less drag and thus energy wasted. Additionally the gravity helps with overcoming the moment of intertia.

I do not want to start a debate on BFM principles but isn't that the whole idea of going vertical.

A similar opponent will follow you through all of that. Imagine 2 F-4s tailchasing in loops, why should one outturn the other. If one flies a wider loop he will spend less energy for turning and more for climbing, and end up higher. But the same concept applies to two F-4s turning in the horizontal as well. If you pull harder you end up slower than the guy who pulled less.

 

If by flying a vertical or oblique maneuver you fly the airplane at lower G where you have a Ps advantage, like in a zoom, spiral climb, or pitchback, you can use that to build an energy advantage or vertical separation. At the top you can then roll or reverse to come down in any direction you want to make up the angles you lost while building energy. The same maneuvers apply against an equal opponent with less energy.

Simply flying an oblique tailchase wont do anything for you in the F-4 unless you are exploiting an energy or thrust advantage. Flying nose high oblique turns widens your radius as well due to Gods G as you mentioned. And any sustained turn at low speed in an F-4 is worse than a sustained turn at high speed.

Consider the F-4 vs F-4 case again: The bad guy F-4 flies a sustained horizontal turn at 500 knots, while you start a slightly oblique nose high turn with constant energy throughout. Radius increases on the way up, and decreases on the way down and it balances out overall (the two ends of the egg meet up again). For some portion of this turn, while you are higher, you are also slower (constant energy) and turn less than your opponent does, without gaining any energy. You meet again near the starting point with equal energy and an angular disadvantage.

Alternatively if you just put the nose straight up without an energy advantage, he will follow you up and kill you. If he does not do this he is probably very passive or doesnt know what hes doing. You need to bleed his energy first before going up.

 

Edit: for completeness sake there are some things one can do with out of plane maneuvers like in this example from Shaw's book. Don't expect most opponents to be as passive as the target in this example though, like I said its not just a matter of vertical maneuvers > horizontal.

Edited May 28, 2024 by Phantom12

[SuperKermit]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Phantom12:

Consider the F-4 vs F-4 case again: The bad guy F-4 flies a sustained horizontal turn at 500 knots, while you start a slightly oblique nose high turn with constant energy throughout. Radius increases on the way up, and decreases on the way down and it balances out overall (the two ends of the egg meet up again). For some portion of this turn, while you are higher, you are also slower (constant energy) and turn less than your opponent does, without gaining any energy. You meet again near the starting point with equal energy and an angular disadvantage.

Ah, now I understand your point. Thank's for laying that out! 

[Snappy]

2 hours ago, Phantom12 said:

…while you start a slightly oblique nose high turn with constant energy throughout. Radius increases on the way up, and decreases on the way down and it balances out overall..

Probably really just me being dumb, but now I’m confused: Why does radius increase on the way up and decrease on the way down?  

I thought , given a more or less steady pull ( assuming still enough G available ) , the radius decreases as speed decreases on the way up, reaches a minimum at the apex of the egg and slowly increases again as speed is regained on the way down?

 

Edited May 28, 2024 by Snappy