cannot reproduce AI F-4E-45-MC refuses to fire/drop most guided air-to-ground weapons

[Northstar98]

Hi everyone,

For whatever reason, I cannot seem to get the AI F-4E-45-MC to use Paveway II and Paveway III series laser guided bombs against points on the ground. Upon reaching the waypoint with the bombing task, the aircraft simply turn around, follow the rest of their waypoints and land.

I've tried numerous options on the weapon to use (AUTO just ends up using the internal cannon, I've also tried guided bombs, guided and bombs) to no avail, override AI attack avoidance decisions also doesn't appear to change the behaviour (and in any case, this mission is empty apart for the AI aircraft - there's no threats).

It also doesn't seem to matter if the task is set to CAS and whether or not you use the CAS, Attack Group/Unit or Search then Engage tasks, none seem to work.

The issue seems to be fairly exclusive to Heatblur's F-4E-45-MC (though the F-5E-3 also failed to drop the bombs, but then, there wasn't anything to provide designation). Attached is a track showing what happens with the GBU-12, the issue is also present on the GBU-10 and GBU-24B/B (the latter should actually be an A/B, but that's for HB to fix).

EDIT: The problem is also happening with a few other weapons as well, it seems mostly isolated to guided air-to-surface weapons, with exceptions (so far the AI is fairly reliable when engaging with the AGM-12).

• In AI_F-4E_AGM-65D_nofire.trk, you can see that the AI won't fire Mavericks at a tank platoon, the same is true for every other Maverick the F-4E-45-MC has available. It also happens regardless of what the Maverick is mounted on (be it the LAU-117, the LAU-117 on the special weapons adapter or the LAU-88).
• In AI_F-4E_AGM-45A_nofire.trk, you can see that the AI won't fire an AGM-45A at the SON-9 (the guidance section is set appropriately), I have got it to fire at the Big Bird and the P-19 however - it seems a bit inconsistent. I also can't get it to fire at the Fan Song or Low Blow. EDIT 2: The AI will only fire AGM-45A if the SEAD advanced waypoint task is active, it doesn't work if you only have an Attack Group/Unit or Search then Engage task set.
• The GBU-8 is as with the Paveway II and III described above, see F-4E_AI_GBU-8_nodrop.trk. Both Walleyes however are unaffected.

F-4E_AI_LGB_bug.trk

AI_F-4E_AGM-45A_nofire.trk AI_F-4E_AGM-65D_nofire.trk AI_F-4E_GBU-8_nodrop.trk

Edited July 2, 2024 by Northstar98
Addendum on Shrike - only works if the SEAD advanced waypoint action is set

[Lookiss]

I noticed similar behaviour for the AI F-15E S4+. It will only drop JDAMS, but no laser guided bombs.  It does work with the older F-15E AI.

GBU-54 are not dropped either by the newer AI F-15E S4+.

F-15 S4 GBU-12 nodrop.trk F-15 S4 GBU-38 OKdrop.trk F-15 S4 GBU-54 nodrop.trk

Edited June 1, 2024 by Lookiss

[RedeyeStorm]

Did you post this in the dedicated bug forums of the respected modules? May be the problem is with Heatblur and Razbam and not ED.

[Northstar98]

9 minutes ago, RedeyeStorm said:

Did you post this in the dedicated bug forums of the respected modules? May be the problem is with Heatblur and Razbam and not ED.

AFAIK ED is responsible for AI behaviour, not the 3rd party developers.

[RedeyeStorm]

[curioso007]

This problem was reported and there is no solution, this is one of the reasons why I still haven't bought the F-4, any response from the developer?

[Northstar98]

Looks like this issue is mostly resolved with the 2.9.7.58923 update - the AI F-4E-45-MC will now drop LGBs, the GBU-8 and the Shrike now works with Attack Unit/Group and Search Then Engage tasks as opposed to just SEAD (which gives you no control of quantity).

However, the AI still refuses to fire AGM-65s, regardless of the task (i.e. CAS or SEAD), the advanced waypoint action (i.e. Attack Unit/Group or either of the Search Then Engage Tasks), the AGM-65 variant or the launcher used.

With an identical set up, no other aircraft has this problem.

In the tracks below I have a single F-4E with 2 AGM-65Ds, set to engage a single T-55 using the Attack Group advanced waypoint action. The aircraft simply follows its waypoints and lands. This occurs regardless of what settings are used - be it Attack Unit or Group, the CAS task or the Search Then Engage Task - it appears that under no circumstances will the AI F-4E-45-MC engage with Mavericks.

Keeping the exact same set up and swapping the F-4E for an A-10, AJS 37, F-16CM or any other Maverick-firing platform has the AI engaging as expected, for the settings set. I've also attached 2 tracks with an otherwise identical set up, but substituting the F-4E for an F-16CM Block 50, as you'll be able to see, the F-16 engages as expected, as does every other Maverick-firing aircraft - this issue is exclusive to the F-4E.

F-4E_AGM-65D_AttackGroup_NoFire.trk F-4E_AGM-65D_CAS_NoFire.trk F-16CM-50_AGM-65D_CAS_Test.trk F-16CM-50_AGM-65D_AttackGroup_Test.trk

[Northstar98]

As another addendum, for some reason the Pave Spike seems to be required to get the AI to employ GBU-8 HOBOS.

This shouldn't be the case - it should be possible for the AI to employ GBU-8 without needing to carry Pave Spike. After all, the GBU-8 uses an electro-optical seeker - it doesn't require laser designation and the bomb is completely independent when it's dropped. Moreover, target acquisition and tracking has to be done via the GBU-8, using its seeker as a sensor as it's not possible to slew or slave the seeker to the Pave Spike's LOS.

In the tracks below I have an identical set-up, the only difference is whether or not Pave Spike is carried. In F-4E_GBU-8_PaveSpike.trk, the F-4E has Pave Spike equipped and drops the GBU-8 as expected, but in F-4E_GBU-8_NoPaveSpike.trk it ignores the target and simply follows its waypoints, eventually landing at the nearest valid aerodrome.

F-4E_GBU-8_PaveSpike.trk F-4E_GBU-8_NoPaveSpike.trk

Edited August 10, 2024 by Northstar98

[Linx]

Still bugged. AI refuses to use AGM-65 and some other weapons.

[Northstar98]

As of 2.9.8.1107, it looks like the AI now uses AGM-65s (all versions) without issue - great to see! It looks like this bug is now mostly resolved - the AI will now employ near enough every AG guided weapon as expected, though there are still some outstanding issues (one of them however is a general AI bug) though they should probably be their own thread (as the AI will fire them).

However:

• The AI still seemingly requires Pave Spike to be equipped in order to employ the GBU-8/B HOBOS (see above). This isn't a problem that affects either of the Walleyes.
• The AI won't employ the AGM-45A Shrike against the SON-9 or AN/MPQ-64F1, regardless of guidance section set. I'm not sure whether or not the AN/MPQ-64F1 is correct as-is, but the SON-9 definitely isn't - it is explicitly mentioned as an intended target for the Mk 23, Mk 24 Mod 5 and 34 guidance sections.

AI_F-4E_AGM-45A_Mk23_SON-9_NoFire.trk AI_F-4E_AGM-45A_Mk24-5_SON-9_NoFire.trk AI_F-4E_AGM-45A_Mk24-34_SON-9_NoFire.trk AI_F-4E_AGM-45A_Mk50_SON-9_NoFire.trk

Edited October 1, 2024 by Northstar98
added missing link

[f-18hornet]

Hi @Northstar98, thank you, reported for internal analysis.

[Northstar98]

3 hours ago, f-18hornet said:

Hi @Northstar98, thank you, reported for internal analysis.

Thank you - though just for clarity, many of the issues brought up in this thread have now been fixed, it's only really the GBU-8 HOBOS without Pave Spike and a couple of radars that the AI refuse to engage using the AGM-45A.

EDIT: I also forgot to link the general AI bug mentioned, which refers to AI employment of the Paveway III (they seemingly calculate for a purely ballistic trajectory, as would be expected with say, an unguided bomb - the Paveway III series in DCS performs a bump-up which means, when dropped at low altitude, the bomb lands long), please see this thread.

Edited October 1, 2024 by Northstar98

[Chizh]

AGM-45

The F-4E can only attack radars when their directional pattern is in its direction. If the antenna is rotating, it will not be able to attack, and the missile will not be able to target.
Shrike is a first-generation ARM missile, it were only guided to the main lobe of the directional pattern, unlike the HARM, which can homing the side and rear lobes.

[Northstar98]

On 10/7/2024 at 11:42 AM, Chizh said:

The F-4E can only attack radars when their directional pattern is in its direction.

This is the case in the tracks above - the SON-9 can be seen to be tracking the target.

Typically, I observe the SON-9 begin tracking at around 12-13 nmi. Attacks with the Shrike by the AI, from a starting altitude of 18000 ft, typically fire at a range of 4-5 nmi.

On 10/7/2024 at 11:42 AM, Chizh said:

If the antenna is rotating, it will not be able to attack, and the missile will not be able to target.

To be clear - this is not a Shrike failing to track problem - this is an AI refusing to engage problem. The AI simply overflies the target and lands, not even attempting to fire. There are some cases where an AI-fired Shrike doesn't track the targeted radar, but here the problem is that the AI doesn't make an attempt to engage at all.

And, for what it's worth, the Shrike is indeed capable of tracking radars that are rotating:

Spoiler

For example - the Mk 37 guidance section is intended to be used against the P-15 (we have the P-19, which is an upgraded version of the P-15, operating in the same band) - a radar that only rotates (at least in DCS anyway). The Mark 37 does indeed home on the P-19 (and the AN/MPQ-50 PAR - another radar that rotates) without issue. It continues to guide even if the radar is facing away from the missile (and so the missile isn't within the main lobe - though on this topic, how would the main, side and back lobes differ from each other from the Shrike's perspective - the same exact waveform is still present in these lobes, they just cover different areas and are lower in power).

Several of the E/F band guidance sections are intended to be used against the P-35/35M/37 (these are also the guidance sections intended to be used against the SON-9) - the P-35/35M/37 are again, radars that only rotate (these guidance sections in DCS are also marked for the Tin Shield, another radar that rotates).

Not to forget, that IRL, Shrikes were used with limited success against an AN/TPS-43 radar in the Falklands War - the TPS-43 is again, a radar that rotates.

I have made a table from tests performed using the AI - several rotating radars are able to be targeted by the Shrike - including the 1S11, 5N59S, 5N64S and 5N66M as well the acquisition radars of the 2K22 and 9K33 (and in both the latter cases, the track/fire-control radar operates in the J band - above what any Shrike guidance section can target - so it must be homing on the acquisition radar). The table can be found in this post:

Edited October 10, 2024 by Northstar98
more detail, used a spoiler

[Northstar98]

Just to demonstrate that the problem isn't the Shrikes tracking the SON-9, here are 4 tracks tested from a player aircraft. In all 4 cases the Shrikes do acquire and track the SON-9 (albeit they have fairly dreadful accuracy, usually landing short).

In these tests the SON-9 starts tracking the aircraft at around 12.5-13 nmi, the Shrike is fired around ~9 nmi. In all 4 I've used the WRCS Shrike mode, with the guidance sections set to loft attack, using a lofted profile.

The problem I'm encountering is with the AI, where the AI seemingly makes no attempt to engage the SON-9, as they do with other radars, regardless of whether or not the SON-9 is in search or track. They simply overfly the SON-9, as if it isn't there and proceed to follow their waypoints. The same mission as above works with nearly every other radar that falls within the frequence range the Shrike's guidance sections can target.

AGM-45A_SON-9_Mk50_WRCS_loft.trk AGM-45A_SON-9_Mk24-34_WRCS_loft.trk AGM-45A_SON-9_Mk24-5_WRCS_loft.trk AGM-45A_SON-9_Mk23_WRCS_loft.trk

[gillouf1]

Could someone share a SEAD mission file in wich an AI F-4E manage to fire a Shrike missile vs a Flat Face radar?

I tried dozens missions with different setting, but they all failed: the F-4 never fire a single Shrike and they where shot down every time... I don't understand witch setting I miss in the Mission Editor or witch one is wrong.

Thx

@+

Edited October 9, 2024 by gillouf1

[Northstar98]

34 minutes ago, gillouf1 said:

Could someone share a SEAD mission file in wich an AI F-4E manage to fire a Shrike missile versus a Flat Face radar?

I tried dozens missions with different setting, but they all failed: the F-4 never fire a single Shrike and they where shot down every time... I don't understand witch setting I miss in the Mission Editor or witch one is wrong.

Thx

@+

Here I've got one where there's just a P-19 with no accompanying S-125.

Make sure that:

1. Make sure the P-19 is actually radiating (this is the default behaviour)
2. The Shrike's guidance section needs to be set to Mark 37 - it is the only one that targets the same band as the P-19.
3. Check the AI's reaction to threat and override attack avoidance decisions. Make sure the former isn't set to "allow abort mission" and turn the latter on.
4. Try using perform task -> attack unit/group and search then engage as opposed to just SEAD.

The other thing to bear in mind that the AI will only fire the AGM-45A in direct and in a dive, which results in firings only at very close ranges (and the Shrike isn't that long-ranged to begin with) - just about every SAM will outrange the Shrike when fired by the AI.

The AI also isn't the best when it comes to attacking SAMs and miss opportunities to turn in and fire when one presents itself - so keep that in mind.

But provided the AI can get to a firing position, they will definitely engage the P-19 and the Mark 37 guidance section is definitely capable of tracking it.

EDIT: Made the AI actually fight an S-125M site, I used a 4-ship of aircraft and while they took losses (including controlled flight into the water) an aircraft did make a successful engagement against the site's P-19, using an AGM-45.

AGM-45A_P-19_test.miz AGM-45A_P-19_Mk37.trk

AGM-45A_S-125M_test.miz AGM-45A_S-125M_Mk37.trk

Edited October 9, 2024 by Northstar98

[gillouf1]

Thx.

Will try it tomorrow

@+

[gillouf1]

Tried it 4 times = 4 different results: 1 to 4 F-4E shot down, but 0 Shrike fired and 0 radar destroyed...

I hope a future update will resolve this problem.

@+

[Northstar98]

57 minutes ago, gillouf1 said:

Tried it 4 times = 4 different results: 1 to 4 F-4E shot down, but 0 Shrike fired and 0 radar destroyed...

I hope a future update will resolve this problem.

@+

The track I posted accompanying it (which is the same mission) shows a Shrike being fired at the P-19 and successfully destroying it, after 1 aircraft crashed and another shot down.

The mission and track posted with just the P-19 has it engaged 100% of the time.

There's nothing wrong here so long as the AI can get close enough to engage it, though their "tactics" sometimes hinders that.

[gillouf1]

I tried the "AGM-45A_S125M_test" mission... 

@+

 

[Northstar98]

5 hours ago, gillouf1 said:

I tried the "AGM-45A_S125M_test" mission... 

@+

 

And if you play AGM-45A_S-125M_Mk37.trk you'll see the same mission working (if you watch the track then change .trk to .miz you can confirm it's the same mission).

So long as the AI can get to a position where they can fire, it works - the track proves it.

[gillouf1]

Ok, thx.

So, unfortunately,  the AI doesn't manage to get the good position to fire everytime...

@+

 

[gillouf1]

OK, this time the AI F-4E managed to destroy his target.

The F-4E approached at very low level (150 ft AGL) and the attack waypoint was inside the domain where the SA-2 is ineficient (+/- 2 NM): the F-4E fired 2 Shrike and destroyed the Fan Song radar.

 

@+

Edited October 16, 2024 by gillouf1

[NineLine]

On 5/23/2024 at 12:58 AM, Northstar98 said:

Hi everyone,

For whatever reason, I cannot seem to get the AI F-4E-45-MC to use Paveway II and Paveway III series laser guided bombs against points on the ground. Upon reaching the waypoint with the bombing task, the aircraft simply turn around, follow the rest of their waypoints and land.

I've tried numerous options on the weapon to use (AUTO just ends up using the internal cannon, I've also tried guided bombs, guided and bombs) to no avail, override AI attack avoidance decisions also doesn't appear to change the behaviour (and in any case, this mission is empty apart for the AI aircraft - there's no threats).

It also doesn't seem to matter if the task is set to CAS and whether or not you use the CAS, Attack Group/Unit or Search then Engage tasks, none seem to work.

The issue seems to be fairly exclusive to Heatblur's F-4E-45-MC (though the F-5E-3 also failed to drop the bombs, but then, there wasn't anything to provide designation). Attached is a track showing what happens with the GBU-12, the issue is also present on the GBU-10 and GBU-24B/B (the latter should actually be an A/B, but that's for HB to fix).

EDIT: The problem is also happening with a few other weapons as well, it seems mostly isolated to guided air-to-surface weapons, with exceptions (so far the AI is fairly reliable when engaging with the AGM-12).

• In AI_F-4E_AGM-65D_nofire.trk, you can see that the AI won't fire Mavericks at a tank platoon, the same is true for every other Maverick the F-4E-45-MC has available. It also happens regardless of what the Maverick is mounted on (be it the LAU-117, the LAU-117 on the special weapons adapter or the LAU-88).
• In AI_F-4E_AGM-45A_nofire.trk, you can see that the AI won't fire an AGM-45A at the SON-9 (the guidance section is set appropriately), I have got it to fire at the Big Bird and the P-19 however - it seems a bit inconsistent. I also can't get it to fire at the Fan Song or Low Blow. EDIT 2: The AI will only fire AGM-45A if the SEAD advanced waypoint task is active, it doesn't work if you only have an Attack Group/Unit or Search then Engage task set.
• The GBU-8 is as with the Paveway II and III described above, see F-4E_AI_GBU-8_nodrop.trk. Both Walleyes however are unaffected.

F-4E_AI_LGB_bug.trk 39.95 kB · 2 downloads

AI_F-4E_AGM-45A_nofire.trk 50.07 kB · 2 downloads AI_F-4E_AGM-65D_nofire.trk 42.87 kB · 2 downloads AI_F-4E_GBU-8_nodrop.trk 34.22 kB · 2 downloads

 

These are at least working internally, have you rechecked recently? Thanks.