[Suggestion] Spring joystick control.

[Renko]

41 minutes ago, Baldrick33 said:

For me it is really easy to see. FFB on (in Misc) and the stick is centred on the runway, off and it is dropped forward. More subtly as you fly pitch forward and watch the virtual stick move on its own back (FFB off). With FFB on the virtual stick moves as per the physical stick.

Weird, I tried exactly what you described and same thing. No difference for me in my setup. FFB on or off
Maybe DCS is forcing somethings for some hardware, and not for others. Strange behavior

(As a note my stick is a Virpil CM3 base+T50CM2 grip)

[Baldrick33]

1 hour ago, Renko said:

Weird, I tried exactly what you described and same thing. No difference for me in my setup. FFB on or off
Maybe DCS is forcing somethings for some hardware, and not for others. Strange behavior

(As a note my stick is a Virpil CM3 base+T50CM2 grip)

Same base and Alpha Prime grip so definitely not hardware. Running MT haven’t tested with ST.

Edited to add: What about values in FFTune for pitch? Mine is 100, 50 for trim & shake. I use JoyPro to set controls which has a FFB tab so not sure if this makes any difference? 

Edited May 28, 2024 by Baldrick33

[FusRoPotato]

4 hours ago, Renko said:

Weird, I tried exactly what you described and same thing. No difference for me in my setup. FFB on or off
Maybe DCS is forcing somethings for some hardware, and not for others. Strange behavior

(As a note my stick is a Virpil CM3 base+T50CM2 grip)

I've tried limiting my framerate to 30 instead of 165, reducing the FFB gains in the options to several different settings including 0, increasing the force limit option, enabling and disabling the blending option, running Fullscreen, and varying the update rate of vjoy between 100 and 1000 hz. Unfortunately, the stick is the same hot dog in all conditions with FFB off. The only productive thing I've discovered so far trying to figure out if there might be a condition that reduces the effect is discover that the deadzone setting for the AB detent is completely non-functional. New and unrelated bug.

Just to clarify, if you pull back hard on the stick and then quickly release it to center while in flight, the in-game stick does not dramatically wobble around for you? It's not clear to me if you are seeing wobble with FFB on, or not seeing wobble with FFB off.

Edited May 29, 2024 by FusRoPotato

[kablamoman]

4 hours ago, FusRoPotato said:

discover that the deadzone setting for the AB detent is completely non-functional.

Not sure if you noticed (it’s hard to see), but the slider is not a percentage but a per mille of total travel. Might just have to jack up the value.

Edited May 29, 2024 by kablamoman

[Redliner7]

Count me in as also having unintentional induced oscillations on the pitch axis after pulling back on the stick, when I return the physical stick to neutral, the virtual stick and stab will pitch too far forward upon return and have forward stick axis.

I've also noticed that I trim a lot LESS than the Tomcat as well, I thought I'd be trimming more often, which is peculiar to me.

I've tried turning off the ffb option as suggested, no effect for me. I'm flying with a TM Warthog.

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

[Renko]

10 hours ago, FusRoPotato said:

Just to clarify, if you pull back hard on the stick and then quickly release it to center while in flight, the in-game stick does not dramatically wobble around for you? It's not clear to me if you are seeing wobble with FFB on, or not seeing wobble with FFB off.

Dramatically wobble? Nope
My experience is more similar to what you see in Kablamoman's video. Smooth. I dont have weird the spikes in take off or the huge back&forth throw Maksim Savelev showed

Thats why i suggested IronMike to do a video with the expected behaviour.


BTW this that was said by Victory before, its worth to take into account to see the different center between Virtual stick (brown diamond) and Physical stick (Big green diamond).
Useful when doing pitch axis tests

On 5/27/2024 at 6:18 AM, Victory205 said:

Another is that the physical stick has a symmetric throw in all axis, but the real aircraft don’t, with the neutral point well forward in the arc, so that more aft stick throw is available than forward stick. The F14 also has a physical pitch curve already built into its system, so you can see that the module’s virtual stick doesn’t follow the player’s physical stick in a 1:1 fashion.

Edited May 29, 2024 by Renko

[kablamoman]

3 hours ago, Renko said:

Dramatically wobble? Nope
My experience is more similar to what you see in Kablamoman's video. Smooth.

My experience is not smooth. Did you watch the video all the way?

The oscillations in stab control resulting in pitch oscillations are quite apparent, as highlighted in @FusRoPotato’s first graph where he plotted the non-FFB stick response over the FFB stick.

The squiggly blue line (as opposed to the squared off orange line) is what I’m experiencing.

 

 

[Baldrick33]

These are some crude captures of the behaviour, in both cases I am simply pulling the stick back and forward.

I am using a Virpil CM3 base with Virpil stick, the first is with FFB turned on and the second with FFB off in the Misc Settings tab (note this is just a stick joystick with no ffb)

Edited May 29, 2024 by Baldrick33

[FusRoPotato]

Yeah the response in the non-FFB stick returning to center is extreme. Notice I'm hardly even pulling up to 0.5 positive on the stick (on the blue line), but when I release it to center, it bounces down to less than -0.5. That's further into the forward position than it was originally held back. I'm not buying the idea that was reviewed by any SME. That is literally throwing the stick and letting go of it, like they programmed a dampening force that diminishes at the center letting it whip right through with 100% of its momentum.

 

[Maksim Savelev]

@FusRoPotatoI don't think that there is a space left for guessing what is exactly happening. They did exactly what I explained in my video in details. Either I'm really bad at explaining complex things or it wasn't interesting to watch. But could be both))! They have modeled the system itself  that way that the "force center" or "balanced trim" position represented as a small green diamond moves and works as designed according to schematic. That means if motors of your FFB device are powerful enough your stick will always move with this small green diamond if you're not holding it.  just put your aircraft vertically  let go of stick and see how the magic happens. All of your force inputs are measured from this start position. When your hold your stick firmly in one place and at the beginning all of the diamonds are align,  but due to speed or G changes small green diamond shifts away you will feel the force proportional to this displacement. The same way  it will work in a real aircraft, despite the thing that self dampening of the system will be more pronounced. So the only time you can feel force or tension when this small green diamond "balanced" trim position is not aligned with you FFB stick. Problem is, that they left everything to be working exact way but for the non FFB joystick which is unable to move and its physical center always one place. But HB wanted to keep theirs simulation anyway. The only way to do it for non FFB joystick is to give you an authority of the displacement from "balanced" trim position. So simulation of the center is jumping back and forth, based on schematic and you can only make an adjustment on top of it. What brakes the control system completely. Well I've tried my best to explain. Please process it carefully and I believe you will get it easily, because as I've seen from the graphs you're capable to pull out, you're way smarter than me)).

Edited May 29, 2024 by Maksim Savelev

[Maksim Savelev]

Oh and that's really important one and hard for me to explain, but here it is. In first example with FFB and real airplane this difference between your stick big green diamond and "trimmed center position" small green diamond is just a math expression of how much force you need to apply to keep this displacement. And yet again displacement is just a calculated force required. There is no flexibility or physical displacement and that's why your orange diamond (3D stick and stabilator) is always stays align with the big green diamond (your FFB stick). And for the spring joystick they wanted you to have this Physical displacement as a representation of calculated force (math expression) because the only way you can feel a force on spring joystick is by displacing it from the center. And this causes decoupling. 

I believe I can't explain any better than this, sorry...

Everything else, the way how everything moves during and after decoupling or all of the oscillations after  joysticks inputs or without it is just a  consequences of such modeling.

Edited May 29, 2024 by Maksim Savelev

[Renko]

20 hours ago, kablamoman said:

My experience is not smooth. Did you watch the video all the way?

The oscillations in stab control resulting in pitch oscillations are quite apparent, as highlighted in @FusRoPotato’s first graph where he plotted the non-FFB stick response over the FFB stick.

Never said that you didnt have pitch oscilations, or me. By smooth i mean there are no spikes in the observed movement. Like a shaking motion within the oscilation.
Its similar to the diference of this random curves i googled. One has spikes in it, the other one is more smooth. But both represent same "movement" (yes, one is inverted. but you get it)

[kablamoman]

7 hours ago, Renko said:

Never said that you didnt have pitch oscilations, or me. By smooth i mean there are no spikes in the observed movement. Like a shaking motion within the oscilation.
Its similar to the diference of this random curves i googled. One has spikes in it, the other one is more smooth. But both represent same "movement" (yes, one is inverted. but you get it)

I see what you mean. Were you referencing maksim’s video on the ground when talking about spikes?

I think that’s just the surface noise simulation being used on the ground to simulate roughness (not sure if it’s all maps) — I know ED was running into a problem with their new tire physics where smaller tail wheels were interacting with it adversely resulting in some erratic responses (bunch of crazy bouncing as the mosquito tail wheel ran along the surface).

In the video it looked like it had a similar effect on the bobweight of the stick and it was going crazy in the absence of the bellows force or the limp pilot arm to balance or dampen its reaction.

Edited May 30, 2024 by kablamoman

[FusRoPotato]

Seems like they refuse to acknowledge there is an error or absence of their virtual pilot modeling. They must have put this topic on ignore assuming it was joystick modeling issue that doesn't exist, or that a white paper will somehow eventually excuse it. It won't, because it's a virtual pilot modelling error.

Moving the stick to center shouldn't cause the in-game stick to flop back and forth between -50% and +50% deflection. That is quite literally the pilot letting go of the stick. No F-4 pilot has ever described this kind of behavior before, and I know a few of them personally, because it's not real.

Edited August 9, 2024 by FusRoPotato

[Aero4000]

В 24.05.2024 в 23:10, IronMike сказал:

Please understand that what we cannot accept, is that folks want to tell us that the FM and stick input implementation is wrong, and to change it, after flying it for precisely 1 day or much less even in hours. and without having flown the real jet.

The reactions we get from SMEs (12 of them who flew the jet for thousands of combined hours and one of them who still flies it today) - are a destinct testimony to the opposite. The FM has been build based on heavily including their input, every step of the way. Again, whether you give it an open minded chance, or not, is up to you.

Fly it for a couple weeks, a month even - then tell us what you think. Of course that won't help much, if you never give it a real chance. If you are a real pilot, you will know that judging an FM and getting a good feel for it after a few hours of flight is not possible. I invited you to give it an honest try. You keep coming back with "no". After spending likely less than a full day with it. Please be so kind and understand that that won't just change our mind.

Don't get me wrong. I know where you are coming from. I felt very similar initially. And all I can say, I am so, so happy that I didn't convice Grover to go the classic route, as I initially wanted to, when I first tried it. I truly and fully know where you are coming from. But so many things that we were able to do that work as in the real aircraft, are made possible through this. And the rabbit hole goes deep. From bellow intakes freezing at high alt, to flipping backwards with pitch down stick in a clean tailslide to so many quirks and peculiarities in between, to just name a random few, which occur now naturally, most importantly - made it possible for us to take the FM to the next level, and we will continue improving on it, too. But you can't explore and experience it, if you don't give it an honest chance. I can only kindly invite you again to do so.

Hello. I followed your recommendations and flew for many, many hours with the Phantom. It has become my main module for all this time. My conclusions are as follows: I find it enjoyable most of the time of a normal flight. However, I would be happier if the pilot had a stronger grip on the stick at least during takeoff. And even better, it would be possible to fine-tune the "synchronicity" of a conventional joystick and stick in the cockpit. Now, in some stages of flight, flight control movements can be very disproportionate and therefore unnatural to the pilot (I am a pilot).

[Hunter2.1]

On 1/12/2025 at 12:20 PM, Aero4000 said:

Hello. I followed your recommendations and flew for many, many hours with the Phantom. It has become my main module for all this time. My conclusions are as follows: I find it enjoyable most of the time of a normal flight. However, I would be happier if the pilot had a stronger grip on the stick at least during takeoff. And even better, it would be possible to fine-tune the "synchronicity" of a conventional joystick and stick in the cockpit. Now, in some stages of flight, flight control movements can be very disproportionate and therefore unnatural to the pilot (I am a pilot).

 За время эксплуатации модуля не ушли вопросы, полностью поддерживаю твою пост. 
 

добавлю, что разработчики обещали сообщить в отдельном посте принцип моделирования нагрузки на ручку. 
прошло более полугода, ничего до сих пор с их стороны нет. 

1) По ощущениям именно на центральной позиции джойстика происходит виртуальное ослабление хвата ручки.

2) Почему пользователи FFBEAST которая имеет достаточные нагрузки на ручку чтобы симулировать стик ф-4, и где пользователи ее удерживают прямо, не останавливает 
игровую ручку от ослабления хвата?

3) почему пользовали FFB имеют преимущество в управлении, по причине того, что колебания ф-4 в FFB меньше чем у джойстиков без FFB мне тоже не понятно, и ответа нет до сих пор. 

4) что им мешает сделать нормального пилота который будет держать ручку всегда КАК РЕАЛЬНЫЙ ПИЛОТ? 

Edited January 15 by Hunter2.1

[BJ55]

@Aero4000 : have you tried with no axis deadzones in controls settings? I had the same sensations until I've set deadzone to 0 and curvature to 15, firmware deadzones are enough, now it's smooth and predictable. Deadzones caused near center lack of precision with other aircrafts too.

[Aero4000]

В 21.02.2025 в 18:56, BJ55 сказал:

@Aero4000 : have you tried with no axis deadzones in controls settings? I had the same sensations until I've set deadzone to 0 and curvature to 15, firmware deadzones are enough, now it's smooth and predictable. Deadzones caused near center lack of precision with other aircrafts too.

Yes, of course I use zero dead zones, since I switched to a very accurate VKB base. Unfortunately, this does not cancel the negative side effects of the "power" management principles using in the Phantom module. Just look at how the handle in the virtual cockpit moves, especially during take off run - the elevator exactly repeats all this.

The Phantom is a very cool module of the historically famous aircraft. Almost everything is perfect in it, except for the controls. It's a little sad for me.

Edited February 23 by Aero4000