AGM-45 Shrike Quick Guide by Klarsnow - updated June 5th 2024

[Mainstay]

On 6/14/2024 at 6:44 AM, PhantomHans said:

Just curious is the 45B going to be added officially at some point?

 

It seems to be less disappointing than the 45A in use.

Was wondering the same. Seems like a missile thats actually useful ingame.

AGM-45A

Engagement envelope

Propulsion

Single stage solid fuel rocket motor

Engine model

Rocketdyne Mk 38

Speed

Mach 2

Range

12 km

Up to 16 km from high altitude

AGM-45B

Engagement envelope

Propulsion

Single stage solid fuel rocket motor

Engine model

Hercules Mk 58 dual-thrust rocket motor

Speed

Mach 2

Range

40 km

 

The difference between 12 km and 40 is huge besides the ugraded warheads

[Darkline]

On 5/26/2024 at 1:31 PM, Northstar98 said:

What does SA-2 on its own refer to in the table?

The Shrike's Mk 25 being the only one that works against SA-2 (TR) (i.e. the Fan Song E) makes sense, but the Mk 22-Mk 24 doesn't because the Fan Song we have in DCS is the Fan Song E, which operates in the G band. Fan Songs that operate in the E/F band are the Fan Song A, B and F.

 

Speaking of which, it might be useful to have a threat guide in the manual for the radars in DCS, including their frequency and band where known. A list of what frequencies that correspond to what bands can be found here (you're after the new nomenclature). Though, I guess it also depends on how well DCS models it. The other thing is that some radar systems in DCS are actually a combination of radars which may operate on different bands (Straight Flush, Land Roll, Scrum Half and Hot Shot being primary examples).

Also, some radar systems comprise of multiple radars, such as the 1S91 [Straight Flush], whose 1S11 acquisition radar operates in the C band, but its 1S31 tracking/illumination radar operates in the I band. Meaning that the Mk 49 and Mk 49 Mod 1 would only work against the Straight Flush in its track/illuminate mode. The Mk 37 might work (purely looking at the band)

In any case, I'll list Eastern Bloc radars below and I'll bold what guidance section is appropriate, based on the frequency, which I'll write in bold.

At the moment, for the table in the fusing GUI.

• 1S91 [Straight Flush] is the acquisition, target tracking and illumination radar for the 2K12 Kub [SA-6 Gainful]
  • 1S11 acquisition radar operates in the C band. Mk 37 EDIT: This one actually has contradictory information, while this says C band, this says G band. If it's the former, the Mk 37 is accurate, if it's the latter the Mk 22, Mk 25, Mk 50 is accurate. Neither cite anything though and there's a non-zero chance the former could be mixing nomenclature (the C band in old nomenclature is G band in the new one).
  • 1S31 track/fire-control radar operates in the I band. Mk 36, Mk 49 As above, while this says I band, this says H band if the latter is correct, it means the Mk 49 (either mod) or the Mk 50 is accurate.
• SON-9 [Fire Can] is a fire-control radar for AZP S-60 and KS-19 AAA batteries. It operates between 2.7 and 2.86 GHz (E band) Mk 23, Mk 24
• SNR-75 [Fan Song] is the fire-control radar for the SA-2. In DCS we have the Fan Song E, which operates in the G band, at around 5 GHz. Mk 22, Mk 25, Mk 50 (Edit 3 - this appears to be the case in DCS).
• SNR-125 [Low Blow] is the fire-control radar for the SA-3. This operates at around 9 GHz, in the I band. Mk 36, Mk 49
• The P-15 Danube [Flat Face A] is an acquisition radar mostly associated with the SA-3 (though is also used as a general purpose search radar, particularly for the Army), in DCS we have the updated P-19 [Flat Face B], which operates in the C band, at 0.83 - 0.88 GHz. Mk 37
• The P-35 [Bar Lock] is primarily an EWR/GCI radar, which operates in the E/F band. Unfortunately, it doesn't exist in DCS (though given how prolific and how well it fits in with our maps and aircraft and the fact we have an appropriate model for it, it really should). Mk 23, Mk 24, Mk 50

As for other Eastern Bloc SAMs and radars:

• 2K22 Tunguska (2S6) [SA-19 Grison]:
  • 1RL144 [Hot Shot]:
    • Acquisition radar operates in the E/F band. Mk 23, Mk 24, Mk 50
    • Track/Fire-control radar operates in the I/J band. Mk 36, Mk 49 - Note, wiki (citing C:MO) describes this as a J band system, which would put it beyond any of the shrike guidance sections.
• 9K33 Osa [SA-8 Gecko] - Land Roll (unknown native deignation)
  • Acquisition radar operates at about 7.5 GHz, which is in the H band. Mk 36, Mk 49, Mk 50
  • Track/Fire-control radar operates at 15 GHz, which is in the J band. None of the Shrike guidance sections can target this.
• 9K35M3 Strela-10M3 [SA-13 Gopher] This one is quite difficult as some sources refer to its radar as Hat Box or 9S86 [Snap Shot]. The latter allegedly operates in the mmW range which is in the K to O bands (30 - 300 GHz), which is beyond what any of the guidance sections can target.
• 9K37M1 Buk-M1 [SA-11 Gadfly]
  • 9S18M1 [Snow Drift] SR operates in the F band. Mk 23, Mk 24, Mk 50
  • 9S35 [Fire Dome] tracking/illumination radar operates in the I/J band. Mk 36, Mk 49
• 9K330 Tor [SA-15 Gauntlet] - Scrum Half (unknown native designation):
  • Acquisition radar operates in the E/F band. Mk 23, Mk 24
  • Engagement radar operates in the G band. Mk 22, Mk 25, Mk 50
• S-200V Vega [SA-5B Gammon]
  • 5N62V [Square Pair] FCR operates at 6.6 GHz, in the H band. Mk 49, Mk 50
  • At the moment the P-19 and 5N59S are used in DCS (though neither are accurate). The actual acquisition radar used for the S-200 is the 5N84A (P-14F) Oborona-14 [Tall King C], which operates in the A band, below the range of the Shrike.
• S-300PS [SA-10B Grumble]:
  • 5N59S [Tin Shield B] SR operates in the E/F band (2.85 - 3.2 GHz). Mk 23, Mk 24, Mk 50
  • 5N63S [Flap Lid B] FCR operates in the I/J band. Mk 36, Mk 49
  • 5N64S [Big Bird B] SR operates in the E band. Mk 23, Mk 24, Mk 50
  • 5N66M [Clam Shell] SR - this one has contradictory information, this says it operates in the I band but this says it operates in the E/F band. Mk 36, Mk 49 for the I band, Mk 23, Mk 24, Mk 50 for the E/F band.

EDIT: Forgot the ZSU-23-4, its RPK-2 (1RL33) [Gun Dish] operates at around 15 GHz, in the J band. This is above all of the Shrike's guidance sections - none of them should be able to target it. I also forgot the 1L13 and 55G6, but both operate well below any of the Shrike's guidance sections can target (A/B band).

EDIT 2: I also forgot the 9S80M1 (PPRU-M1) [Dog Ear] - sorry everyone. That radar is commonly associated with shorter-ranged army systems like the SA-8, -9, -13, -15 and -19 and operates in the H/I band. Mk 36, Mk 49, Mk 50

I haven't extensively tested this however and I am just going by radar band. For later systems (e.g SA-1x, I would assume the later seekers would be better equipped for them, but I'm not sure when which was introduced).

EDIT 3: You can check the exact frequency that our radars are defined with, by checking the .lua definition for the unit, which can be found here - if you Ctrl+F for "Frequencies" it should take you to the appropriate line, note that the values appear to be in Hz.

As an example, here's the .lua for the SNR-75V of the S-75V, on line 81 you can see the frequencies defined range from 4.91×10⁹ - 5.09×10⁹ Hz (i.e. 4910 - 5090 MHz or 4.91 - 5.09 GHz), which is indeed in the G band as it should be and matches this). See this table for a list of what frequencies correspond to what bands (you're looking for new nomenclature).

Note that some units appear to have this undefined, the 9K35M3 Strela-10M3 [SA-13 Gopher] is one such example, some ships also don't have this defined (though some do).

 

This right here is exceptional

[TacticalOni]

On 6/22/2024 at 11:43 AM, Mainstay said:

The difference between 12 km and 40 is huge besides the ugraded warheads

It's also huge because you can still close in and the missile will carry more energy to the target, which I feel like would add to the PK. Upgraded warheads would obviously be a boon for that as well

 

[Aero4000]

The current version of the Shrike can be very effective against the SA-3.

 

[primus_TR]

6 hours ago, Aero4000 said:

The current version of the Shrike can be very effective against the SA-3.

 

Nice. I noticed that you used direct attack logic (seeker head), not loft. Am I correct? 

[SgtPappy]

10 hours ago, Aero4000 said:

The current version of the Shrike can be very effective against the SA-3.

 

I've also found a lot of success vs the SA-8 using the 49 mod 1 loft seeker in direct mode as long as I fire from above 10,000' and even around 8 nm.

Almost every shot hits. It takes 3 Shrikes to kill it though (yes, I know SEAD vs DEAD etc but it was fun to try).

The SA-6... not so much. I might just use Mavs and a jammer for that.

As an aside, does anyone also have the issue/feature where your Mavs are fully warmed up but if you switch to Shrikes and back to Mavs, the Mavs have to warm up all over again? Is this by design?

Edited June 24, 2024 by SgtPappy

[Aero4000]

5 часов назад, primus_TR сказал:

Nice. I noticed that you used direct attack logic (seeker head), not loft. Am I correct? 

WRCS AGM-45 mode. Following procedures from the first page of this topic.

[Northstar98]

17 hours ago, Darkline said:

This right here is exceptional

Thank you, though FWIW I haven't yet gone through all the radars in DCS and see which have frequencies assigned to them and what those frequencies are.

I also haven't tested whether or not the guidance sections I've listed for whichever radar actually work against that radar. I've only laid out which radars belong to what band and which guidance sections correspond to those bands. At the moment I'm only testing with AI aircraft.

Edited June 24, 2024 by Northstar98

[primus_TR]

4 hours ago, Aero4000 said:

WRCS AGM-45 mode. Following procedures from the first page of this topic.

Yes I understand that you used the WRCS AGM-45 mode. I was referring to the selection of Loft/Direct logic when choosing the seeker head for the Shrike missile in the mission editor/mission loadout screen. Because it seemed to me that the missile was active (fins flapping) above 18000 ft altitude. 

[Aero4000]

2 минуты назад, primus_TR сказал:

Yes I understand that you used the WRCS AGM-45 mode. I was referring to the selection of Loft/Direct logic when choosing the seeker head for the Shrike missile in the mission editor/mission loadout screen. Because it seemed to me that the missile was active (fins flapping) above 18000 ft altitude. 

Yes, you are absolutely right! I tried to use the Loft logic in the editor, but every time I got a significant missile over-flight in the same conditions of mission scenario.

[TacticalOni]

Hey Yall, I've been sharing this where I can, might as well throw it in here, but so far it seems the Mk49 Mod 1 missile is essentially universal, I've got it to track SA-2, 3, 6, 8, 10, and 11s fairly reliably, for killing fire cans I haven't tried yet but the Mk49/1 seems to take the cake for angriest shrike seeker head. 

Edited June 25, 2024 by TacticalOni

[Northstar98]

Right I've gone through all the respective .luas for the various units to find what frequencies they're actually defined with in DCS and so determine guidance sections can hypothetically engage radars operating within that range.

Note that some radars are able to operate below or above the guidance sections listed (for instance, if the AN/MPQ-50 IPAR were to operating below 0.8 GHz, it won't be targetable by the Mk 37 or any other guidance section). I'm not sure how DCS handles it - whether anything in the range is valid, whether it picks a frequency within the range and goes with that, I don't know, though if it's the latter it might explain why some guidance sections work but not others (particularly in the case of the 1S11 - the radar in DCS ranges from the G to H band, the Mk 22 and 25 target the former, but the Mk 49s target the latter, if DCS is picking the G band to transmit on, that would explain why the -22 and -25 work but the -49 does not).

In many cases, we're also talking about radars that the Shrike wasn't intended to engage (though note that doesn't mean it definitely can't engage them, just don't treat this table as a confirmation that it can). I haven't been able to actually test which are compatible.

The list of .luas can be found here, you can usually find entries for at least "SearchRadarFrequencies" and for some units with separate acquisition and track/fire-control/illumination radars there's additionally a line for "frequencyRange".

Guidance sections marked in green are ones I've confirmed that will track the radar indicated, and I'll mark in orange those that don't. Currently I'm testing Shrikes fired by an AI F-4E (unfortunately I'm unable to test as a player at the moment), if anybody has tested differently please chime in and I'll make an addendum to the results:

Radar:	Associated System(s) Within DCS:	Frequency Range /GHz	Radar Band(s) (NATO):	Guidance Sections Corresponding to Frequency Range:	Notes:
USSR/Russia:
1L13 [Box Spring]		0.18 - 0.22	A	None
1RL144 [Hot Shot] (acquisition)	2K22 Tunguska (2S6) [SA-19 Grison]	2 - 3	E	Mk 23, Mk 24 Mod 5, Mk 24 Mod 34, Mk 50
1RL144 [Hot Shot] (track/fire-control)	2K22 Tunguska (2S6) [SA-19 Grison]	10 - 20	J	None
1S11 - 1S91M3 [Straight Flush] (acquisition)	2K12M3 Kub-M3 [SA-6B Gainful]	4 - 8	G - H	Mk 22, Mk 25, Mk 49 Mod 0, Mk 49 Mod 1, Mk 50	Sources contradict (C band or G band), exact version DCS is trying to recreate unknown
1S31 - 1S91M3 [Straight Flush] (track/illumination)	2K12M3 Kub-M3 [SA-6B Gainful]	8 - 10	I	Mk 36, Mk 49 Mod 0, Mk 49 Mod 1	Sources contradict (H band or I band), exact version DCS is trying to recreate unknown
55G6 [Tall Rack]		0.03 - 0.3	A - B	None
5N59S [Tin Shield-B]	*S-200M/VE Vega-M/E [SA-5B Gammon], S-300PS [SA-10B Grumble]	2.85 - 3.82	E - F	Mk 23, Mk 24 Mod 5, Mk 24 Mod 34, Mk 50	*IRL isn't associated with any version of the SA-5 (EWR or SA-10 acquisition radar)
5N62V [Square Pair]	S-200M/VE Vega-M/E [SA-5B Gammon]	1.55 - 3.9	D - F	Mk 23, Mk 24 Mod 5, Mk 24 Mod 34, Mk 50	Possibly incorrect - most sources state this operates in the H band, centered around 6.66 GHz.
5N63S [Flap Lid-B]	S-300PS [SA-10B Grumble]	8 - 20	I - J	Mk 36, Mk 49 Mod 0, Mk 49 Mod 1
5N64S [Big Bird-B]	S-300PS [SA-10B Grumble]	2.9 - 3.3	E - F	Mk 23, Mk 24 Mod 5, Mk 24 Mod 34, Mk 50
5N66M [Clam Shell]	S-300PS [SA-10B Grumble]	8 - 10	I	Mk 36, Mk 49 Mod 0, Mk 49 Mod 1	Sources contradict each other (either E/F band or I band)
9S18M1 [Snow Drift]	9K37M1 Buk-M1 [SA-11 Gadfly]	6 - 10	H - I	Mk 36, Mk 49 Mod 0, Mk 49 Mod 1
9S35M1 [Fire Dome]	9K37M1 Buk-M1 [SA-11 Gadfly]	6 - 10	H - I	Mk 36, Mk 49 Mod 0, Mk 49 Mod 1
9S80M1 Sborka-M1 (PPRU-M1) [Dog Ear]	Various short-range PVO-SV systems (SA-8, SA-9, SA-13, SA-15, 2S6/SA-19, ZSU-23-4)	3 - 6	F - G	Mk 22, Mk 23, Mk 24 Mod 5, Mk 24 Mod 34, Mk 25, Mk 50
9S86 [Snap Shot]	9K35M3 Strela-10M3 [SA-13 Gopher]	Undefined	Undefined	None	Supposedly millimetric band (K band/30 GHz or above)
P-19 Dunay [Flat Face-B]	*S-75V Volhov [SA-2E Guideline Mod 3], S-125M Neva-M [SA-3B Goa], *S-200M/VE Vega-M/E	0.83 - 0.882	C	Mk 37	*IRL isn't associated with either the SA-2 or the SA-5.
RD-75 Amazonka	S-75V Volhov [SA-2E Guideline Mod 3]	Undefined	Undefined
RPK-2 (1RL33) [Gun Dish]	ZSU-23-4 Shilka	20 - 30	K	None	Incorrect - actually operates in the J band, centered around 15 GHz.
SON-9 [Fire Can]	AZP S-60, KS-19	2.7 - 2.9	E	Mk 23, Mk 24 Mod 5, Mk 24 Mod 34, Mk 50	Cannot get the AI to engage this radar
SNR-75V [Fan Song-E]	S-75V Volhov [SA-2E Guideline Mod 3]	4.91 - 5.09	G	Mk 22, Mk 25, Mk 50	Mk 49 Mod 0 and Mk 49 Mod 1 appear to work (when they shouldn't)
SNR-125M [Low Blow]	S-125M Neva-M [SA-3B Goa]	9 - 9.4	I	Mk 36, Mk 49 Mod 0, Mk 49 Mod 1
1S51M3 [Land Roll] (Acquisition)	9K33M3 Osa-AKM [SA-8B Gecko Mod 1]	6 - 8	H	Mk 36, Mk 49 Mod 0, Mk 49 Mod 1	Exact version DCS is trying to recreate unknown
1S51M3 [Land Roll] (Track/Fire-Control)	9K33M3 Osa-AKM [SA-8B Gecko Mod 1]	14.2 - 14.8	J	None	Exact version DCS is trying to recreate unknown
[Scrum Half]	9K330 Tor [SA-15A Gauntlet]	4 - 8	G - H	Mk 22, Mk 25, Mk 49 Mod 0, Mk 49 Mod 1, Mk 50	For both acquisition and track/fire-control radars
PRC:
Type 345	HQ-7B (FM-90) [CSA-7 Sino-Crotale]	10 - 20	J	None
HQ-7B ACU	HQ-7B (FM-90) [CSA-7 Sino-Crotale]	6 - 10	I	Mk 36, Mk 49 Mod 0, Mk 49 Mod 1	Known as HQ-7 Self-Propelled STR in DCS
NATO:
AN/FPS-117		1.215 - 1.4	D	None
AN/MPQ-46 IHIPIR	I-HAWK PIP Phase 1	8 - 12	I - J	Mk 36, Mk 49 Mod 0, Mk 49 Mod 1	As of DCS 2.9.7.58923 the AI no longer engages with the Mk 36.
AN/MPQ-50 IPAR	I-HAWK PIP Phase 1	0.5 - 1	C	Mk 37
AN/MPQ-53 RS	Patriot PAC-2	4.48 - 5.45	G	Mk 22, Mk 25, Mk 50
AN/MPQ-55 ICWAR	I-HAWK PIP Phase 1	10 - 20	J	None
AN/MPQ-64F1 Sentinel	NASAMS II	8 - 12	I - J	Mk 36, Mk 49 Mod 0, Mk 49 Mod 1	Cannot get the AI to engage this radar
AN/VPS-2	M163 VADS	Undefined	Undefined	None	Should operate in the J band (10 - 20 GHz)
Domino 3D (Track/Fire-Control)	FlaRakRad Roland 2	8 - 12	I - J	Mk 36, Mk 49 Mod 0, Mk 49 Mod 1	Known as SAM Roland ADS in DCS
DN 181 Blindfire FSA	Rapier FSA	10 - 20	J	None
Flakpanzer Gepard Track/Fire-Control	Flakpanzer Gepard	10 - 20	J	None
MPDR-12 (Acquisition)	Flakpanzer Gepard	2 - 3	E	Mk 23, Mk 24 Mod 5, Mk 24 Mod 34, Mk 50
MPDR-16 (Acquisition)	FlaRakRad Roland 2	1 - 2	D	None	Known as SAM Roland ADS in DCS
Phalanx Block 1B Acquisition	LPWS (Centurion C-RAM)	12 - 18	J	None
Radarpanzer TÜR	FlaRakRad Roland 2	1 - 2	D	None	Known as SAM Roland EWR in DCS
Rapier Acquisition Radar	Rapier (Initial), Rapier FSA	Undefined	Undefined		Possibly operates in the E band (2 - 3 GHz)?

 

I'll list the guidance sections and their respective frequency ranges and bands in the spoiler below, for future reference:

Spoiler

Guidance Section:	Frequency Range /GHz:	Radar Band(s) (NATO):	Intended Target Radars:
Mk 22	4.8 - 5.2	G	Fan Song-C/E
Mk 23	2 - 4	E - F	Fan Song-A/B/F, Fire Can
Mk 24 Mod 5	2.65 - 3.15	E - F	Fan Song-A/B/F, Bar Lock
Mk 24 Mod 34	2.5 - 3.5	E - F	Fan Song-A/B/F, Bar Lock
Mk 25	4 - 6	G	Fan Song-C/E
Mk 36	7.9 - 9.6	H - I	Low Blow
Mk 37	0.8 - 1	C	Flat Face-A/B
Mk 49 Mod 0	6 - 10	H - I	Low Blow, Straight Flush
Mk 49 Mod 1	6 - 10	H - I	Low Blow, Straight Flush
Mk 50	2 - 6	E-G	Various

 

Edited November 1, 2024 by Northstar98
Reformatted radar bands column

[Northstar98]

23 hours ago, TacticalOni said:

Hey Yall, I've been sharing this where I can, might as well throw it in here, but so far it seems the Mk49 Mod 1 missile is essentially universal, I've got it to track SA-2, 3, 5, 8, 10, and 11s fairly reliably, for killing fire cans I haven't tried yet but the Mk49/1 seems to take the cake for angriest shrike seeker head. 

Seems odd that it would engage the SA-2 (presumably you're talking about the Fan Song-E) as that radar operates at almost an entire GHz below what the Mk 49 (either mod) should be able to engage. The SA-5 in the .lua (Square Pair) is also defined to be lower than what the Mk 49 should be able to target (though that might be incorrect and most online sources say this operates at 6.66 GHz, in the H band, where the Mk 49 should theoretically be able to target).

Edited June 25, 2024 by Northstar98

[TacticalOni]

6 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

Seems odd that it would engage the SA-2 (presumably you're talking about the Fan Song-E) as that radar operates almost an entire GHz below what the Mk 49 (either mod) should be able to engage. The SA-5 in the .lua (Square Pair) is also defined to be lower than what the Mk 49 should be able to target (though that might be incorrect and most online sources say this operates at 6.66 GHz, in the H band, where the Mk 49 should theoretically be able to target).

I've been dealing with folks telling me "it shouldn't work" for the last couple days, all I know is that it guided, but without tone, on an SA-2 that was tracking and firing at me.
Actually I haven't tested against an SA-5, that was a typo on my part I meant to say SA-6, fat fingers. But the rest I can vouch for. The 49/1 seeker doesn't tone on every set, I think the SA-11 and SA-2 don't tone, but its guided on all of them. 

Also, as an aside, I've had a Mk23 track on a SON-9 Firecan, just not from a loft attack profile, I've only had direct hits firing the missile with a direct seeker head from just a couple nm from the emitter at a fairly lethal height, well within range for both 100mm and 57mm guns to potentially smack me around

Edited June 25, 2024 by TacticalOni

[Northstar98]

5 minutes ago, TacticalOni said:

I've been dealing with folks telling me "it shouldn't work" for the last couple days, all I know is that it guided, but without tone, on an SA-2 that was tracking and firing at me.

Sounds like a bug in that case, the Fan Song-E tops out at 5.09 GHz (and that's both online sources and in the DCS .lua definition for it). The Mk 49 Mod 0 and Mk 49 Mod 1 start from 6 GHz.

Ironically in my testing with the AI none of the expected seekers appeared to track the Fan Song-E (nor did the Mk 49), nor the Flap Lid, nor the Square Pair.

I couldn't get the AI to engage the Fire Can at all so I couldn't test that one.

[TacticalOni]

6 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

Sounds like a bug in that case, the Fan Song-E tops out at 5.09 GHz (and that's both online sources and in the DCS .lua definition for it). The Mk 49 Mod 0 and Mk 49 Mod 1 start from 6 GHz.

Ironically in my testing with the AI none of the expected seekers appeared to track the Fan Song-E (nor did the Mk 49), nor the Flap Lid, nor the Square Pair.

I couldn't get the AI to engage the Fire Can at all so I couldn't test that one.

I can't say I've gone too into the weeds on bands and everything else except I read somewhere in this thread that the Fansong-E does work in the G-band, and that the 49/1 has a G-bias, I figured "why not, I'll try it, I've done dumber stuff on shakier reasoning." 
Set up the SA-2 template in my test mission, flew at about 1-2k feet, let it grab me and start shooting, foxed the guidelines coming at me, and while he was still tracking, lofted the shrike at as close to max range as the WRCS AGM-45 lofting cues would let me, imagine my surprise when it started bang-banging on the SNR-75 and hit it dead on. 

Edited June 25, 2024 by TacticalOni

[Northstar98]

14 hours ago, TacticalOni said:

I can't say I've gone too into the weeds on bands and everything else except I read somewhere in this thread that the Fansong-E does work in the G-band, and that the 49/1 has a G-bias

G bias I understand to be gravity bias, not biased towards the G band.

It's essentially a trajectory shaping thing that better compensates for gravity, such that the missile doesn't pitch down due to it.

In practice this means that you should see the Mk 49 Mod 1 aim slightly higher and generally be more accurate compared to other seekers (and this appears to be the case in DCS - see the 2 tracks, the mod 1 aims higher than the mod 0 and as a result is more accurate).

14 hours ago, TacticalOni said:

Set up the SA-2 template in my test mission, flew at about 1-2k feet, let it grab me and start shooting, foxed the guidelines coming at me, and while he was still tracking, lofted the shrike at as close to max range as the WRCS AGM-45 lofting cues would let me, imagine my surprise when it started bang-banging on the SNR-75 and hit it dead on.

Interesting. Though personally I'm still on the side of bug.

I just tested again, it seems that the FCR merely aiming at you (which should convey that it's at least in acquisition) doesn't mean the Shrike can guide - it's only once missiles have been ready does it fire. I can now get Mk 49 Mod 0 and Mod 1 to track the Fan Song-E, though this is probably a bug. I will correct the above table though as it looks like I wasn't giving the radar enough time to actually actually start tracking the target and so provide something for the Shrike to guide on (though that might be questionable in and of itself).

AGM-45A_Mk49-0_SNR-75V.trk AGM-45A_Mk49-1_SNR-75V.trk

Edited June 26, 2024 by Northstar98
clarity

[TacticalOni]

1 hour ago, Northstar98 said:

Interesting. Though personally I'm still on the side of bug.

its absolutely a bug, but at least its a bug that lets me kill just about every emitter with one missile thats surprisingly not the Mk50 

 

1 hour ago, Northstar98 said:

G bias I understand to be gravity bias, not biased towards the G band.

It's essentially a trajectory shaping thing that better compensates for gravity, such that the missile doesn't pitch down due to it.

In practice this means that you should see the Mk 49 Mod 1 aim slightly higher and generally be more accurate compared to other seekers (and this appears to be the case in DCS - see the 2 tracks, the mod 1 aims higher than the mod 0 and as a result is more accurate).

that does make more sense upon reading your description, though one can admit that a seeker that works in the H-I range having a "G-bias" one could conceive the seeker might be tuned to look lower in the bandwidth, but that's a pretty big assumption.

I like the Shrike, it puts the fun back in SEAD for me, I can only hope that maybe in the next patch or two ED can work out what these missiles are supposed to do according to what they say it should do, then the testing process begins all over again

[SgtPappy]

4 hours ago, Xtorris said:

Testing conditions:

Active pause

Aircraft speed Mach 1.2

6000 Feet AGL

Delivery mode: Direct

Weapon Selector Knob: ARM

Distance to target: 6NM

 

I may have a dumb question but do you also use the direct seeker head when arming/in the mission editor? I assume yes because I discovered I had been attacking an SA-6 with the mk 49 mod0/1 with loft seeker and my shrikes never hit.

Weirdly enough, the Mk 49 mod 1 loft head hit the SA-8 in direct mode every single time.

[Hobel]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb SgtPappy:

I may have a dumb question but do you also use the direct seeker head when arming/in the mission editor? I assume yes because I discovered I had been attacking an SA-6 with the mk 49 mod0/1 with loft seeker and my shrikes never hit.

Weirdly enough, the Mk 49 mod 1 loft head hit the SA-8 in direct mode every single time.

i would recommend only using direct mode with the current implementation, it is in principle better even with lofts.

 

as shown here the controls of the shrike is very limited and if the launch is not optimal the shrike/loft misses. 

the direct mode has much more margin for error, and is better in almost every situation

 

[Roosterfeet]

Are Shrikes currently working in WRCS AGM-45 mode with Loft fuses? I've had success with Direct mode and direct fuses but I haven't been able to get a shrike fired in WRCS AGM-45 mode with loft fuses to track. Just want to know if it's user error before I continue to troubleshoot.

Edited July 1, 2024 by Roosterfeet

[primus_TR]

Unfortunately,  it is much safer and more effective at this time to use a low altitude (>500ft),  high speed strike with mk20s than to use shrikes to attack sam sites.  Even when defended by AAA, a fast (<500 kts tas) run in with a salvo of 12 mk20s assures great results with barely a scratch on the phantom. I prefer popping up to 2000 ft agl about 7 miles out and using DT for delivery,  as laydown requires a very precise profile, which is not very easy to attain in this setting. The key is remaining very low until pop up at about 5 miles out so as not to alert the defenders to your presence until the last moment. 

[MBot]

5 hours ago, primus_TR said:

Unfortunately,  it is much safer and more effective at this time to use a low altitude (>500ft),  high speed strike with mk20s than to use shrikes to attack sam sites.  Even when defended by AAA, a fast (<500 kts tas) run in with a salvo of 12 mk20s assures great results with barely a scratch on the phantom. I prefer popping up to 2000 ft agl about 7 miles out and using DT for delivery,  as laydown requires a very precise profile, which is not very easy to attain in this setting. The key is remaining very low until pop up at about 5 miles out so as not to alert the defenders to your presence until the last moment. 

I feel similar. After having testing it for a while now, I fail to find the tactical use for the Shrike. At medium-high altitude it lacks the range to go head-to-head with radar SAMs. It requires terrain masking to close to the target. But when doing so, you might as well just perform a pop-up bombing attack with Rockeyes. This is reliably doable against contemporary radar SAM systems (30-60s reaction time) and much more effective than Shrike. Alternatively, Maverick offers a similar stand-off capability as Shrike while having a much higher kill-probability.

Also it is not like Shrike could visually guide you to a SAM site of unknown location. With a boost phase of just 1 second or so there is no way to visually follow the missile to a target.

[Hobel]

vor 47 Minuten schrieb MBot:

I feel similar. After having testing it for a while now, I fail to find the tactical use for the Shrike. At medium-high altitude it lacks the range to go head-to-head with radar SAMs. It requires terrain masking to close to the target. But when doing so, you might as well just perform a pop-up bombing attack with Rockeyes. This is reliably doable against contemporary radar SAM systems (30-60s reaction time) and much more effective than Shrike. Alternatively, Maverick offers a similar stand-off capability as Shrike while having a much higher kill-probability.

Also it is not like Shrike could visually guide you to a SAM site of unknown location. With a boost phase of just 1 second or so there is no way to visually follow the missile to a target.

Do you have tracks of your situations? And which Sam is it exactly?   Used correctly, the Shrike-45 is a very good weapon.

[MBot]

1 hour ago, Hobel said:

Do you have tracks of your situations? And which Sam is it exactly?   Used correctly, the Shrike-45 is a very good weapon.

Well the problem is not that I can't get it to work. The question is rather if Shrike is better or worse than the other tactical options you have.

I guess one specific use case is against tactical SAMs such as SA-8, where the launcher might be difficult to pick out amongst other nearby vehicles:

Here a SA-8 was baited to reveal itself by provoking a launch. The enemy lock is defeated by terrain masking, which also resets the SAMs reaction timer (time to reacquire and preparing a launch). This gives a comfortable 30+ seconds window for a pop up attack. The SA-8 is struck by two Shrike which disable but fail to destroy it.

The advantage of Shrike here is that you don't need to know which vehicle exactly is the SAM launcher. If the SAM is easily identifiable on the other hand (such as a SA-2/3/6 in typical formation), a Maverick is probably the better option as even a single missile will ensure a kill.