F4 Phantom ILS Question - How to?

[Darkrookie]

Hey All,

 

Loving the Phantom so far but one of my many questions is: How do I use the ILS system for instrument approaches? I've set up a training mission on Caucasus map, air start flying East toward Kutaisi. I have the volume on the VOR/ILS panel on the left turned up, it's tuned to 109.75 per the F10 map for that airfield (runway 07), and the Nav switches panel (forget it's exact name) set to VOR/TAC and the Flight Director on (horizontal) and turned to ILS. However, I get no ILS indications on the HSI or ADI. The VOR Beacon does work as I overfly the airfield, and the test button illuminates the Beacon Test Light so I have to assume I have the correct frequency set...

Is there a trick to get the ILS working? I've got to be missing something obvious but I haven't found anything online or in the manual (yes I've read the full Navigation section).

Any help is appreciated,

Darkrookie

Edited May 26, 2024 by Darkrookie

[IronMike]

5 hours ago, Darkrookie said:

Hey All,

 

Loving the Phantom so far but one of my many questions is: How do I use the ILS system for instrument approaches? I've set up a training mission on Caucasus map, air start flying East toward Kutaisi. I have the VOR/ILS panel on the left tuned to 109.75 per the F10 map for that airfield (runway 07), and the Nav panel (forget it's exact name) set to VOR/TAC and the Flight Director on (horizontal) and turned to ILS. However, I get no ILS indications on the HSI or ADI. The VOR Beacon does work as I overfly the airfield, and the test button illuminates the Beacon Test Light so I have to assume I have the correct frequency set...

Is there a trick to get the ILS working? I've got to be missing something obvious but I haven't found anything online or in the manual (yes I've read the full Navigation section).

Any help is appreciated,

Darkrookie

What readout do you expect? I just tried and it worked instantly.

For ILS you get two yellow needles in the ADI, and the course indicator needle on the HSI, you won't get range however, etc. You can see on the image below, tuned for 109.75, the yellow needles in the ADI, the course needle in the HSI, crossed out are the nav indications from the INS. Double check if you have the corect frequency tuned. You can see that it indicated below glidepath for me, because I am still 18 or so nm out, but the signal is already being received.

PS: you can preset the ILS frequency in the mission editor in the aircraft additional options tab, (same row as loadouts), which is the right most tab.

PPS: I just tried both manually tuning in flight and preset from ME, too, and both worked immediately. My guess is that you either have the wrong frequency tuned, or that you set the bearing selector knob (the left one) to VOR/TAC, instead of the mode selector knob (the right one) to VOR/ILS. Note that the right knob has the Flight Director engaged by the inner smaller knob, and the mode set by the outer, bigger knob. You can see in my image below that it is pointing to VOR/ILS. The left bearing selector knob is irrelevant for ILS.

PPPS: Don't forget that in DCS the course in the ME may be given in true (not sure if all maps and airports, but Kutaisi it is), so you need to substract the Magvar, which, if you have a modern date set, is 6.75 E. So with 074° you want to set 067(.5)° instead. This can vary depending on the date you are flying. You can bring up the Kneeboard and check for the Magvar, or check simply in the WSO seat, what Jester has set.

PPPPS: It's extra fun to fly the ILS from the WSO seat.

Edited May 27, 2024 by IronMike

[Darkrookie]

Hi IronMike,

 

Thanks for the reply. I expect it to look exactly like your screenshot shows, however I get neither the needles on the ADI, nor the indication on the HSI. The red "off" flags are showing on the ADI. I've checked a dozen times and I do have the correct frequency set (from both the mission editor and the cockpit directly). Volume/on knob on the VOR tune panel is all the way up. See my screenshots below, mirroring your settings but showing no ILS functionality.

 

 

 

Thank you,

Darkrookie

 

Edited May 27, 2024 by Darkrookie

[=475FG= Dawger]

1 hour ago, Darkrookie said:

Hey All,

 

Loving the Phantom so far but one of my many questions is: How do I use the ILS system for instrument approaches? I've set up a training mission on Caucasus map, air start flying East toward Kutaisi. I have the volume on the VOR/ILS panel on the left turned up, it's tuned to 109.75 per the F10 map for that airfield (runway 07), and the Nav switches panel (forget it's exact name) set to VOR/TAC and the Flight Director on (horizontal) and turned to ILS. However, I get no ILS indications on the HSI or ADI. The VOR Beacon does work as I overfly the airfield, and the test button illuminates the Beacon Test Light so I have to assume I have the correct frequency set...

Is there a trick to get the ILS working? I've got to be missing something obvious but I haven't found anything online or in the manual (yes I've read the full Navigation section).

Any help is appreciated,

Darkrookie

 

VOR/TAC is on the left knob on the Nav Function Select Panel, which controls the Bearing pointer source. You want the right knob, the Mode selector, on VOR/ILS for ILS to function 

[Darkrookie]

Thanks for the reply Dawger. My screenshot shows that I am in VOR/ILS mode on the right side knob already. The ADI still has no ILS indication. It has to be something else that I'm missing...

 

[Nealius]

Make sure wind speed is higher than 6kts and aligned down that runway. DCS in general has issues with ILS not being turned on unless the winds are specific directions and speeds, but it's particularly bad on Caucasus map for some reason.

Edited May 27, 2024 by Nealius

[Darkrookie]

Thanks for the suggestion Nealius. After my initial post I added an F-16C into the mission to test that aspect and confirmed ILS is working from the Airport side of things (flew ILS to touchdown with the F-16). Just not working in the Phantom for me. The ADI Flight Director works as expected when in NAV or TAC mode but shows the red "off" flags when the right side selector knob is set to VOR/ILS.

 

Just tested in the F-16C again with 10 knot and then 0 knot headwind. Worked fine in the F-16. Tested for the 10th time in the Phantom using the above settings...nothing.

 

Edit: Did another DCS restart and now all of a sudden it's working in the Phantom...I didn't change a single thing to my settings/F4 switchology etc...Sounds like it may be something internal to DCS that wasn't activating with the ILS for the airport for some reason.

 

Thanks for the help all. For now it remains a mystery to me why it wasn't working but hopefully that doesn't happen again.

Edited May 27, 2024 by Darkrookie

[IronMike]

16 minutes ago, Nealius said:

Make sure wind speed is higher than 6kts and aligned down that runway. DCS in general has issues with ILS not being turned on unless the winds are specific directions and speeds, but it's particularly bad on Caucasus map for some reason.

 

Good point, I completely forgot about that. Though I had zero wind in my mission and it worked.

6 minutes ago, Darkrookie said:

Thanks for the suggestion Nealius. After my initial post I added an F-16C into the mission to test that aspect and confirmed ILS is working from the Airport side of things (flew ILS to touchdown with the F-16). Just not working in the Phantom for me. The ADI Flight Director works as expected when in NAV or TAC mode but shows the red "off" flags when the right side selector knob is set to VOR/ILS.

 

Just tested in the F-16C again with 10 knot and then 0 knot headwind. Worked fine in the F-16. Tested for the 10th time in the Phantom using the above settings...nothing.

 

Edit: Did another DCS restart and now all of a sudden it's working in the Phantom...I didn't change a single thing to my settings/F4 switchology etc...Sounds like it may be something internal to DCS that wasn't activating with the ILS for the airport for some reason.

 

Thanks for the help all. For now it remains a mystery to me why it wasn't working but hopefully that doesn't happen again.

 

The red flags were indicating no signal, so it seems that indeed for some reason DCS did not give you the signal from the ILS. Another reason for red flags can be a failure in the AN/AJB-7. They will also appear when switching from PRIM back to STBY and PRIM again, until signal is re-acquired.

[Hawkeye_UK]

This is interesting as i had the same issue on the Syria map and came to the forums purely for this reason - never had an issue with ILS and its one of the things i normally test on any module early on.  I also had a failed capture on Sinai (although there are so many freqs missing on this map its not a good test map).

I will have to retest also (i know the weather was ok as the test mission that i use is always set up for ILS weather landings re wind).  I had the right dial set to VOR/ILS and also the Left dial to Vor/Tac. FD on and triple checked the ILS freq (as had set it in the ME) but also tried moving it manually up and back.  Also volume was turned up on the panel controlling the ILS/VOR channel (below throttle).

One thing i would add, ILS landings really should be added as a checklist in the manual, its not currently.  There is a section on this in the manual but being honest i thought it could have been better explained than it is currently, as a procedure.  Note also i have the dash one, but the manual copy that included in the HB manual i found really hard to make out the image.  To add i wouldnt normally go into the manual for setting up an ILS, as well they are pretty self explanatory normally in a western gen 3 jet, along with navigation, but having had 3 failed captures i did go back into it (i had read both this and the dash one a few times prior to release) and given i understand ILS approaches well, for a new player i think it could be explained alot better.

I think that part of the manual for navigation the left and right dial for the ADI and HSI settings needs to be reworked.

[IronMike]

8 minutes ago, Hawkeye_UK said:

This is interesting as i had the same issue on the Syria map and came to the forums purely for this reason - never had an issue with ILS and its one of the things i normally test on any module early on.  I also had a failed capture on Sinai (although there are so many freqs missing on this map its not a good test map).

I will have to retest also (i know the weather was ok as the test mission that i use is always set up for ILS weather landings re wind).  I had the right dial set to VOR/ILS and also the Left dial to Vor/Tac. FD on and triple checked the ILS freq (as had set it in the ME) but also tried moving it manually up and back.  Also volume was turned up on the panel controlling the ILS/VOR channel (below throttle).

One thing i would add, ILS landings really should be added as a checklist in the manual, its not currently.  There is a section on this in the manual but being honest i thought it could have been better explained than it is currently, as a procedure.  Note also i have the dash one, but the manual copy that included in the HB manual i found really hard to make out the image.  To add i wouldnt normally go into the manual for setting up an ILS, as well they are pretty self explanatory normally in a western gen 3 jet, along with navigation, but having had 3 failed captures i did go back into it (i had read both this and the dash one a few times prior to release) and given i understand ILS approaches well, for a new player i think it could be explained alot better.

I think that part of the manual for navigation the left and right dial for the ADI and HSI settings needs to be reworked.

Thank you for the kind feedback, we will look into it.

We will also check if there is not something wrong with our ILS. At what airport did you try to land on the Syria map?

[Hawkeye_UK]

21 minutes ago, IronMike said:

Thank you for the kind feedback, we will look into it.

We will also check if there is not something wrong with our ILS. At what airport did you try to land on the Syria map?

Incirlik 23 - i will check again, but literaly done 1000s of ILS approaches in DCS over the last decade so yea i was surprised to not capture.

The only difference on the setup that i had to your's was that i had the left hand dial on Vor/Tac also not nav comp, but the right dial was turned to VOR/ILS - i even turned it back on and off again and kept going around to recapture from around 10 miles out.  Wondering if having the left dial set to anything other than NAV/COMP is what is causing the issue.  

The only thing i would add is on the test mission i have alot of sound files loaded (also on multiple frequencies (note all 130-135 and now 270 - 274 for the F4 aux).

I'll retest on Syria but also on Sinai as want to create a list for the large amount of Nav freqencies missing.

PS - Congrat's on all the hard work - certainly paid off, really enjoying the F4.

Edited May 27, 2024 by Hawkeye_UK
to add PS

[Darkrookie]

I will also add that I tried my mission in daytime, nighttime, clear weather, AND whiteout conditions before posting initially (including headwinds/crosswinds over 6 kt). None worked...so there must be something that isn't triggering the ILS system to activate from the DCS client/airport side of things with regard to the Heatblur Phantom.

I also second Hawkeye's feedback about the manual and the ILS section. Overall it's a very good manual but there are a few minor things to flesh out still that I'm sure you guys will tackle as time permits. No major complaints from me...the Phantom is Phantastic.

Thanks

P.S. Now I just need to learn how to fight those AI Mig-21 UFOs...

Edited May 27, 2024 by Darkrookie

[Hawkeye_UK]

22 minutes ago, Darkrookie said:

I will also add that I tried my mission in daytime, nighttime, clear weather, AND whiteout conditions before posting initially (including headwinds/crosswinds over 6 kt). None worked...so there must be something that isn't triggering the ILS system to activate from the DCS client/airport side of things with regard to the Heatblur Phantom.

I also second Hawkeye's feedback about the manual and the ILS section. Overall it's a very good manual but there are a few minor things to flesh out still that I'm sure you guys will tackle as time permits. No major complaints from me...the Phantom is Phantastic.

Thanks

P.S. Now I just need to learn how to fight those AI Mig-21 UFOs...

 

Ok so just rebooted the game (in 2D this time i normally only fly VR) and opened the same mission and same slot as before airstart - ILS needles came straight on as soon as turned the right dial to ILS/VOR, left then cycled through and didnt matter.  

Im going to have to spend time to try and recreate why it wouldnt work - the only thing different thus far to previous attempts was i had been using VOR's to navigate prior to switching to the ILS.  Im wondering if something as part of the mission upto this point is then locking out the ILS.

Going to have to retest and sink some time into working out what was wrong, as im confident there is definately a bug (given i opened the same mission, same slot, same weather, eerything the same the only thing difference was moved the air start 200 miles to avoid the flight prior and straight to ILS - will report back if i can recreate.

 

[IronMike]

1 hour ago, Hawkeye_UK said:

Ok so just rebooted the game (in 2D this time i normally only fly VR) and opened the same mission and same slot as before airstart - ILS needles came straight on as soon as turned the right dial to ILS/VOR, left then cycled through and didnt matter.  

Im going to have to spend time to try and recreate why it wouldnt work - the only thing different thus far to previous attempts was i had been using VOR's to navigate prior to switching to the ILS.  Im wondering if something as part of the mission upto this point is then locking out the ILS.

Going to have to retest and sink some time into working out what was wrong, as im confident there is definately a bug (given i opened the same mission, same slot, same weather, eerything the same the only thing difference was moved the air start 200 miles to avoid the flight prior and straight to ILS - will report back if i can recreate.

 

Feel free to attach your mission, and we will take a look. Do you remember the airport?

EDIT: NVM you mentioned it above, somehow forums did not show your replies, when I replied, apologies.

Edited May 27, 2024 by IronMike

[Bailey]

Just a note: while the HSI provides correct lateral deviation from the ILS course despite an incorrect course input into the window (for the most part), the ADI steering bars require the correct magnetic course in the window for correct guidance.

[IronMike]

50 minutes ago, Bailey said:

Just a note: while the HSI provides correct lateral deviation from the ILS course despite an incorrect course input into the window (for the most part), the ADI steering bars require the correct magnetic course in the window for correct guidance.

Ah gosh, you're right, I actually said it the wrong way around above, heh. Edited, thank you.


I just tested with bearing selector in tac, vor/tac, etc worked. Gazipasa in Syria seems bugged, I only ever get the path deviation needle, but not slope indication. Incirlik works on my end. We will take a closer look, if the above ecountered issues are in our ILS, or something with DCS, etc.

Edited May 27, 2024 by IronMike

[Darkrookie]

Thanks IronMike. We appreciate your dedication and quick work taking a look at this.

[Hawkeye_UK]

On 5/27/2024 at 4:35 AM, IronMike said:

Feel free to attach your mission, and we will take a look. Do you remember the airport?

EDIT: NVM you mentioned it above, somehow forums did not show your replies, when I replied, apologies.

 

Mike i've been in and retested on the Incirlik approach on Syria using the 113.90 KHM vor station to the North East for Navigation on the way in. I have track files and the miz file which i will upload in due course once had time to timestamp the bits to look at.

But as an early heads up there are definite issues in the way the VOR stations do not always update and have to be cycled or do not capture them despite being within LOS and terms.

Also having multiple captures of ILS not work - cannot find what the cause is , sometimes it works (generally when you try and use it as the first nav point tuned, but after that it can become a lottery).  Given the VOR issues also i think its one of the same issue.

No mod's installed, clean install to test, new mission file (i created a new one knowing would need as simple as possible from my standard test miz file that has a2a spawn scripts etc).

Edit - So just to expand on this, i have had VOR stations that even tune but then as you fly past them at say 15000 feet they don't update or track.  Im just minded that while most people will be wanting to test weapon's etc the basics of nav can get missed.  

Files just uploaded - i need to add time commentary (working on now so expect re-edite of this message) but you should be able to see from where im looking what is going wrong in the cockpit.  Note these are not conentrating on flying onspeed or landing im purely interested in the nav beacon and the signal received.

 

HB ILS AND VOR BUGt Track file Comments - Why is the ED track replay so poor to be able to commentate on , timestamps cant rewind etc! 

Premise of the mission is to take routing via KHM on 113.90, switch for a TACAN Nav approach for initial Incirlik 23 prior to ILS Capture.  Both ILS freq and tacan 21X are set in the mission editor panel although you will see me manually tune the ILS post going to KHM.

Note 113.90 on the track tuned on the Vor panel, captures but then good example of it failing to track the beacon flying past it, only after multiple cycles of the mode selector to tac, nav computer and back does it recapture it behind the aircraft.  ILS caputured fine within parameters and landing.

Approach 2 same track file - You will note the repeated attempts to capture VOR KHM on 113.90, finally only getting it after repeated switching to INS nav and back to VOR mode.  Tracks VOR ok as passes by it, then start the TACAN approach on 21x, at 50 miles i get the system setup for an ILS approach on 111.70.  Not sure why the jester wheels then shows up, i certainly did not fly with it open, it was closed.  Intiail approach for ILS low but that aside at no point and despite being on the PAPI's for the later stage of the approach did the jet receive the ILS ADI directions for glidepath.

TRACK FILE 2 - HB ILS AND VOR BUG 2 - VOR station captured, however doesnt track overflight and point at beacon when passing.  On recycing nav mode back to VOR again requires and tracks on second pass of VOR.  Swtiched to then Tacan initial all ok.  Switch to ILS circa 10DME and no signal picked up, you can see the map position also as i check F10.  This is a better example of not capturing the ILS than approach 2 from track one.

Conclusion - VOR NAV and ILS is unreliable, i just cannot fathom out the lottery of why sometimes the VOR will track and other's it wont, whatever reason i think the VOR and ILS are related.  Are you sending out a polling time, its almost like the system isnt asking for an update or something IDK.  Hope this helps.

 

HB ILS AND VOR BUG 2 - Copy.trk HB ILS AND VOR BUGt - Copy.trk HB F4 ILS TEST TO FIND BUG - Copy.miz

Edited May 31, 2024 by Hawkeye_UK
Added files

[=475FG= Dawger]

Radio Nav in DCS is extremely unreliable. In the F-5 we were constantly cycling power to radios to try to get A/A or ground based TACAN to function. 
 

I was flying Caucasus in the Phantom and got good signal off Senaki and then ‘poof’, signal gone. 
 

My only point is I wouldn’t spend too much time chasing radio bugs until we are certain it isn’t DCS core causing the issues. 

[Hawkeye_UK]

2 hours ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

Radio Nav in DCS is extremely unreliable. In the F-5 we were constantly cycling power to radios to try to get A/A or ground based TACAN to function. 
 

I was flying Caucasus in the Phantom and got good signal off Senaki and then ‘poof’, signal gone. 
 

My only point is I wouldn’t spend too much time chasing radio bugs until we are certain it isn’t DCS core causing the issues. 

Not had any issues in the F1 on the Syria map as navigate by it alot.  Tacan is a bad example to compare to as that has its own separate issues.  This is purely talking about VOR/ILS.

[Bailey]

If I see something that may look funny concerning radio navigation, i hop in a comparable module to see if it happens there too. It's helped me understand how this module behaves. 

[IronMike]

7 hours ago, Hawkeye_UK said:

Mike i've been in and retested on the Incirlik approach on Syria using the 113.90 KHM vor station to the North East for Navigation on the way in. I have track files and the miz file which i will upload in due course once had time to timestamp the bits to look at.

But as an early heads up there are definite issues in the way the VOR stations do not always update and have to be cycled or do not capture them despite being within LOS and terms.

Also having multiple captures of ILS not work - cannot find what the cause is , sometimes it works (generally when you try and use it as the first nav point tuned, but after that it can become a lottery).  Given the VOR issues also i think its one of the same issue.

No mod's installed, clean install to test, new mission file (i created a new one knowing would need as simple as possible from my standard test miz file that has a2a spawn scripts etc).

Edit - So just to expand on this, i have had VOR stations that even tune but then as you fly past them at say 15000 feet they don't update or track.  Im just minded that while most people will be wanting to test weapon's etc the basics of nav can get missed.  

Files just uploaded - i need to add time commentary (working on now so expect re-edite of this message) but you should be able to see from where im looking what is going wrong in the cockpit.  Note these are not conentrating on flying onspeed or landing im purely interested in the nav beacon and the signal received.

 

HB ILS AND VOR BUGt Track file Comments - Why is the ED track replay so poor to be able to commentate on , timestamps cant rewind etc! 

Premise of the mission is to take routing via KHM on 113.90, switch for a TACAN Nav approach for initial Incirlik 23 prior to ILS Capture.  Both ILS freq and tacan 21X are set in the mission editor panel although you will see me manually tune the ILS post going to KHM.

Note 113.90 on the track tuned on the Vor panel, captures but then good example of it failing to track the beacon flying past it, only after multiple cycles of the mode selector to tac, nav computer and back does it recapture it behind the aircraft.  ILS caputured fine within parameters and landing.

Approach 2 same track file - You will note the repeated attempts to capture VOR KHM on 113.90, finally only getting it after repeated switching to INS nav and back to VOR mode.  Tracks VOR ok as passes by it, then start the TACAN approach on 21x, at 50 miles i get the system setup for an ILS approach on 111.70.  Not sure why the jester wheels then shows up, i certainly did not fly with it open, it was closed.  Intiail approach for ILS low but that aside at no point and despite being on the PAPI's for the later stage of the approach did the jet receive the ILS ADI directions for glidepath.

TRACK FILE 2 - HB ILS AND VOR BUG 2 - VOR station captured, however doesnt track overflight and point at beacon when passing.  On recycing nav mode back to VOR again requires and tracks on second pass of VOR.  Swtiched to then Tacan initial all ok.  Switch to ILS circa 10DME and no signal picked up, you can see the map position also as i check F10.  This is a better example of not capturing the ILS than approach 2 from track one.

Conclusion - VOR NAV and ILS is unreliable, i just cannot fathom out the lottery of why sometimes the VOR will track and other's it wont, whatever reason i think the VOR and ILS are related.  Are you sending out a polling time, its almost like the system isnt asking for an update or something IDK.  Hope this helps.

 

HB ILS AND VOR BUG 2 - Copy.trk 6.93 MB · 0 downloads HB ILS AND VOR BUGt - Copy.trk 15.84 MB · 0 downloads HB F4 ILS TEST TO FIND BUG - Copy.miz 40.48 kB · 0 downloads

 

Thank you very much fore detailed and great report, we will definitely look into it. Thanks a ton!

[HotTom]

IronMike: You should take a lesson from this.

What folks like myself are looking for are simple instructions. Turn Switch A to Setting X. That will cause this to happen. Then the next step. Then the next.

What many of us need are simple, clear instructions on how to use all this stuff. Nothing you (or HB) has provided is of any use to "monkey-see--monkey-do" types like me.

Much to be said for KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid).

[Oesau]

I have a similar problem with ILS at Batumi in the F-4E - on the runway I have the FD bars but once I get airborne they disappear - I set the mission up with 8kts wind and roughly in line with runway 13. 

The same mission with the F-1 CE has no issues with the ILS - works fine

[Bailey]

3 hours ago, Oesau said:

I have a similar problem with ILS at Batumi in the F-4E - on the runway I have the FD bars but once I get airborne they disappear - I set the mission up with 8kts wind and roughly in line with runway 13. 

The same mission with the F-1 CE has no issues with the ILS - works fine

I wouldn't expect the ADI steering bars (what I assume you say are the FD bars) to stay visible after takeoff. You are going in the opposite direction...

Batumi ILS approach works well for me. You have a miz to post?

Edited June 3, 2024 by Bailey