Please help me understand what's important when looking for a new CPU for DCS

[sirrah]

I'm not a total layman when it comes to building pc's, but enough of a layman to have to ask this  (so please take it easy on me if my question is silly or extremely obvious )

 

When purchasing a CPU (for a DCS dedicated pc), what should I be mainly focussing on?

I currently have an i7-8700k, and simple me would assume that an i7 with a higher number behind it, is always faster and better, but is that true?

For instance; I came across a reasonably priced 2nd hand i7-12700F, but I notice that the speed of the individual cores of the 12700F, is actually (much) lower than the speed per core of my 8700k (8700k vs 12700F). Overall though, the 12700F gets a much higher score. So, am I correct, that for DCS the CPU speed per core is more important than the total speed of all cores together? Or can anyone explain (for a simple man like me ) how I should interpret this?

 

 

Bit of background on my question:
I've build my current pc back in 2019 (see specs in my signature). Obviously, by now it is very outdated for DCS in VR. DCS is still very enjoyable for me, but over the years my gfx settings went down to, by now, pretty much the bare minimum. Going lower would mean not being able to read cockpit gauges anymore. With DCS evolving (updates and fancy new eye candy modules), I notice that while simple missions are still very well playable, online play and more complex SP missions are starting to get unpleasant.

Both my limited available DCS playtime and my wallet (in the process of several home improvement projects), I can't justify the expenses of a full blown new and up to date pc. So, I was thinking, perhaps if I come across a well priced 2nd hand GPU and CPU, I could do like an affordable midlife update and enjoy DCS a few more years.

My CPU and GPU are bottlenecking my current pc. I'd have to investigate what newer GPU and CPU can be added in my current pc, without also having to upgrade the psu, motherboard and case (size).

Edited June 3, 2024 by sirrah

[Mr_sukebe]

The bad news is that your plan is unlikely to work.

If you go for a newer CPU, it'll use a different socket type, so you'll need a new motherboard.  It'll also address either DDR4 or DDR5 RAM, neither of which you probably have.

In addition, the newest NVME2 drives are able to be faster, and with the power draw of the latest and greatest GPU, chances are you'll need a bigger PSU.

Put all that together = get a new PC.

On a positive note, you could use your existing PC for either your kids/friends or set it up to run a dedicated server.

[Aapje]

Userbenchmark is full of it. It's run by a person with a pathological dislike of AMD, who doctors the benchmarks to make AMD look bad, but that doctoring also messes up comparisons between different Intel CPUs.

The 12700 actually has a higher turbo than the 8700:

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/sku/126684/intel-core-i78700k-processor-12m-cache-up-to-4-70-ghz/specifications.html

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/134592/intel-core-i7-12700f-processor-25m-cache-up-to-4-90-ghz.html

But the performance of CPUs is about more than just clock speed, but also IPC, cache, IO, etc. A proper comparison requires benchmarks, preferable in the game or type of games you care about.

As sukebe said, the 12700 uses a different socket and you need a new motherboard to upgrade to it.

If you upgrade your platform, I would currently suggest the 7800X3D, both for the great 1% lows, the low power usage and the platform longevity.

 

Edited June 3, 2024 by Aapje

[Nightdare]

 

6 minutes ago, Mr_sukebe said:

The bad news is that your plan is unlikely to work.

If you go for a newer CPU, it'll use a different socket type, so you'll need a new motherboard.  It'll also address either DDR4 or DDR5 RAM, neither of which you probably have.

In addition, the newest NVME2 drives are able to be faster, and with the power draw of the latest and greatest GPU, chances are you'll need a bigger PSU.

Put all that together = get a new PC.

On a positive note, you could use your existing PC for either your kids/friends or set it up to run a dedicated server.

 

I agree, the generational backlog is a dead end

Since getting an intel 12th gen requires a new MB anyway, my tip to @sirrah is to start saving up

Because by the time you have money for the current End-of-life 14600k, z790, and 4060, with their follow ups on the near horizon, big chance you'll be able to get a 15600k Z890, 5060 for that same money, making a big jump in generations and still have the ability to improve

[sirrah]

22 minutes ago, Mr_sukebe said:

The bad news is that your plan is unlikely to work.

If you go for a newer CPU, it'll use a different socket type, so you'll need a new motherboard.  It'll also address either DDR4 or DDR5 RAM, neither of which you probably have.

In addition, the newest NVME2 drives are able to be faster, and with the power draw of the latest and greatest GPU, chances are you'll need a bigger PSU.

Put all that together = get a new PC.

On a positive note, you could use your existing PC for either your kids/friends or set it up to run a dedicated server.

 

(this calls for that cheerleader emoji with the pompons down low, but I can only add the cheering one..)

So, the 8700k is (one of the) last cpu's with a 1151 socket? Admittedly, I haven't done proper research on this part yet. Well in that case, my idea indeed just died 

 

As for the GPU, I was thinking about a "slightly" better one. not a 4xxx range, but perhaps a 3070(ti) or something like that, but yeah, if the cpu upgrade is out of the question, it's farewell to the gpu upgrade as well.

 

 

18 minutes ago, Aapje said:

Userbenchmark is full of it. It's run by a person with a pathological dislike of AMD, who doctors the benchmarks to make AMD look bad, but that doctoring also messes up comparisons between different Intel CPUs.

The 12700 actually has a higher turbo than the 8700:

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/sku/126684/intel-core-i78700k-processor-12m-cache-up-to-4-70-ghz/specifications.html

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/134592/intel-core-i7-12700f-processor-25m-cache-up-to-4-90-ghz.html

But the performance of CPUs is about more than just clock speed, but also IPC, cache, IO, etc. A proper comparison requires benchmarks, preferable in the game or type of games you care about.

And I would currently suggest the 7800X3D, both for the great 1% lows, the low power usage and the platform longevity.

 

Thanks for your reply. This was just the first Google hit I got. I'll be more careful in trusting them next time.

 

1 minute ago, Nightdare said:

 

 

I agree, the generational backlog is a dead end

Since getting an intel 12th gen requires a new MB anyway, my tip to @sirrah is to start saving up

Because by the time you have money for the current End-of-life 14600k, z790, and 4060, with their follow ups on the near horizon, big chance you'll be able to get a 15600k Z890, 5060 for that same money, making a big jump in generations and still have the ability to improve

 

Thanks mate. Advise taken.
Seems that I'll just have to accept to put DCS on the back burner for a while (or at least stick to the occasional simple missions)

Edited June 3, 2024 by sirrah

[LucShep]

It's all a matter of budget...

Looking at your system specs in sig, and as I see it, you're looking at a whole new system or close to it.
New CPU (+ cooler), motherboard, GPU, a 1000W(+) PSU,  possibly new RAM (64GB) as well.  Maybe another NVME, and new PC case....

You could upgrade just the CPU (and possibly motherboard) but then the rest of your system may become a noticeable bottleneck.
Upgrade to a considerably more powerful GPU.... the rest will become a bottleneck.
And so on... (you get the picture)

Might as well set a maximum budget, and how long you're willing to wait. Then it's a case of studying the possible options.

Remember, later this year (end of summer?) you'll have new CPUs and Motherboards from both AMD (Zen 5) and Intel (15th gen).
And also new GPUs from Nvidia (50 series). 

Any of the "mid range" new parts later this year are expected to be close to the current "high range", at a lower cost.
And current parts should also decrease in price by then, with the new gen substitutes getting all the attention.
Also, there's always the used market (a better solution than most will admit).   


 

Edited June 3, 2024 by LucShep

[Aapje]

3 hours ago, sirrah said:

So, the 8700k is (one of the) last cpu's with a 1151 socket? Admittedly, I haven't done proper research on this part yet. Well in that case, my idea indeed just died 

The 9900K is the fastest and newest CPU that fits in that socket. It was considered a top tier gaming CPU for quite some time (although that was also due to Intel stagnating).

You could see if you can get that one second hand for a modest price.

[Nightdare]

25 minutes ago, Aapje said:

The 9900K is the fastest and newest CPU that fits in that socket. It was considered a top tier gaming CPU for quite some time (although that was also due to Intel stagnating).

You could see if you can get that one second hand for a modest price.

 

2nd hand 9900K gets you a low end current gen MB, is that worth the 5% performance increase over an 8600K? (With the rest of the system still limping along to obsolescence)

[sirrah]

1 hour ago, Nightdare said:

 

2nd hand 9900K gets you a low end current gen MB, is that worth the 5% performance increase over an 8600K? (With the rest of the system still limping along to obsolescence)

Nah, I agree, that's not worth it.

Thanks for letting me know the 9900k is the max my 1151 socket can handle @Aapje. I didn't know that.

I'll just accept that my pc is bleeding to death and try to squeeze out framerates for as long as I can.

 

As said in my OP, I'm still enjoying DCS, even if it's just with simple missions. On the plus side, when I do find the funds for a new pc, the improvement will be massive  

 

[Aapje]

Yeah, moving a bunch of generations ahead gets you that nice big boost.

[Gunslinger52]

Hi @Aapje.

Mobo died, so looking for a new one/new CPU.

Apologies for the stupid question, but- I remember someone saying that certain motherboards support a feature that is good for DCS (as long as your CPU also supports it of course). 

Trouble: For the life of me, I can't remember what it was/find it anymore.

Any ideas?  (It wasn't RAM related, nor anything like 'faster is better').  It was a 'feature', like TPM, or XMP etc...

Thanks in advance.

'52 

Edited August 12, 2024 by Gunslinger52

[Aapje]

@Gunslinger52

I think that you are referring to Smart Access Memory (SAM), which you should enable in the BIOS if you get an AMD system. Intel has pretty much the same thing, but they call it Resizable BAR.

It most typically has a fairly small effect though. Usually a small gain, but some games can have a small loss. Don't know the exact effect on DCS.

It's way more important to make sure that memory overclocking is enabled in the BIOS (EXPO or XMP).

Edited August 12, 2024 by Aapje

[Gunslinger52]

10 hours ago, Aapje said:

@Gunslinger52

I think that you are referring to Smart Access Memory (SAM), which you should enable in the BIOS if you get an AMD system. Intel has pretty much the same thing, but they call it Resizable BAR.

It most typically has a fairly small effect though. Usually a small gain, but some games can have a small loss. Don't know the exact effect on DCS.

It's way more important to make sure that memory overclocking is enabled in the BIOS (EXPO or XMP).

 

That's it!  Geez thanks very much Aapje, I never would have remembered BAR, but that is definitely it. 

Ahhr interesting that it's not so important, thanks.  Will have XMP enabled for sure.

I don't know AMD chips at all, so unsure what to look for.  But have heard bad things about the latest Intel offerings.  

It seems hard to find a balanced, neutral opinion on the net these days.  Will keep looking.

Thanks again.  Have a good one

'52

[Aapje]

2 hours ago, Gunslinger52 said:

It seems hard to find a balanced, neutral opinion on the net these days.  Will keep looking.

All over this forum you see that the 7800X3D gets recommended way more than anything else right now, which makes sense, because for gaming, it is hard to fault it in any way over the competition at this time (price/perf, perf/watt, heat and degradation).

[Gunslinger52]

Cheers Aapje,

will have to take a look at AMD.  I have no allegiance to Intel as such, just more experience in understanding their acronyms

Have a good one

'52

[Aapje]

Me neither. I'm running Intel right now, because when I wanted to upgrade, that made more sense. But now things are different. And in a while they can be different again.

[Ala12Rv-Tundra]

On 8/13/2024 at 12:37 AM, Gunslinger52 said:

Cheers Aapje,

will have to take a look at AMD.  I have no allegiance to Intel as such, just more experience in understanding their acronyms

Have a good one

'52

ryzen 5700x3d + DDR4 3200 ram + MB 450/650 chipset

ryzen 5800x3d + DDR4 3200 ram + MB 450/650 chipset

ryzen 7800x3d + DDR5 6000 ram + mb 650

 

the thing is, despite new AMD stuff being released, 5800x3d, which used to be the sweet spot, is not lowering its price

[Dragon1-1]

Unlike GPUs, CPUs generally don't lower their prices. This is odd, but that's how it works. It's typically best to get the latest generation CPU available, because it's going to cost the same as the equivalent lower generation model.

[kksnowbear]

4 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Unlike GPUs, CPUs generally don't lower their prices. This is odd, but that's how it works. It's typically best to get the latest generation CPU available, because it's going to cost the same as the equivalent lower generation model.

Balderdash.  Depends on what you buy, when, and from where/whom.

One reference, for one CPU (the 5800X3D): https://3cmls.co/US/B09VCJ2SHD

Another reference, different CPU (14700k): https://3cmls.co/US/B0CGJ41C9W

Third reference, different CPU (7800X3D): https://3cmls.co/US/B0BTZB7F88

All vary over the past months/year.  And that's just on Amazon I believe; there would almost certainly be more variance by including other retailers.  Plus, I'm not even including used prices, just new.

What's "best" is absolutely and totally subjective, and also varies depending on what, where and when.  I have dealt with some clients who want the latest thing, and many who prefer to save considerable money by always buying two generations (or more) behind.

Edited August 19, 2024 by kksnowbear

[Snipes1702]

Before you spend any money on the latest CPU have a look at some of the content relating to 13th and 14th Gen Intel CPUs on YouTube. Jay at JayzTwoCents; Steve at Gamers Nexus. Those lads in California are ignored at your peril. 

 

Soz, just read all the topic, still worth a look at the lads on YouTube. 

 

Edited August 19, 2024 by Snipes1702
Correction

[Dragon1-1]

3 hours ago, kksnowbear said:

All vary over the past months/year. 

I'm not saying they don't vary, I'm saying there's no drop like you see with GPUs. You can definitely get a deal, but while a second to last generation GPU. You do get a large benefit from waiting a few months after release, so you're not buying at the "lunatic fringe" price (and also are warned in case the new generation is a major lemon), but that's true of just about everything.

In fact, your links helpfully prove my point. Look at average prices for 5800X3D and 7800X3D. The difference is less than $50, and after the "lunatic fringe" cliff, they both oscillate around their average. How the price fluctuates beyond that is immaterial, you can of course save quite a bit if you get it on a sale, but that's true for both. With a bit of shopping around I'm sure you can get the 7800X3D for cheaper than the average price of a 5800X3D.

They do eventually drop off in long term, but by that point, they're basically obsolete. So if you want to quibble, yes, they do drop off. At a point when they're not worth actually buying even at that reduced price. Yes, you can get a 12700K for $200, it's even in stock on Amazon. Would you recommend anyone to base their build on that one in 2024?

[kksnowbear]

13 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

I'm not saying they don't vary,

Funny...that's exactly what you said (you even added the assertion that's just the way it is - which, of course, isn't accurate):

18 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

CPUs generally don't lower their prices. This is odd, but that's how it works.

 

13 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

...yes, they do drop off.

Precisely as I said, and contrary to what you originally said.

13 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Yes, you can get a 12700K for $200, it's even in stock on Amazon. Would you recommend anyone to base their build on that one in 2024?

Yup.  Got three 12xxx builds in the shop right now, in fact, including one for a DCS user who's actually very excited to get it up and running.

They're reasonably capable but inexpensive (and I can sometimes get 'em for less still).  Some people prefer inexpensive (particularly in their non-essentials), which is what I also said above: "Best" is entirely subjective. Depends on what I can find.

Not everyone has to have (or can afford) the latest, high-end hardware. That's by far the majority of people I work with.  And there's still plenty of capable stuff out there.

Looking back at the Amazon data, the 12700k was selling at over $450 in late 2021.  By the next spring it had dropped $100 to below $350 at times - a decrease of around 25%, nothing to sneeze at.  Within roughly a year of release (by Dec '22) it was at $300 (33% off and it's only a year old).  Another $50 drop by summer 2023; CPU is only 18 months old but is approaching half what it was new.  Late 2023/early 2024; it's only two years old and firmly in the sub-$250 range, and at times less than 200.

It's obvious looking at the graph that the price has in fact steadily declined since release.  Never mind varying around an average and all that blather, it got cheaper, by a lot, and not because it was "basically obsolete" (yet another absurd assertion).  I know plenty of people using CPUs right now less capable than a 12700k.

CPU prices drop over time just like other components do.  They don't drop at the same rate as things like GPUs do (and some GPUs don't drop as fast as CPUs, either), but that's a different discussion with reasons just as obvious.

Edited August 20, 2024 by kksnowbear

[Dragon1-1]

14 hours ago, kksnowbear said:

Yup.  Got three 12xxx builds in the shop right now, in fact, including one for a DCS user who's actually very excited to get it up and running.

I forgot you run a business. I'm sure you get a lot of repeat customers by doing it that way, so to speak.

Myself, I base my advice on people getting gear that is not about to be three generations behind the state of art. You did say they drop, but you conveniently forgot to include the little caveat that by the time they do, you can often get a lower tier CPU of the latest generation that will perform just as well, if not better. Now, last gen Intels are a bit of an exception here (they do run nicely, just not for very long), but this is easily resolved by buying an AMD CPU.

Case in a point:
https://camelcamelcamel.com/product/B0CQ27H8VY?context=search
https://camelcamelcamel.com/product/B09FXNVDBJ?context=search
https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/4609vs5835/Intel-i7-12700K-vs-Intel-i5-14500
Similar price for similar performance, but one of them runs much cooler and is less of a power hog. Of course, given the problems with Intels (and not just the latest ones), I'd instead look for a Ryzen in the same range. I sure hope your customers are aware you're selling them obsolete hardware and are OK with that.

So I'll restate and clarify my point. Between the end of "lunatic fringe cliff" and obsolescence, CPU prices don't really drop off with age, and that's just the way it works. And stay away from anything that's off either side of that range unless you have a very good reason. I thought the latter part was obvious enough, but apparently it doesn't stop some people from quibbling about it.

Edited August 20, 2024 by Dragon1-1

[kksnowbear]

Your entire point is patently absurd, and that's just the way it works.  I've shown that repeatedly.  You make statements that are inaccurate, then go back and with mountains of doublespeak, try to claim you didn't say what you did.  (Fortunately, the quotes resolve that).

My customers are perfectly happy, thanks.  They always have the opportunity to decide, and I typically include lots of options from current retail, used local, and online stuff.  Sometimes they find a better deal elsewhere.  Often they come to regret it because what you buy is more than just a piece of hardware.

A good part of what I offer is service, and I can assure you it's second to none.  Nobody who sells used crap on eBay is going to replace it, for free (including shipping), two years later.  Factually, I have done so.   I take care of people who work with me, and no price history chart can show the value of that.

Keep your personal insults about me and my business to yourself.

52 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

So I'll restate my point. Between the end of "lunatic fringe cliff" and obsolescence, CPU prices don't really drop off with age, and that's just the way it works.

The chart I just posted proves this is absurd.  There's nothing obsolete about a 12700k, and whether it compares to other CPUs is strictly and absolutely a matter of cost.  Your references "conveniently" don't consider the cost of the balance of the system.  Can't build a system from just a CPU.  Your "lower tier CPU of the latest generation" example neglects to mention it could involve a board and perhaps RAM that could drive up the cost.  In some cases, the 12700K build will be cheaper overall because that's what I can find at the time.   My sources are my business - and remember, the client always has the final say.

Incidentally, comparing a 14500 just isn't really going to impress many of my customers lol.  The 12700k is $10 more, outperforms the 14500 per your CPUMark link, and isn't part of the family that destroys itself LMAO  *Nobody*, not even the least informed twitch gamer out there, wants a 13th or 14th gen CPU right now.  Regardless of which model/what power rating, they have earned a bad name - and rightfully so.  I won't sell them, because I have zero confidence I can stand behind them.

My offers compare the total cost - and always include service that no one so far can seem to match.  What makes it work is that I'm the boss, I can set prices however I want, and I don't do it for the money.  Good luck finding that anywhere else    

I rarely (if ever) sell just a CPU.  I offer a better deal based on overall value, and again this includes service that is typically impossible to put a price tag on.  (Tech support on Christmas Day that actually solved the client's problem in less than 24 hours?  Yup, done that...and much much more, and freakin' IBuyPower can't touch this lol).

Edited August 20, 2024 by kksnowbear

[Dragon1-1]

53 minutes ago, kksnowbear said:

Your "lower tier CPU of the latest generation" example neglects to mention it will also most likely involve a board and perhaps RAM that is going to drive up the cost.

Oh, so now that you lost on CPU costs, you bring in the cost of the whole system. Yeah, you do need an up to date mobo and RAM, which cost a bit more, but this also means that any upgrade attempt doesn't mean tossing the whole rig. Unless you're reusing parts from an earlier build, you pay less in short term, but set yourself up to pay more in long term. Unless it's explicitly a time critical situation, saving up a little more for an up to date rig is usually going to be a better option.

53 minutes ago, kksnowbear said:

(Fortunately, the quotes resolve that).

I said a short statement, then, when you started quibbling over caveats, I elaborated on it. I stand by what I said. That you need the obvious part explained out loud doesn't change a thing.

It's you doing mental gymnastics to not just justify selling people a suboptimal setup, but also recommending others to build them that way. It's probably great for having people come back when they need another full refresh, but that's all.

Edited August 20, 2024 by Dragon1-1