Phoenix & Sparrow missiles

[Tango777]

With the latest DCS update, something with the Phoenix and Sparrow missiles are very wrong. I just flew several missions and out of 24 Phoenix missiles, only 1 hit the target - every other Phoenix just continued flying straight and then either turned into the empty sky or turned and hit a friendly. The Sparrows just fly straight and don't even turn toward the target. The ranges at time of launching these missiles were all between 5 and 25 miles.

Before the latest DCS update the Phoenix and Sparrow were pretty accurate.

The Sidewinders still work as they always have, so at least they work.

I am running into this problem in the Multi Thread version of DCS, but not the "Normal" version of DCS.

Edited June 4, 2024 by Tango777
Added MT info

[WarthogOsl]

I've not seen any changes with the Sparrows.  In my experience they will guide fine unless they eat chaff, which happens around 50% of the time (mind you, I'm usually firing at 10 miles).

As for the Phoenix, something happened around April that really screwed them up, especially in the loft phase.

[wwWolfcom]

 

Sparrow is not affected but phoenix does.

Worst thing is, AIM54A is not guided on TWS

Edited June 4, 2024 by wwWolfcom

[Nightdare]

Yesterday I actually overtook my Phoenix missile

Either I was doing Mach 6 and the speedo was broken, or de missile was doing less than mach 0.9 IAS

[speed-of-heat]

I have been seeing some very odd things with the Phoenix , and agree the phoenix A does not seem to be guided out of an STT lock and or goes dumb very quickly 

[TMP95]

Ridiculous still nerfing up 54s and 7s this far into all this. Way too much $$ spent to still be having these complete nerfs to major weapons making aircraft unplayable 

[speed-of-heat]

Tbh, the sparrow still works for me, the phoenix is a mixed bag works inside 20-30nm in stt...

[PhantomHans]

Yhea this is irritating and potentially breaks campaigns with AIM-54 heavy intercept missions.

 

Patch coming when ED?  This is my primary module at the moment and it's kinda totally borked.

[The_Tau]

2 hours ago, PhantomHans said:

Yhea this is irritating and potentially breaks campaigns with AIM-54 heavy intercept missions.

 

Patch coming when ED?  This is my primary module at the moment and it's kinda totally borked.

Patch is now and it got this apparently

[PhantomHans]

1 hour ago, The_Tau said:

Patch is now and it got this apparently

Okay but I wonder exactly how well they handled thay or if that's just their way of saying "lol we covered it up"?

 

If I understand correctly,  an AIM-54 launched in TWS should get midcourse updates from the launch platform.

If I understand DCS correctly,  the A model must be given updates all the way to the terminal active homing phase, and must get the command to go active.

The C model may go active if abandoned.

 

But if they're going vertical while I'm supporting them in TWS then clearly something else is going on, there was not yet any lock to lose...

[PhantomHans]

I don't wanna make a separate thread so I'll ask here...

What's the current AIM-7 and AIM-54 behavior?

If I understand correctly the real AIM-7 needs STT guidance the whole way, but if it had switched into or was launched in HOJ mode, could continue to guide on the jammer as long as the jammer was emitting.

Do the DCS AIM-7s support HOJ mode without an STT lock?

 

In DCS I understand the AIM-54A:

1. Won't go active from a TWS launch unless supported to the activation point.

2. Won't ever go active if launched from STT.

The 54C:

1. Will go active if support is lost from a TWS launch.

2. Will go active from a STT launch.

 

Does that match up with what we know of its real capabilities?  What about HOJ capability?

[captain_dalan]

2 hours ago, PhantomHans said:

I don't wanna make a separate thread so I'll ask here...

What's the current AIM-7 and AIM-54 behavior?

If I understand correctly the real AIM-7 needs STT guidance the whole way, but if it had switched into or was launched in HOJ mode, could continue to guide on the jammer as long as the jammer was emitting.

Do the DCS AIM-7s support HOJ mode without an STT lock?

 

In DCS I understand the AIM-54A:

1. Won't go active from a TWS launch unless supported to the activation point.

2. Won't ever go active if launched from STT.

The 54C:

1. Will go active if support is lost from a TWS launch.

2. Will go active from a STT launch.

 

Does that match up with what we know of its real capabilities?  What about HOJ capability?

The A's seem to working properly, as long as you can keep a working track. Note the 2 tackviews bellow, in both i fire 2x 54A's at two tracks (MiG-29's), in both i lose the track on the second one (the furthest) and the missile fired at it goes ballistic, while the second missile homes true in both scenarios. As for the exact state of the missiles after today's patch, i can't say. Many more tests are needed, from different test scenarios. 

EDIT: though from the 2 independent test so far, they seem to loft less (about 1000-1500ft) on 40 mile shots and they also (probably as a result) seem to have a bit less energy at the going active point (about 0.1 mach), and  at impact (about 0.8 mach). How will this affect Pk against defending targets? No idea. More systematic tests are needed, and user experience from online use. IMO, these changes are just band-aids. All the missiles are long overdue for a transfer to the new missile API. 

Edited June 6, 2024 by captain_dalan

[Tango777]

I downloaded the update that was made available today and I tested the Phoenix, it now works in both TWS & STT.

Using the multi thread version.

[WarthogOsl]

5 hours ago, captain_dalan said:

The A's seem to working properly, as long as you can keep a working track. Note the 2 tackviews bellow, in both i fire 2x 54A's at two tracks (MiG-29's), in both i lose the track on the second one (the furthest) and the missile fired at it goes ballistic, while the second missile homes true in both scenarios. As for the exact state of the missiles after today's patch, i can't say. Many more tests are needed, from different test scenarios. 
 

 

Are you using any loft assist by any chance?  I usually do (about 15 degs), and tonight, I saw the same results you are seeing, with the second missile going ballistic.  However, I later launched from level, and in 3 similar cases, I never lost track on the second bandit...both missiles made it to pitbull range.  No idea why lofting would affect the AWG-9's TWS tracking ability, but I'm gonna do some more testing.

[captain_dalan]

5 hours ago, WarthogOsl said:

Are you using any loft assist by any chance?  I usually do (about 15 degs), and tonight, I saw the same results you are seeing, with the second missile going ballistic.  However, I later launched from level, and in 3 similar cases, I never lost track on the second bandit...both missiles made it to pitbull range.  No idea why lofting would affect the AWG-9's TWS tracking ability, but I'm gonna do some more testing.

Oops! Looks like i forgot to upload my tracks! That's what happens when you post at 3AM!!! 
As for manual loft/loft assist, i didn't use it in this case, but it would not effect the guiding anyway. You may be able to notice in the tacview bellow, but the second MiG was barely in my cone when i picked it up. From previous iterations of this mission, i am well aware i can't maintain proper tracks on both bandits, but i fired the second FOX anyway, for academic reasons. 

Here are the tracks BTW (finally)
 

Tacview-20240606-020555-DCS-F-14A_IA_Syria_BVR.zip.acmi Tacview-20240606-021233-DCS-F-14A_IA_Syria_BVR.zip.acmi

[WarthogOsl]

So what is the expected behavior of the Phoenix when losing a TWS track before going pitbull?  Because I still see them climbing.  For example, if the missile has reached the top of its loft, and you lose track, the missile will initiate another climb and go sailing way over the target.  Is that actually intended?

[draconus]

On 6/9/2024 at 1:33 AM, WarthogOsl said:

Is that actually intended?

Most definitely not.

[WarthogOsl]

18 hours ago, draconus said:

Most definitely not.

Makes me wonder if the behavior is split into 3 segments...loft, cruise, and terminal.  Because we had a fix for the missiles suddenly going into a steep climb when notched in the terminal phase.  Then we get a fix last patch, I guess for the missiles going vertical when losing track in a loft.  Wouldn't it make sense to fix that in all phases, or am I asking too much?

[draconus]

1 hour ago, WarthogOsl said:

Wouldn't it make sense to fix that in all phases, or am I asking too much?

We don't know. If you can reproduce it, save a track and report it.

[WarthogOsl]

1 hour ago, draconus said:

We don't know. If you can reproduce it, save a track and report it.

I've never got a replay track to work for more than about 1 minute with the F-14.  But here's a screen shot from a TacView taken after the last patch.  Note that the second missile fired initially follows the loft course of the first missile, then suddenly pitches up more, ultimately sailing over the second MiG. 

I see no difference in the missile behavior when TWS track is lost.  I'm not really sure what the patch solved, if anything.

[speed-of-heat]

I am seeing the A hitting much more frequently .. but i have dropped to firing a single missile at a time ?

[WarthogOsl]

14 minutes ago, speed-of-heat said:

I am seeing the A hitting much more frequently .. but i have dropped to firing a single missile at a time ?

Which was and continues to be the issue.  There's a good chance that the second missile fired in TWS won't get anywhere near the target.  Now, that might be two separate problems...one with the radar dropping tracks much more often than it used to, and another with the missile's behavior when a track is dropped.

[speed-of-heat]

certainly pre-patch i was getting zero-hits with the A unless i used it like a super sparrow with STT, now at least i get a single TWS hit I will set up a mission and a track 

[RustBelt]

For Troubleshooting purposes I don’t think it matters if the visuals of the track match. It should still be recording the states?

[speed-of-heat]

phoenix test 1.trk

added here for completeness , birds going dumb , but , not pulling up ... just going straight