Force feedback Joystick from Moza

[Rosebud47]

Let´s sink that discussion in, friends. I´m as well here, to share some joy for our hobby, not to make the world a better place

or worse.

@Mr_sukebe Finally I´ve mounted the Moza base straight, what was better feasable. The base is now fixed to the seat and stays in place, when the seat is moved back and forth. In addition I´ve put some seat cushions in the back to move the butt closer to the stick - works totally fine. Finally a 7,5cm extension puts the grip in the right place.

I´d say, if someone is really interested in flying helicopter in DCS, ForceFeedback is a must have to fully enjoy!

 

 

[Aapje]

7 hours ago, Mr_sukebe said:

Ref the licensing issue.

Yes, clearly it appears to be an issue.  Is it our problem?  IMO, not really.

Buyers are at risk of a legal procedure that results in Moza no longer being allowed to distribute the software. Of course then they can't take the software from you, but such a ruling would mean no more updates or fixes. How is that not 'our' problem?

Quote

Tesla are now associated with a Trump, Ford operated car manufacturing in Nazi Germany etc.  

That first bit doesn't involve illegal behavior and is purely a personal preference, no different from not wanting to deal with a Chinese company or whatever. There is a fundamental difference between a personal (moral) preference and lawbreaking.

And that second example is a bit silly to bring up. First of all, none of those people are still working there after 80 years. And both Ford and GM (and IBM and ...) had already built up manufacturing in Germany before the war, whose law allowed foreign companies to only have a minority stake. So they had little control and probably just hoped to not get their assets seized. Realistically speaking those factories would have been used by Nazi Germany no matter what. Do you really think that they would allow Ford to close down the factory and tell the Nazi's to get lost?

Edited December 2, 2024 by Aapje

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

Oh, the latest version is 1.0.2.14 and fix some issues. Also, here is a video on how to change the setting of the base:

It is in Spanish, but I guess you won't mind.

[Hammer1-1]

15 hours ago, VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants said:

I am amazed by how some people could stuff their own words into others mouth. There are tons of software historically with ethical issue we are still (forced) to use daily

Normally I would highly agree with you, but to normalize this behavior isnt the correct path to take in any circumstance.

[Rosebud47]

Seems like that desperate outcry in FlightSim forums for low-level software development has more to do with some fear, that some people soon will be replaced by AI.

And oh..., I´m sure we are all baptized, if that´s the concern.

 

For DCS with native ForceFeedback support, the software modifications for the Moza base is not needed. Just the calibration and you´re good to go.
But  for games without Forcefeedback support, like MSFS, the software is really useful and needed to make the base work in the flightsim. 

[Aapje]

1 hour ago, Rosebud47 said:

Seems like that desperate outcry in FlightSim forums for low-level software development has more to do with some fear, that some people soon will be replaced by AI.

And oh..., I´m sure we are all baptized, if that´s the concern.

No, the issue is how they used it. There is nothing wrong with generating new software from scratch (other than the fact that AI tools can't actually write big programs on their own right now), but that is very different from creating a derived work by translating code to a different programming language. As I've explained before, doing this sort of stuff predates LLM AI's by a very long time and it has been deemed illegal to make derivative works. This has all been hashed out in the courts a long time ago.

But I think that you have a fundamentally different point of view than me. You probably also were happy to see FC Technologies making an identical copy of a Virpil grip and wondering why people were upset at it.

However, while you are entitled to your own morals, you don't get your own law. If someone sues Moza, the courts won't say: 'Rosebud47 disagrees with long established law, so we we will allow Moza to break the law'

[MAXsenna]

No, the issue is how they used it. There is nothing wrong with generating new software from scratch (other than the fact that AI tools can't actually write big programs on their own right now), but that is very different from creating a derived work by translating code to a different programming language. As I've explained before, doing this sort of stuff predates LLM AI's by a very long time and it has been deemed illegal to make derivative works. This has all been hashed out in the courts a long time ago.
But I think that you have a fundamentally different point of view than me. You probably also were happy to see FC Technologies making an identical copy of a Virpil grip and wondering why people were upset at it.
However, while you are entitled to your own morals, you don't get your own law. If someone sues Moza, the courts won't say: 'Rosebud47 disagrees with long established law, so we we will allow Moza to break the law'

Can one sue Chinese companies? How?
That said, it's ridiculous of them not to abide by the license. Could probably benefit them if they would let users interact through Github.

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[Aapje]

@MAXsenna

As Chinese companies have been generating more IP of themselves, they've started caring more about copyright and such. So one could sue them in China, but since they do business in the West, one could also sue them in the US and EU.

They are extra vulnerable since their main business is racing gear, so they would obviously be far more likely to pull the AB9 from the market than to risk a total sales ban in the US/EU.

[Rosebud47]

Let´s go ahead @Aapje  and sue them and we´ll see, if your ambition and caring is genuine or we are dealing with another bigmouth seeking for attention in the internet.
Rosebud still doesn´t care for this nonsense and is busy for the rest of the week with "Apaches in the fog"  

[Aapje]

@Rosebud47

I won't sue them of course, because I am not their competitor. I also never said I will.

I made it very clear that my argument is that there is a risk to customers that a competitor will sue and that this will impact customers.

Edited December 3, 2024 by Aapje

[Feverdog]

Last thing from me on that debate, this is China, its nothing new and wont be the last time.  So many things get copied or cloned over there.  It seems some are on the warpath, maybe rightly so, but its not in the communitys interests to see it fail, yet some seem desperate and more or less stalking all reddit posts and youtube vids determined to see it fail.  Of course they should release the code but will they? likely not.  As for the current other ones, with animals and small children those exposed cogs etc I see as a big no......hell I'd prob snag my droopy testicles on it, and I waiting for the WinWing offering is likely going to be too long for my sanity, aswell as only having a Thrustmaster grip

[Aapje]

3 hours ago, Feverdog said:

but its not in the communitys interests to see it fail

How so? The entire reason why we have FFB bases now is because two dudes decided to take a gamble and make a FFB base despite not having a real company. They proved that there is a market for this product and further success of FFB bases almost certainly does not hinge on Moza.

You can more justifiably argue that it's not in our interest to see people stop innovating in their shed because they are afraid that a big(ger) company will just steal what they made.

Remember that Moza didn't innovate all that much, aside from making the base in a real factory, but a company like Winwing can do that too. And it looks like we will get bases from Winwing, Virpil and FliteSim, and the Rhino & FFBeast already exist. So it's not like we will have no options in the future if Moza pulls out. And it's certainly not a given that they will do so, rather than comply with the license or rewrite their software from scratch.

Of course you are free to rationalize however you want, so you can square your morals with what you actually want. People do it often enough, and truly principled people are far and few between.

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  It seems some are on the warpath

It's really unfortunate to see all kinds of false allegations here. Again, I'm not going to sue Moza and I never said anyone should. It is the actions of Moza themselves, where they have most likely broken the law, that open them up to legal proceedings. And that in turn is a risk for consumers.

Some people here seem to prefer that customers are misinformed. Now, I'm fine with people choosing to take these risks for themselves, but you cross a line with me if you want to prevent other consumers from knowing what they are getting into.

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 As for the current other ones, with animals and small children those exposed cogs etc I see as a big no

You can just put a cover on it: https://qr4rigs.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=218

Edited December 3, 2024 by Aapje

[Hammer1-1]

6 hours ago, Aapje said:

[Some people here seem to prefer that customers are misinformed. Now, I'm fine with people choosing to take these risks for themselves, but you cross a line with me if you want to prevent other consumers from knowing what they are getting into.]

You can just put a cover on it: https://qr4rigs.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=218

glad you mentioned that because I would have never known about that...thanks!

[Scott-S6]

On 12/3/2024 at 7:58 AM, Rosebud47 said:

Seems like that desperate outcry in FlightSim forums for low-level software development has more to do with some fear, that some people soon will be replaced by AI.

It's really very simple. People that have created something of value understand the importance of IP rights. Those that do not, have not 

Edited December 4, 2024 by Scott-S6

[MAXsenna]

It's really very simple. People that have created something of value understand the importance of IP rights. Those that do not, have not 

So true!

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[Rosebud47]

@Scott-S6 You could buy my books at Amazon. Speaking of a bunch of code-lines to make a little servo move a stick in a toy as intellectual property, is so much low-level, that I already regret being involved into that discussion.   

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

16 minutes ago, Rosebud47 said:

@Scott-S6 You could buy my books at Amazon. Speaking of a bunch of code-lines to make a little servo move a stick in a toy as intellectual property, is so much low-level, that I already regret being involved into that discussion.   

BTW, I am a bit regret having sold my 10cm extension, now the 20mm is a bit too tall…

Edited December 5, 2024 by VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants

[Rosebud47]

vor 13 Minuten schrieb VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants:

BTW, I am a bit regret having sold my 10cm extension, now the 20mm is a bit too tall…

I was searching for 10cm swan neck extension, which would have fit nicely in my setup, but couldn´t find any available. Well, the 7,5cm is okay, it´s just the original issue we were discussing, that the massive base extends the distance to the seating position. 

[Bucic]

4 minutes ago, Rosebud47 said:

I was searching for 10cm swan neck extension, which would have fit nicely in my setup, but couldn´t find any available. Well, the 7,5cm is okay, it´s just the original issue we were discussing, that the massive base extends the distance to the seating position. 

3D printing isn't an option? Also, I've seen eBay listings with ready-made sets of different shapes and sizes.

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

Not everyone has a 3D printer, sadly... My sold one was from eBay, and I think I should have gone for a Vipril which I got from another user here.

Edited December 5, 2024 by VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants

[Scott-S6]

1 hour ago, Rosebud47 said:

@Scott-S6 You could buy my books at Amazon. Speaking of a bunch of code-lines to make a little servo move a stick in a toy as intellectual property, is so much low-level, that I already regret being involved into that discussion.   

So now you're suggesting that software doesn't/shouldn't even count as IP? It's pure intellectual snobbery then?

[Nightdare]

On 12/3/2024 at 12:14 PM, MAXsenna said:

Can one sue Chinese companies? How?

Don't ask me the ins and outs, but yea, apparently, you can, we recently won a case and just received the entire inventory (including injection molds) from a Chinese company that illegally copied our products

As for (if) any financial compensation we received, sorry, I'm not that close to the fire for those details

[Rosebud47]

@Bucic @VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants 3D printed is an option, but I like the look and feel of a solid metal extension more, but that´s just personal preference. Anyhow I´m done with my setup and quite satisfied with the result.

[MAXsenna]

Don't ask me the ins and outs, but yea, apparently, you can, we recently won a case and just received the entire inventory (including injection molds) from a Chinese company that illegally copied our products
As for (if) any financial compensation we received, sorry, I'm not that close to the fire for those details

Well, that's actually pretty cool and makes me hopeful for the future!

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[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

1 hour ago, Rosebud47 said:

@Bucic @VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants 3D printed is an option, but I like the look and feel of a solid metal extension more, but that´s just personal preference. Anyhow I´m done with my setup and quite satisfied with the result.

It is hard to find a goose neck and also metallic extension. 3D printed one may not withstand the force, I am worried. There are aluminium ones out there but if it is of the size we are talking about, it would be straight mostly.