Force feedback Joystick from Moza

[Nightdare]

24 minutes ago, Hiob said:

That's kind of the point we're trying to make here. Both Moza (who should have thoroughly thought about that beforehand) and Spud (whom I don't blame for it) are doing a disservice to the product that is not fit to showcase its strength or (real) weaknesses.

If this is how Moza wants to sell this setup, then I'm glad someone did a "Hold up a minute!"

Spudknocker isn't doing anyone a disservice by giving a heads up that Moza's mounting solution sucks, I think this quick preliminary actually has lots of good info (though none we'd like to hear)

So no, he didn't mention this should probably be used with an extension (if the motors can actually handle that), but that's also not mentioned anywhere in the marketing

and deskmounting isn't the best idea for an FFB base period, but hey, it's -as stated- a quick review

 

 

Why am I suspecting people here are too emotionally invested for this to succeed, they'll go as far as vilifying a reviewer that is factually right in his criticism?

Edited July 11, 2024 by Nightdare

[Cab]

3 minutes ago, Nightdare said:

Why am I suspecting people here are too emotionally invested for this to succeed, they'll go as far as vilifying a reviewer that is factually right in his criticism?

  

[Aapje]

I don't agree with a blanket 'don't buy this' warning when the issue is only with a specific use case. It's like arguing that people should not buy a Ferrari because it couldn't get over the speed bump close to your house or because your weekly groceries don't fit inside.

A good reviewer looks at the different (reasonable) use cases and points how well it works for each, or if they can't test other use cases, they at least point out that the criticism is only for one specific use case. So in this case, it is a fair warning that the base doesn't seem well suited for a central mounting with the provided mount. But was that mount even intended for central mounting, or for side mounting, where you rest your arm on the arm rest, which tends to be higher than your legs?

I recall that at FSExpo, Moza demo'd the base with a side mounting.

That said, I'm personally of the opinion that nobody should pre-order this base if they expect any guarantees and are not willing to take a big gamble, since the information provided by Moza is utterly insufficient to be confident that it works well enough to be value for money compared to the Rhino for any use case.

[rapid]

Could be that Moza is new to the Flight Sim Genre and did not fully understand how their FFB needs to be implemented. Remember they couldn't even supply me with the dimension and size of the unit. 

 

Hope I am not screwed as I have one on order.

[MAXsenna]

2 hours ago, Aapje said:

I don't agree with a blanket 'don't buy this' warning when the issue is only with a specific use case. It's like arguing that people should not buy a Ferrari because it couldn't get over the speed bump close to your house or because your weekly groceries don't fit inside.

My thoughts exactly.

2 hours ago, rapid said:

Could be that Moza is new to the Flight Sim Genre and did not fully understand how their FFB needs to be implemented. Remember they couldn't even supply me with the dimension and size of the unit. 

 

Hope I am not screwed as I have one on order.

I believe you are correct. Easily corrected, with different mounts. Can we assume the mount is included? I was never gonna use it in any case if it is.
I'm still on the fence, I don't think you have anything to worry about, as long as it supports DX out of the box, and the software/telemetry effects will probably come later.

[rapid]

20 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

My thoughts exactly.

I believe you are correct. Easily corrected, with different mounts. Can we assume the mount is included? I was never gonna use it in any case if it is.
I'm still on the fence, I don't think you have anything to worry about, as long as it supports DX out of the box, and the software/telemetry effects will probably come later.

Yes correct the mounts are not included as far as I can see and neither are they on their web site as an accessory . Maybe to follow....?

[MAXsenna]

Yes correct the mounts are not included as far as I can see and neither are they on their web site as an accessory . Maybe to follow....?

Yeah, it would be natural for them to develop their own, and have I variety in mounting wholes, to support other vendors.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[KeyserSoze62]

Given that this mounts to the Thrustmaster base plates I would plan to mount like this on my MT chair. Plenty of room to get it low and use my extension on Virpil stick.

 

null

[mikko.1842]

So, basically, Spud "pre-review" was like : "mount is wrong and prevents the user from using the stick at full forward throw".

At least, Moza now knows that they need to provide a better-fitted mount.

Still, it is a pity he didn't talk about the force feedback effects, nor the input-output. I guess we will learn more in his full fledged review, in 2 weeks.

[ZipLine9]

Like a few guys here, I will be adopting a wait and see stance. I emailed Moza support, wanting to know if their base would work with my set up. I have a Warthog grip, extension and VKB adapter. married to a Gunfighter base. The reply didnt give me a whole lot of confidence. He "strongly advised caution using non Moza products that have not been tested by the team" and " for best performance and compatibility stick to their products" So...yea. Going to que for the Rhino, and am really curious to see if Virpil makes a move.

[Cab]

41 minutes ago, ZipLine9 said:

Like a few guys here, I will be adopting a wait and see stance. I emailed Moza support, wanting to know if their base would work with my set up. I have a Warthog grip, extension and VKB adapter. married to a Gunfighter base. The reply didnt give me a whole lot of confidence. He "strongly advised caution using non Moza products that have not been tested by the team" and " for best performance and compatibility stick to their products" So...yea. Going to que for the Rhino, and am really curious to see if Virpil makes a move.

From everything I've seen, it's compatible with Thrustmaster grips so your Warthog and extension should work.

That being said, waiting for more information is not unwise. 

[Cgjunk2]

On 7/11/2024 at 10:25 AM, Nightdare said:

If this is how Moza wants to sell this setup, then I'm glad someone did a "Hold up a minute!"

Spudknocker isn't doing anyone a disservice by giving a heads up that Moza's mounting solution sucks, I think this quick preliminary actually has lots of good info (though none we'd like to hear)

So no, he didn't mention this should probably be used with an extension (if the motors can actually handle that), but that's also not mentioned anywhere in the marketing

and deskmounting isn't the best idea for an FFB base period, but hey, it's -as stated- a quick review

 

 

Why am I suspecting people here are too emotionally invested for this to succeed, they'll go as far as vilifying a reviewer that is factually right in his criticism?

 

I think it’s annoying that it gets sent to youtubers that focus on aspects that don’t have to do with the force feedback aspect of the product.   Moza might not understand well what makes a good flight sim setup.  They’re going to chase their own tails trying to please people who have no idea what they are reviewing or buying, and end up ignoring the fact that a good force feedback stick (with high forces and throw) can never work as well as it should on a desktop.   They should just develop a desktop version like the old MS sidewinder and just tell everyone that this particular unit is not meant for the casual simmer that has run out of ideas on how to spend money.

Edited July 14, 2024 by Cgjunk2

[Biggus]

I suspect that Moza's engineers very well understand the way in which the AB9 is intended to be used, but their marketing department have no idea and therefore cannot support those who are reviewing early samples.  That's just my impression though.

[Mr_sukebe]

Have to say that he’s tried to mount it in a very odd manner.

i would have thought it obvious to mount it really low and then add an extension.

[Nightdare]

14 hours ago, Cgjunk2 said:

I think it’s annoying that it gets sent to youtubers that focus on aspects that don’t have to do with the force feedback aspect of the product.   Moza might not understand well what makes a good flight sim setup.  They’re going to chase their own tails trying to please people who have no idea what they are reviewing or buying, and end up ignoring the fact that a good force feedback stick (with high forces and throw) can never work as well as it should on a desktop.   They should just develop a desktop version like the old MS sidewinder and just tell everyone that this particular unit is not meant for the casual simmer that has run out of ideas on how to spend money.

 

 

Good job, the Moza FFB marketing is now dead in the water

This product is only for those with dedicated simpits and can only be reviewed by guys that are able to reconfigure their existing rig to mount this up

I got a great sales slogan:

"Amateurs need not apply, only for Elite simmers" (And since we'll never get our investment back with that little marketshare, forget about a desktop version)

 

 

 

Edited July 14, 2024 by Nightdare

[Cab]

14 hours ago, Cgjunk2 said:

I think it’s annoying that it gets sent to youtubers that focus on aspects that don’t have to do with the force feedback aspect of the product.   

You act like his "review" will end there, when he clearly wrote a video is coming soon but he wanted to early warn potential pre-purchasers about this one detail.

Edited July 14, 2024 by Cab

[Aapje]

@Nightdare

I've not seen anyone use the Rhino with a desktop mount, so it was always going to be unknown how well such a setup works with FFB. I fully expect Moza to have a rapid learning curve and for third parties to come in and solve some issues (like Monstertech).

It's a bit silly to argue that a company entering a new market has to be perfect right away. Just let the early adopters run into the issues and then decide based on their findings.

[Nightdare]

2 hours ago, Aapje said:

@Nightdare

I've not seen anyone use the Rhino with a desktop mount, so it was always going to be unknown how well such a setup works with FFB.

I agree, and contrary to what may appear, I also do not think an FFB setup can work clamped to a desk, unless with a very unwieldy solid/heavy anchored mount

(And that's not taking the people's average quality of desk into account)

 

2 hours ago, Aapje said:

It's a bit silly to argue that a company entering a new market has to be perfect right away. Just let the early adopters run into the issues and then decide based on their findings.

This worked somewhat with the original Oculus CV's but that was experimental tech, not a 25 year old product type, and its versions were moderately wel executed

Setting bad blood might get your product killed pretty quickly "Just let the fools part with their money"-attitude is one such way

It'd be a bit like ED putting up a half baked module, then release the same -but finished- module later, which you buy separately

[Mr_sukebe]

Being fair to Moza’s marketing team, if Spud has been given a pre-release version, then maybe they’ve not had time to fully prepare guidance in multiple languages for users.

It would seem to be very prudent of them to pull together guidance on how best to mount, hopefully include a vid walkthrough.

[Nightdare]

@Mr_sukebe

The gist I get from Spudknocker's 'review', the setup as Moza has presented it, is mechanically too flawed to give a good review (I'd say not being able to utilize the sticks entire deflection is akin to reviewing a car in a parking space) and needs to be reworked and not so much a "RTFM" issue

[rapid]

We all might as well start saving up for a  Brunner CLS-E Force !

[Aapje]

2 hours ago, Nightdare said:

The gist I get from Spudknocker's 'review', the setup as Moza has presented it

I have my doubts that Moza presented him with the Trustmaster FA/18 stick that he uses, rather than Moza's own stick or no stick.

I also don't know what Moza actually said vs what Spudknocker assumed. Like I said, the desktop mount may be intended for a side mount, which would mitigate a bunch of his concerns. And if I look at the website, then they show this mounting solution with the base mounted higher, which would mean that the stick could go fully forward.

2 hours ago, Nightdare said:

is mechanically too flawed to give a good review (I'd say not being able to utilize the sticks entire deflection is akin to reviewing a car in a parking space) and needs to be reworked and not so much a "RTFM" issue

Potentially, all his issues are either with one specific mounting solution or his choice of stick. The very fact that Spudknocker doesn't seem to realize this, and seems to treat his specific use case as the end all and be all, doesn't fill me with confidence that his statements are all that valuable.

Edited July 15, 2024 by Aapje

[Nightdare]

17 hours ago, Aapje said:

I have my doubts that Moza presented him with the Trustmaster FA/18 stick that he uses, rather than Moza's own stick or no stick.

I also don't know what Moza actually said vs what Spudknocker assumed. Like I said, the desktop mount may be intended for a side mount, which would mitigate a bunch of his concerns. And if I look at the website, then they show this mounting solution with the base mounted higher, which would mean that the stick could go fully forward.

Potentially, all his issues are either with one specific mounting solution or his choice of stick. The very fact that Spudknocker doesn't seem to realize this, and seems to treat his specific use case as the end all and be all, doesn't fill me with confidence that his statements are all that valuable.

 

 

You're trying very hard to discredit someone while the photo's show no proof of what you are suggesting

A side mount? look at that picture, that's not a clamp for a side mount (Doesn't even show any capability for the base to be mounted sideways)

And then there is your problem of him 'using a wrong stick', because you are sure Moza gave him a stick or suggested using a different one?

So he's supposed to be 'pro' enough to jury-rig his own simpit on the fly to incorporate a ground mount FFB base or side mount a desk mount, but he can't use different grips, because apparently real pro's never do that? Please stop moving the goalposts

 

You prove to me this base is only for the DIY Simpit building crowd and I'll stop defending a basic consumer's PoV on this product

[Aapje]

@Nightdare

Quote

A side mount? look at that picture, that's not a clamp for a side mount 

A stick on the side doesn't have to be on the chair. Plenty of people have a stick on the side, but mount it to the desk:

In such a configuration, you can rest your arm on the arm rests of the chair and it is much less of an issue to mount the stick higher up. Spudknocker never addressed this option.

Quote

And then there is your problem of him 'using a wrong stick', because you are sure Moza gave him a stick or suggested using a different one?

You claimed that Spudknocker either was using the exact setup that Moza gave to him or that they told him that this is THE way to use this base. However, I'm not sure how you know this, since Spudknocker never wrote this, so it seems likely that you just made this up. It also seems unlikely to me, since Moza is making their own stick, and it seems unlikely that they would ship or suggest a competitor's stick.

If this is not in fact the only or the most common stick that people would use with the base, then the issue that Spudknocker had, might be completely absent for most buyers, who use a different stick. So in that case, I consider it unreasonable to call this a blocking issue, but more of a caveat.

Quote

So he's supposed to be 'pro' enough to jury-rig his own simpit on the fly to incorporate a ground mount FFB base or side mount a desk mount, but he can't use different grips, because apparently real pro's never do that? Please stop moving the goalposts

Now you are just putting words in my mouth. There is no real way for me to respond to this, since it is really just a nonsensical set of sentences.

Quote

You prove to me this base is only for the DIY Simpit building crowd 

Again, just putting words in my mouth. I never said this, what I said is that it is unfair to claim a product is unfit in general, when someone didn't in fact test use cases where it may work perfectly well. It's not up to me to prove this. You defended the claim that there are no valid uses for the product in the current state, so it is in fact up to you to show the evidence for this claim.

My claim is merely that the pictures and arguments presented by Spudknocker, don't address all possible use cases for the product. It's like someone arguing that you should not buy a certain car because golf clubs don't fit in the trunk/boot. It ignores that not all people play golf. Similarly, not all people would use a joystick in the way that Spudknocker tried to use it.

Quote

I'll stop defending a basic consumer's PoV on this product

Except that you are not defending the customer's POV, but you are taking the issues that one specific person had with one specific setup, and are generalizing it in a way that is not fact-based or reasonable.

Mind you, I already said that I don't advise people to buy this yet, but that is based on factual arguments.

Edited July 16, 2024 by Aapje

[MAXsenna]

We all might as well start saving up for a  Brunner CLS-E Force !

Pretty sure both the Rhino and the Beast leaves the Brunner in the dust...

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

Potentially, all his issues are either with one specific mounting solution or his choice of stick. The very fact that Spudknocker doesn't seem to realize this, and seems to treat his specific use case as the end all and be all, doesn't fill me with confidence that his statements are all that valuable.

Spudspud does not know what an FFB base actually is. Let's just leave it at at that.

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