Su-27M/Su-35S

[Keller1]

I know REDFOR players arent the largest chunk in the game, but there are quite a few of us and im always stuck feeling like REDFOR is a step behind when it comes to CAP. sure you got your shorter range r-77s on the mig, and J-11, but they are super easy to defeat and unless u own the JF-17 the R-77 is all you got more or less. the R-27 family just doesnt stand up to the SPAMRAAM, and i think itd be nice to see maybe a Su-27M or a Su-35S with R77-1s. The Su-30SM mod is a great start and have been able to dig up a plethora of information on Su-35 and Su-30 aircraft, and they are just dudes making cool stuff in their free time, the Su-30SM mod adds quite a lot including R77-1s, R77Ms, even the hypersonic R-37M, and a 80ish% clickable cockpit. I feel like giving REDFOR a flaming cliffs style, or full fidelity standalone module would be a big win and possibly bring back REDFOR mains who are waiting for something new. 

 

Ive seen many servers who just edit the default su-27 and su-33 loadouts to give them things like PL-12s and R77s just so they can keep up with the more advanced BLUFOR jets. I believe this will mend the gap and even the odds a little more between BLUFOR and REDFOR when it comes to BVR engagements. The Su-27M and Su-35S would also open up to better A/G configurations similar to the F-15E and other BLUFOR jets. 

 

As far as balancing goes, I'm not sure if any BLUFOR aircraft have a PESA radar or not, and I know the earlier Su-35S had one. I'm not some Radar guru but im sure PESA would beat out a PD radar and for the sake of keeping things fair that'd be hard to get around. I suppose there must be a Su-27M or Su-35S that at least had a PD radar at one point, and maybe that block can be the one in the game. I suppose thats for the devs to figure out if they like the idea. 

 

For me personally it was the Su-27 that got me into the game, and I still love the flanker, But I find that Just to get a chance jousting a BLUFOR jet, I gotta use R77-1s, and even then im still usually outranged by the AMRAAM. I've found with the Su-30SM mod's configuration of the missile at high altitude youve got about 40-60kms in a head on engagement, and watching replays it seems the amraam floats around the same area. Is the Su-30SM mod's version totally accurate? probably not, but its the best I have to go off of at the moment. 

 

All im saying, I think it'd be huge to get another REDFOR module that can keep things spicy against BLUFOR's more modern fighters. 

 

 

[bies]

For now 1985 Soviet era Su-27S is impossible. All we can root for is 1985 Su-27S being possible to model as full fidelity module some day in the future.

Russian era 2005 Su-27SM would be totally unrealistic, with made up flight performace, completely fictional sensors, avionics, weapons, MFD pages. Basically as (un)realistic as amateur made Su-30 MOD, which is already available. Everything is strictly classified, without access to any documentation or SME.

Su-35 from 2015, decade more recent even compared to relatively transparent our US DCS 2005 F/A-18 or 2007 F-16 (or 2006 F-22 Raptor), and being the most modern Russia aircraft, would be a joke, with totally made up everything.

Edited August 11, 2024 by bies

[F-2]

3 hours ago, bies said:

For now 1985 Soviet era Su-27S is impossible. All we can root for is 1985 Su-27S will be possible to model as full fidelity module some day in the future.

Russian era 2005 Su-27SM would be totally unrealistic, with made up flight performace, completely fictional sensors, avionics, weapons, MFD pages. Basically as (un)realistic as amateur made Su-30 MOD, which is already available.

Su-35 from 2015, far more recent even compared to relatively transparent US 2005 F/A-18 or 2007 F-16 or 2006 F-22 Raptor, and being the most modern Russia aircraft, would be a joke, with totally made up everything.

Flight performance of an SM should be close to identical with the Su-27S. The N001V is basically to the N001 that the N019M is to the N019.

[upyr1]

On 8/9/2024 at 2:42 PM, Keller1 said:

I know REDFOR players arent the largest chunk in the game, but there are quite a few of us and im always stuck feeling like REDFOR is a step behind when it comes to CAP. sure you got your shorter range r-77s on the mig, and J-11, but they are super easy to defeat and unless u own the JF-17 the R-77 is all you got more or less. the R-27 family just doesnt stand up to the SPAMRAAM, and i think itd be nice to see maybe a Su-27M or a Su-35S with R77-1s. The Su-30SM mod is a great start and have been able to dig up a plethora of information on Su-35 and Su-30 aircraft, and they are just dudes making cool stuff in their free time, the Su-30SM mod adds quite a lot including R77-1s, R77Ms, even the hypersonic R-37M, and a 80ish% clickable cockpit. I feel like giving REDFOR a flaming cliffs style, or full fidelity standalone module would be a big win and possibly bring back REDFOR mains who are waiting for something new. 

 

Ive seen many servers who just edit the default su-27 and su-33 loadouts to give them things like PL-12s and R77s just so they can keep up with the more advanced BLUFOR jets. I believe this will mend the gap and even the odds a little more between BLUFOR and REDFOR when it comes to BVR engagements. The Su-27M and Su-35S would also open up to better A/G configurations similar to the F-15E and other BLUFOR jets. 

 

As far as balancing goes, I'm not sure if any BLUFOR aircraft have a PESA radar or not, and I know the earlier Su-35S had one. I'm not some Radar guru but im sure PESA would beat out a PD radar and for the sake of keeping things fair that'd be hard to get around. I suppose there must be a Su-27M or Su-35S that at least had a PD radar at one point, and maybe that block can be the one in the game. I suppose thats for the devs to figure out if they like the idea. 

 

For me personally it was the Su-27 that got me into the game, and I still love the flanker, But I find that Just to get a chance jousting a BLUFOR jet, I gotta use R77-1s, and even then im still usually outranged by the AMRAAM. I've found with the Su-30SM mod's configuration of the missile at high altitude youve got about 40-60kms in a head on engagement, and watching replays it seems the amraam floats around the same area. Is the Su-30SM mod's version totally accurate? probably not, but its the best I have to go off of at the moment. 

 

All im saying, I think it'd be huge to get another REDFOR module that can keep things spicy against BLUFOR's more modern fighters. 

 

 

There are only two options here AI or mods. 

[Zahnatom]

On 8/11/2024 at 5:17 AM, upyr1 said:

There are only two options here AI or mods. 

and ED doesnt want mods...

so this is a complete dead end. ED wont make new russian missiles and doesnt support modded modern missiles (in fact they dont support modded missiles at all)

big shame

Edited August 14, 2024 by Zahnatom

[Mike_Romeo]

Only real modern redfor plane we might see at some point are Chinese Su-30 by Deka Ironworks. They are working on a Su-30 for some while and who knows if it becomes more.

[upyr1]

1 hour ago, Zahnatom said:

and ED doesnt want mods...

so this is a complete dead end. ED wont make new russian missiles and doesnt support modded modern missiles (in fact they dont support modded missiles at all)

big shame

 

users can and do mod DCS, it's just a use at your own risk situation. The issue is simple, ED won't put something in DCS without enough information and it's hard to get up-to-date information on RedFor equipment. 

[Zahnatom]

1 minute ago, upyr1 said:

users can and do mod DCS, it's just a use at your own risk situation. The issue is simple, ED won't put something in DCS without enough information and it's hard to get up-to-date information on RedFor equipment. 

Chizh clearly stated that they do not support any weapons mods as users tend to complain to ED when there's mod problems

[upyr1]

1 minute ago, Zahnatom said:

Chizh clearly stated that they do not support any weapons mods as users tend to complain to ED when there's mod problems

As I said you use mods at your own risk. There's a big difference between saying "ED doesn't want mods" and saying "users use mods at their own risk". The simple fact ED provides information about modding DCS and even has a section on the forum about modding DCS 

https://forum.dcs.world/forum/69-dcs-modding/

Indicates that ED expects to see the community mod DCS. However as I said before, you use a mod at your own risk as they won't provide debugging support to the mod as that would be the responsibility of the mod developer. As it can be hard to get accurate information for modern red for we're left with export planes like the JF-17 and the Peace Pearl prototype and 1980s models like the Fulcrum A  as being the only official flyable options. The bar is lower for AI since we don't need the interface  

55 minutes ago, Mike_Romeo said:

Only real modern redfor plane we might see at some point are Chinese Su-30 by Deka Ironworks. They are working on a Su-30 for some while and who knows if it becomes more.

I'd be shocked if this goes any place

[Zahnatom]

28 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

As I said you use mods at your own risk. There's a big difference between saying "ED doesn't want mods" and saying "users use mods at their own risk". The simple fact ED provides information about modding DCS and even has a section on the forum about modding DCS 

 

i said they dont support weapons mods.

 

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

On 8/14/2024 at 7:10 AM, Mike_Romeo said:

Only real modern redfor plane we might see at some point are Chinese Su-30 by Deka Ironworks. They are working on a Su-30 for some while and who knows if it becomes more.

I wouldn't bet on it. Loopback makes it pretty clear in point 1 and 3.

I'd honestly expect a J-10 sooner since, apparently, certain marks of it are using the same avionics as the JF-17.

[F-2]

20 hours ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

I wouldn't bet on it. Loopback makes it pretty clear in point 1 and 3.

I'd honestly expect a J-10 sooner since, apparently, certain marks of it are using the same avionics as the JF-17.

Same HUD and UFC, similar MFD symbology apparently derived from IaI’s F-5E III upgrade package which is used on the J-10. Radar is a smaller version of the J-10 radar.

[Pavlin_33]

I would argue that even though 27ER is no match to 120C, it's still in the same league so to speak. Sure it's not an active missile, but can be employed against the AMRAAM and has a good range, especially when lofted. Unfortunately it looses energy way faster.

[bies]

The most important factor when it comes to losing energy is missile's diameter.

With AIM-120 they were able to reduce its diameter to 7 inches (178mm), when AIM-7, R-27, R-77 (or Chinese 'AMRAAM' PL-12/SD-10) had 8 inches (200-203mm) what significantly increased their drag.

R-27ER had additional segment with 260mm diameter, this was a massive drag increase, making the missile slowing down way faster. A design compromise.

Edited September 2, 2024 by bies

[Pavlin_33]

On 8/19/2024 at 11:37 PM, bies said:

The most important factor when it comes to losing energy is missile diameter.

With AIM-120 they were able to reduce its diameter to 7 inches diameter (178mm), when AIM-7, R-27, R-77 (or Chinese 'AMRAAM' PL-12/SD-10) had 8 inches (200-203mm) what significantly increased their drag.

R-27ER had additional segment with 260mm diameter, this was a massive drag increase, making the missile slow down way faster. A design compromise.

A bit off topic, but if the D is such a factor for drag, where does that place the AIM-54? It would fly likea log once the motor burns out.

[ricktoberfest]

4 minutes ago, Pavlin_33 said:

A bit off topic, but if the D is such a factor for drag, where does that place the AIM-54? It would fly likea log once the motor burns out.

That’s why it’s a high altitude missile where the air is thin. Down low its range is very limited. 

[Pavlin_33]

1 minute ago, ricktoberfest said:

That’s why it’s a high altitude missile where the air is thin. Down low its range is very limited. 

Hmm... I could be wrong, but I don't remember it being especially "draggy" at medium to low alts. Of course I would have to test this, as my impressions/memories are not very objective.

[ricktoberfest]

39 minutes ago, Pavlin_33 said:

Hmm... I could be wrong, but I don't remember it being especially "draggy" at medium to low alts. Of course I would have to test this, as my impressions/memories are not very objective.

Depends when you last tried I suppose. There were updates a while back. Now on the deck you might get 10 miles out of it. 

[Gunfreak]

3 hours ago, ricktoberfest said:

Depends when you last tried I suppose. There were updates a while back. Now on the deck you might get 10 miles out of it. 

Which is true for all medium range missiles in DCS.

AMRAAM C can reach out and touch someone at almost 60nm under ideal circumstances. Get down to 6000 feet and the same missile is almost useless at 14nm

[bies]

On 8/31/2024 at 11:34 PM, Gunfreak said:

Which is true for all medium range missiles in DCS.

AMRAAM C can reach out and touch someone at almost 60nm under ideal circumstances. Get down to 6000 feet and the same missile is almost useless at 14nm

Yes but bigger diameter missiles like R-33, R-27ER or AIM-54 or medium diameter like AIM-7, R-27, R-77, PL-10 are losing energy significantly faster in dense air compared to e.g. AIM-120.

Edited September 2, 2024 by bies

[F-2]

Found a CV from a former NASIC. Some documents of interest.

• Su-35 THRUST VECTORING Engineering Analysis Report 18-May-1995
• FLANKER Comparison Analysis Report 24-Apr-1995
• FLANKER Su-35 Background Engineering Report 12-Dec-1994
• FLANKER Su-35 Performance Analysis Report 26-0ct-1994
 

I know from talking with someone from the UK equivalent they had some access to official documentation obtained in the early 90s.

[Irisz]

 

I got the high resolution picture, unfortunately not Su-37 Cockpit but Su-35!

Edited September 19, 2024 by Irisz

[Gunfreak]

Is that seriously a Su35? 

That looks like something from the 50s with with some 80s tv screens bolted on.

[virgo47]

2 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

Is that seriously a Su35? 

That looks like something from the 50s with with some 80s tv screens bolted on.

Well, 50s is perhaps a bit exaggerated, but it's not impressively modern for sure. And likely anything sophisticated comes from Kazakhstan. (I mean France, of course.)

[Gunfreak]

20 minutes ago, virgo47 said:

Well, 50s is perhaps a bit exaggerated, but it's not impressively modern for sure. And likely anything sophisticated comes from Kazakhstan. (I mean France, of course.)

Those gauges and stick doesn't look too different from a MiG21. The stick also looks top heavy. Like you could rip it out and use it as a medieval mace.