Petition to Prioritize MiG-21 Update? Anyone?

[303_Kermit]

I'm ready to pay 2x as much for proper MiG-21 FAMILY made the way how Heatblur did their F-4 Phantom II
MiG-21F-13
MiG-21FL
MiG-21PF/PFM
MiG-21SMT
MiG-21MF
MiG-21R
MiG-21bis both variants (face lifting. new 3d new Flight model, new damage model, exactly modelled systems).

Stop neglecting fans of Cold War era aviation. To be honest... MiG-21 family vs F-4 Family .... Mi-24 /Mi-2/Mi-8 vs UH-1H/AH-1G/CH-47C, solid portion of A2G attack planes of both sides + that what's promised F-104, A-7, A-6, A-1 ... and I'll forget anything else exist in dcs... F-16? F18? MiG-29? A-10? Su-25/27/33....? “Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.”

Edited September 5, 2024 by 303_Kermit

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

I'm all for more additions to the Fishbed family. I'd love an F-13, I'd love that horrible fat turd that is the SMT, I'd murder for a 21-93 or a LanceR. I'll take any Fishbed. I eagerly await Fishbed updates and I'd happily pay for more variants without an once of hesitation. It's only now with the release of the F-4 am I finally not flying the MiG-21 in the sense that it's my primary.

But, there's only so many devs, so much time, and so much effort that can be put into this.

Edited September 5, 2024 by MiG21bisFishbedL

[Schmidtfire]

11 hours ago, 303_Kermit said:

Stop neglecting fans of Cold War era aviation. To be honest... MiG-21 family vs F-4 Family .... Mi-24 /Mi-2/Mi-8 vs UH-1H/AH-1G/CH-47C, solid portion of A2G attack planes of both sides + that what's promised F-104, A-7, A-6, A-1 ... and I'll forget anything else exist in dcs... F-16? F18? MiG-29? A-10? Su-25/27/33....? “Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.”

You do realize that F-16, F18, MiG-29, A-10, Su-25/27 are all aircrafts from the Cold War era? 

Edited September 5, 2024 by Schmidtfire

[303_Kermit]

On 9/5/2024 at 10:53 PM, Schmidtfire said:

You do realize that F-16, F18, MiG-29, A-10, Su-25/27 are all aircrafts from the Cold War era? 

 

"The devil lies between the details"
F-16A - yes , it's pure CW plane. Very modern for the time F-16A bl.15ocu from 1988, would be perfect adversary for MiG-29A. F-16C bl.25 from 1984, very late CW and very needed. But armed in AiM-120 and AiM9X F-16CM in DCS ? Nope. Very far past that era.
F18A - Cold war plane, Eldorado Canyon was serious combat operation. Operation Prairie Fire was key part of it. I'll never deny. But F-18C - it's first serious action was Desert Storm 1991 (according to most historians it's last year of cold war as such). Not a cold war plane
Su-25 - that one is true late cold war plane. my only problem with it is, that it's main area of operations was Afghanistan. rather one sided campaign. For middle east conflicts, Vietnam war conflicts, India vs Pakistan conflicts - we need different birds. The same case is with A-10. First combat use 1991 Persian Gulf. 
MiG-29A - some very limited numbers of cheaper versions of that plane (with downgraded avionics and radar from MiG-23) saw combat during later stage of Iran-Iraq but Saddam bought them not sooner than 1989. Their first serious action was... Desert Storm 1991. So - however MiG-29A was king of the sky of second half of '80 it didn't saw true action during cold war, except Farnborough Air Show ;-). Using them in every possible cw scenario is pure fantasy. one may use F-15E, B-1B, B-2, Tu-160 etc. if we follow that logic... Bollocks.
Su-27 - officially entered service in 1990. CCCP collapsed one year later 1991. Before that marvelous plane truly entered service, (pilots need to learn new plane, new tactic has to be developed etc. etc.) CCCP collapsed and cold war was over. It's not cold war plane, but it's rather last hurrah! of CCCP aircraft industry.

So.... Do you realize that none of DCS plane you mentioned is actually cold war era combat plane?

Edited September 27, 2024 by 303_Kermit

[Spirale]

1 hour ago, 303_Kermit said:

"The devil lies between the details"
F-16A - yes , it's pure CW plane. F-16C b.10-25 very late CW but acceptable, but armed in AiM-120 and AiM9X F-16CM in DCS ? Nope. Very far past that era.
F18A - Cold war plane, Eldorado Canyon was serious combat operation. Operation Prairie Fire was key part of it. I'll never deny. But F-18C - it's first serious action was Desert Storm 1991 (according to most historians it's last year of cold war as such). Not a cold war plane
Su-25 - that one is true late cold war plane. my only problem with it is, that it's main area of operations was Afghanistan. rather one sided campaign. For middle east conflicts, Vietnam war conflicts, India vs Pakistan conflicts - we need different birds. The same case is with A-10. First combat use 1991 Persian Gulf. 
MiG-29A - some very limited numbers of cheaper versions of that plane (with downgraded avionics and radar from MiG-23) saw combat during later stage of Iran-Iraq but Saddam bought them not sooner than 1989. Their first serious action was... Desert Storm 1991. So - however MiG-29A was king of the sky of second half of '80 it didn't saw true action during cold war, except Farnborough Air Show ;-). Using them in every possible cw scenario is pure fantasy. one may use F-15E, B-1B, B-2, Tu-160 etc. if we follow that logic... Bollocks.
Su-27 - officially entered service in 1990. CCCP collapsed one year later 1991. Before that marvelous plane truly entered service, (pilots need to learn new plane, new tactic has to be developed etc. etc.) CCCP collapsed and cold war was over. It's not cold war plane, but it's rather last hurrah! of CCCP aircraft industry.

So.... Do you realize that none of DCS plane you mentioned is actually cold war era combat plane?

 

Great post

[Snappy]

1 hour ago, 303_Kermit said:

"The devil lies between the details"
F-16A - yes , it's pure CW plane. F-16C b.10-25 very late CW but acceptable, but armed in AiM-120 and AiM9X F-16CM in DCS ? Nope. Very far past that era.
F18A - Cold war plane, Eldorado Canyon was serious combat operation. Operation Prairie Fire was key part of it. I'll never deny. But F-18C - it's first serious action was Desert Storm 1991 (according to most historians it's last year of cold war as such). Not a cold war plane
Su-25 - that one is true late cold war plane. my only problem with it is, that it's main area of operations was Afghanistan. rather one sided campaign. For middle east conflicts, Vietnam war conflicts, India vs Pakistan conflicts - we need different birds. The same case is with A-10. First combat use 1991 Persian Gulf. 
MiG-29A - some very limited numbers of cheaper versions of that plane (with downgraded avionics and radar from MiG-23) saw combat during later stage of Iran-Iraq but Saddam bought them not sooner than 1989. Their first serious action was... Desert Storm 1991. So - however MiG-29A was king of the sky of second half of '80 it didn't saw true action during cold war, except Farnborough Air Show ;-). Using them in every possible cw scenario is pure fantasy. one may use F-15E, B-1B, B-2, Tu-160 etc. if we follow that logic... Bollocks.
Su-27 - officially entered service in 1990. CCCP collapsed one year later 1991. Before that marvelous plane truly entered service, (pilots need to learn new plane, new tactic has to be developed etc. etc.) CCCP collapsed and cold war was over. It's not cold war plane, but it's rather last hurrah! of CCCP aircraft industry.

So.... Do you realize that none of DCS plane you mentioned is actually cold war era combat plane?

 

Well, agree on the F-16A and F-18A.

However, cold war aircraft are not being defined by having seen actual combat action during cold war , so Mig-29A should definitely be in.

Also, not sure where you got that 1990 entry into service for the Su-27. It started to serve in mid eighties (85) already with both the VVS&PVO.
Otherwise it would beg the question how one managed to collide with a norwegian  P-3 in 87 already.

Edited September 6, 2024 by Snappy

[303_Kermit]

44 minutes ago, Snappy said:

Also, not sure where you got that 1990 entry into service for the Su-27.

The production Su-27 (sometimes Su-27S, NATO designation 'Flanker-B') began to enter VVS operational service in 1985, although manufacturing difficulties kept it from appearing in strength until 1990.

Source: "Airplanes - Military Aircraft - Su-27SÊ - Historical background". Sukhoi Company (JSC). Archived from the original on 14 February 2015. Retrieved 4 February 2015.
link:https://web.archive.org/web/20150214080912/http://www.sukhoi.org/eng/planes/military/su27sk/history/

[Snappy]

1 hour ago, 303_Kermit said:

The production Su-27 (sometimes Su-27S, NATO designation 'Flanker-B') began to enter VVS operational service in 1985, although manufacturing difficulties kept it from appearing in strength until 1990.

Source: "Airplanes - Military Aircraft - Su-27SÊ - Historical background". Sukhoi Company (JSC). Archived from the original on 14 February 2015. Retrieved 4 February 2015.
link:https://web.archive.org/web/20150214080912/http://www.sukhoi.org/eng/planes/military/su27sk/history/

Which is what I wrote , 85. You were the one who claimed an entry into the service date of 1990.

So definitely cold war.

 

Edited September 6, 2024 by Snappy

[303_Kermit]

16 minutes ago, Snappy said:

Which is what I wrote , 85. You were the one who claimed an entry into the service date of 1990.

So definitely cold war.

 

 

I would rather say barely cold war. Wasn't used in any conflict until 1992.
and after wikipedia:

It's last huraaah!. Not the main stream plane as we see in most scenarios.

Edited September 6, 2024 by 303_Kermit

[Snappy]

1 hour ago, 303_Kermit said:

I would rather say barely cold war. Wasn't used in any conflict until 1992.
and after wikipedia:

It's last huraaah!. Not the main stream plane as we see in most scenarios.

 

Wikipedia is not the most accurate source in that regard. Here you go for a much much more detailed listing, including prototypes , pre production dates ,etc etc.

https://www.milavia.net/aircraft/su-27/su-27_history.htm

Other than that  the wikipedia article is already directly contradicting itself there with the aircraft supposedly not being in service , but already colliding with the Orion with while actually performing service in 1987. Being fully armed too , that is.

The same wikipedia article also twice mentions entry in to service of 1985, so its full of inconsistencies.

Also, again "cold war aircraft" are by definition not "only aircraft that were actually involved in hot war conflicts during the cold war" . Maybe for you in your head, but not for the rest of us.

Or are you going also going to claim that planes like the B-58 Hustler bomber are not cold war aircraft,  just because they didn't participate in any hot conflict during the cold war period? 
But each to their own.

Edited September 6, 2024 by Snappy

[Schmidtfire]

7 hours ago, 303_Kermit said:

So.... Do you realize that none of DCS plane you mentioned is actually cold war era combat plane?

They are Cold War era designs at heart. Would you consider F-4E Terminator being a modern aircraft? The MiG-21 Bison or Lancer?
 
Yes, the specific F-16 and F-18 models we have in DCS are a bit more modern. But they are still in the Cold War 4th gen (1970-late 1980's) family.
Perhaps counted as 4+.

Even a "modern" weapon like the Amraam was tested as early as 1982 and seems like a very small number was carried during Desert Storm.
so technically that's within the end of the Cold War era.

Edited September 6, 2024 by Schmidtfire

[303_Kermit]

On 9/6/2024 at 7:47 PM, Schmidtfire said:

Would you consider F-4E Terminator being a modern aircraft? The MiG-21 Bison or Lancer?

Definitely. Both modernisations are performed in purpose to extend service of outdated planes and give them capability to fight against modern gen 4 fighters. From my professional point of view - waste of money. just like Italian modifications of F-104.
useless for aerial warfare of '90-2005 but surely not suited for scenario anytime in '60-'70 -'80. Great for War thunder... and only there.

 

On 9/6/2024 at 7:47 PM, Schmidtfire said:

They are Cold War era designs at heart

AiM-9X+AiM-120 vs AiM-9L+AiM-7F/M (there's strong discussion about F-16C bl.25) T/W ratio 1,4 vs 1,05 (0,98 for early F-16C) . Difference between old F-16 and new F-16 is huge. Old one is gen4 fighter and new one is gen 4+. Fact. F-18C is much closer to F-18A, but avionics is main difference. IMO Situation Awareness of F-18C is much better than in his older brother. 

Facts are that F-16 modelled in DCS is not suited to any CW scenario. MiG-29 / Su-27 are much closer. I think it's main tragedy of DCS, that we have very modern F-16CM bl50 and F-18C , instead of F-18A and F-16A/B bl.15(ocm or not) or F-16C/D bl. 25

Anyway.... Stick to the MiG-21 gents. 
 

Edited September 8, 2024 by 303_Kermit

[snocc_]

En 5/9/2024 a las 11:09, 303_Kermit dijo:

I'm ready to pay 2x as much for proper MiG-21 FAMILY made the way how Heatblur did their F-4 Phantom II
MiG-21F-13
MiG-21FL
MiG-21PF/PFM
MiG-21SMT
MiG-21MF
MiG-21R
MiG-21bis both variants (face lifting. new 3d new Flight model, new damage model, exactly modelled systems).

i'd be all over a 21F-13 or PF/PFM module if mag 3 could make one, bis overhaul is also very needed 

[WTFCSon]

-1

 

[303_Kermit]

On 9/9/2024 at 1:34 AM, snocc_ said:

i'd be all over a 21F-13 or PF/PFM module if mag 3 could make one, bis overhaul is also very needed 

I suggest moving the topic to ED - since it's hard to expect , that Magnitude Leatherneck will develop anything soon... God I'd love to fly MiG-21 FL/PF/PFM ... or full fidelity MiG-21bis

Edited September 13, 2024 by 303_Kermit

[nessuno0505]

Just to be clear: I'd be happy and gladly pay for any mig-21 version, BUT I'm ready to pay also for an upgrade of the current mig-21bis, even twice the price I've paid for a-10c 2 or ka-50 3, provided that the upgrade is made with the same fidelity of the other DCS modules.

Edited September 13, 2024 by nessuno0505

[artao]

On 9/13/2024 at 4:59 AM, 303_Kermit said:

I suggest moving the topic to ED - since it's hard to expect , that Magnitude Leatherneck will develop anything soon... God I'd love to fly MiG-21 FL/PF/PFM ... or full fidelity MiG-21bis

 

If only ED would take it over. They haven't been doing "great" recently, but at least they're doing SOMETHING. Mag 3? uhhh .... Updates whenever, no real info. Just ..... I don't really think they're that into it. At all.

23 hours ago, nessuno0505 said:

Just to be clear: I'd be happy and gladly pay for any mig-21 version, BUT I'm ready to pay also for an upgrade of the current mig-21bis, even twice the price I've paid for a-10c 2 or ka-50 3, provided that the upgrade is made with the same fidelity of the other DCS modules.

 

Heyyyy now. Hold your horses there. Let's be careful about saying how much we'll pay for stuff. Modules are already on the high end of pricey.
For real tho, I'd pay a reasonable amount, like 15 to 20 bucks usd, for an update to bring the MiG-21bis up to current standards. While they work on a v2. (Which current owners would of course get a nice discount on. Say ... 30 or 40 bucks usd)

[nessuno0505]

20 bucks is twice the a-10c II upgrade, so I think we agree...

[MAXsenna]

On 9/16/2024 at 11:21 AM, nessuno0505 said:

20 bucks is twice the a-10c II upgrade, so I think we agree...

That's not even two beers out on town here.  

[mariq.marzuki]

+1

MiG-21bis is a fine module but it needs a proper overhaul, some of us have had it for 10 years.

[artao]

On 9/27/2024 at 3:33 AM, mariq.marzuki said:

+1

MiG-21bis is a fine module but it needs a proper overhaul, some of us have had it for 10 years.

Wow. Ten freakin years?

[Schmidtfire]

7 hours ago, artao said:

Wow. Ten freakin years?

It was released in 2014. MiG-21bis release was a big deal back then, everyone I know bought it. It was truly a trailblazer. Up to that point, the only aircraft that had afterburner and
radar was in the FC3 package (not counting the F-86F gun radar).

I think the players of the world has voted. M3 should get back into the MiG-21Business 

Also the pre-launch trailer still kicks ass. One of my favourites:
 

 

[artao]

I honestly don't think Magnitude 3 cares. I get the feeling they think it'd be a chore to work on, and then only begrudgeingly.

HECK!! They haven't even released anything yet, and the Fishbed is 3rd on their "to do" list, at best.
It's time for them to let it go so the community can work on it. They clearly don't care anymore.

[303_Kermit]

Sad but true

[Rudel_chw]

13 hours ago, artao said:

It's time for them to let it go so the community can work on it.

the community is free to develop a mig-21 mod at anytime, no need for M3 to "let it go".