Is OpenXR toolkit still necessary?

slughead · January 3

I haven't used QVFR for a while now. When I did, I only used it for turbo mode, not the QVFR, because you had put a workaround in your QVFR layer to stop DCS crashing when Quest headsets were removed. You didn't push that fix (workaround) into the OpenXR Toolkit. I think I stopped using QVFR during the first half of 2023.

Roosterfeet · January 3

I just wanted turbo enabled and I've found it a lot easier to use openxr tool kit instead of QVFR.

mbucchia · January 3

3 hours ago, slughead said:

I haven't used QVFR for a while now. When I did, I only used it for turbo mode, not the QVFR, because you had put a workaround in your QVFR layer to stop DCS crashing when Quest headsets were removed. You didn't push that fix (workaround) into the OpenXR Toolkit. I think I stopped using QVFR during the first half of 2023.

One could try today and look at the log file to confirm.

The Quest user presence bug is some more Meta incompetence. I reported this specific problem to them. Again, they have no interest in PCVR.

Panzerlang · January 3

53 minutes ago, mbucchia said:

The Quest user presence bug is some more Meta incompetence. I reported this specific problem to them. Again, they have no interest in PCVR.

The suckerberg parasite ethos. I'd love to be a fly on the wall when they interview job candidates.

FupDuck · January 5

On 1/2/2025 at 9:46 PM, mbucchia said:

But AFAICT there are no known issues with DCS at this time for either OpenXR Toolkit and QVFR.

I know you're not supporting the tool anymore, so I don't expect a fix, but just so you're aware, having CAS sharpening enabled in OpenXR toolkit with a setting over 50% or so results in visible vertical lines in VR. They're most noticeable on "flat" backgrounds, like the sea or a clear sky (and also in the DCS hangar). Noticing this is what had me looking into QVFR because at first I thought it was the turbo mode in OpenXR toolkit that was causing it.

Again, just sharing this as an FYI. Thanks again for all your work up till now!

Edited January 6 by FupDuck

Hadeda · January 6

Is there general consensus that QVFR does more harm than good in DCS? I've been using it with a 5800X3D and 4090 but do get a lot of micro-stutters when looking to the side. Is it better to turn it off (but keep turbo mode)?

Qcumber · January 6

3 hours ago, Hadeda said:

Is there general consensus that QVFR does more harm than good in DCS? I've been using it with a 5800X3D and 4090 but do get a lot of micro-stutters when looking to the side. Is it better to turn it off (but keep turbo mode)?

With your setup you will not get any benefit from QVFR. It shifts a lot of the workload to your CPU. I have the same CPU but a 4070 so I see a big improvement. With a 4090 you will just get a CPU bottleneck.

WipeUout · January 6

3 hours ago, Hadeda said:

Is there general consensus that QVFR does more harm than good in DCS? I've been using it with a 5800X3D and 4090 but do get a lot of micro-stutters when looking to the side. Is it better to turn it off (but keep turbo mode)?

In general, QVFR will improve vastly the performance but in DCS, it is always a challenge to balance eye candy and performance.

If you see stutters while looking to the sides, this may be normal as it is more demanding graphically to render side views than front view. Have you tried to lower your setting and see if the stutters are still there? If so, then it is a performance issue and you need to tone down some settings. If not, then there is something running in the background stealing CPU cycles from you. You need to look at what is running while playing and investigate a bit.

Qcumber · January 6

22 minutes ago, WipeUout said:

In general, QVFR will improve vastly the performance but in DCS, it is always a challenge to balance eye candy and performance.

Not with a 4090 and a 5800x3d. It's better to use DFR/FFR from OXRTK with that setup.

j9murphy · January 7

I have a 4090 and 13900k and find that QVFR is a huge improvement to fps without creating stutters or a CPU bottleneck. Just goes to show how many variables and personal preferences are at play here. There are literally millions of possible combinations of settings and software in VR and then we have variation by map, mission, aircraft/helo etc.. I finally quit chasing settings as im sure many have. i found something I could live with that provides a little head room and just tolerate the variations and focus on the mission:)

Hadeda · January 7

I tested it the other day and got very similar results with and without QVFR (using Virtual Desktop). Biggest factor was Turbo Mode. When turned off this had a massive impact on frame times and created a lot of micro stutters.

Qcumber · January 7

2 hours ago, j9murphy said:

I have a 4090 and 13900k and find that QVFR is a huge improvement to fps without creating stutters or a CPU bottleneck. Just goes to show how many variables and personal preferences are at play here. There are literally millions of possible combinations of settings and software in VR and then we have variation by map, mission, aircraft/helo etc.. I finally quit chasing settings as im sure many have. i found something I could live with that provides a little head room and just tolerate the variations and focus on the mission:)

Yes. A 13900k is likely to have plenty of headroom alongside a 4090 so not surprising that QVFR works well for you. The 5800x3d is a good CPU but not as good as the 13900k.

slughead · January 7

I find that with a 13900k and a 4090, low-altitude, fast turns (450kts) over Dubai result in a drop-down into ASW if using quad-views. Disable QV, and it doesn't. Most, if not all, of my settings are maxed out. QVFR burdens any CPU where lots of objects need to be drawn (four times instead of twice). So, for me, QV results in lower performance in my test scenario. Hence, I don't use QV.

Hadeda · January 8

16 hours ago, slughead said:

I find that with a 13900k and a 4090, low-altitude, fast turns (450kts) over Dubai result in a drop-down into ASW if using quad-views. Disable QV, and it doesn't. Most, if not all, of my settings are maxed out. QVFR burdens any CPU where lots of objects need to be drawn (four times instead of twice). So, for me, QV results in lower performance in my test scenario. Hence, I don't use QV.

And you don't use OpenXR Toolkit either for DFR or FFR? I'm still using that as I can't load Turbo Mode on its own using QV.

Bounti30 · January 21

Question for experienced users
I use a mid-range PC with the quest 2.
For me OpenXR toolkit is essential with turbo mode.
Why such a difference? how does this mode work and can't it be natively integrated into DCS?

slughead · January 21

On 1/8/2025 at 9:40 AM, Hadeda said:

And you don't use OpenXR Toolkit either for DFR or FFR? I'm still using that as I can't load Turbo Mode on its own using QV.

Sorry, Missed this. No, I don't use any form of FR.

Tensorial_Architect · January 21

13900k and 4090 here, OXRTK does nothing for me (MBucchia recommends not using it). Quad Views with my Quest Pro really does work well. Best situation I have ever had in VR for enemy plane spotting during ACM.

mbucchia · January 22

10 hours ago, Bounti30 said:

Question for experienced users
I use a mid-range PC with the quest 2.
For me OpenXR toolkit is essential with turbo mode.
Why such a difference? how does this mode work and can't it be natively integrated into DCS?

Turbo mode is a gigantic hack around the OpenXR interface (meaning it purposely misuses OpenXR) that bypasses artificial frame timing limitations introduced by platform developers. It was originally introduced as a workaround to a bug on the now defunct WMR platform (HP Reverb), but it (accidentally) turned out to expose the same issue on nearly all platforms. Quest Link is one of the worst offender and Meta is purposely capping your performance.

(source: I am the guy who wrote Turbo mode)

Why is Quest purposely slowing down your game? I honestly don't know. What I know for sure is that Quest is not a platform for PCVR gaming, because Meta does not care about this scenario and will not solve such flagrant issues.

It isn't the responsibility of app developers (DCS) to workaround inherent deficiencies of the VR platforms that the platform vendor refuses to fix for >2 years.

Tl;dr: don't count on Meta to give you a good PCVR experience.

Tensorial_Architect · January 23

I agree with you fully Mbucchia but if you discount the Meta stuff and the G2 is no longer a go with WMR being removed, that leaves either super-expensive Varjo or Pimax. Theoretically, if Pimax ever got all their issues sorted, they could, ... (key word here, ... "could") ... become the premier main-tier headset offerings but they have too many issues. That means that once the typical simmer walks the full circle, ... they (sadly) arrive back at the same place, .... Meta.

(Trust me, I don't like Meta, their policies, or Zuckerberg)

Edited January 26 by Tensorial_Architect

Splashtrick68 · January 27

I hadn't picked up the sticks and my G2 in a few months, and anyway.. despite a few updates my overall experience in VR is still good, however.. looking at cockpit and similar lots of stuttering/jitters.

I'm still on Windows 10, I have a 5800x w/32gb and a 4080 I've still got my Companion App and have turned off/on a number of features (turbo as well) and while my overall visuals are great, looking down in cockpit will literally shift me outta the F14/16 or 18.. I hit the 5 key and re-center.

I've always been used to a bit of a tradeoff and some imperfections, I'm not looking for a perfect experience but I'd like to stay INSIDE THE COCKPIT when I look down and adjust any number of controls

I've gone in and cleared the shader/FXO folder after the updates.. GPU and CPU staying reasonable (no different than before).

I have a Quest 2 as well but have preferred the G2. I realize the G2 and probably Quest are near end of life lol, I may grab a Quest 3 but I assume it'd be the same problem on a different piece of hardware?

Here's a few screenshots of settings, anything stand out to you folks as a glaring OUCH?

jurinko · January 28

Set shadows off. Are you using steamvr or openxr as runtime?

When I had g2, my best performance was setting the max fps to 93 in the openxr toolkit and running it at native 90hz with steamvr. Openxr had poor quality. In dcs, set fps to 300 or whatever.

Splashtrick68 · January 29

On 1/27/2025 at 3:13 PM, Splashtrick68 said:

I hadn't picked up the sticks and my G2 in a few months, and anyway.. despite a few updates my overall experience in VR is still good, however.. looking at cockpit and similar lots of stuttering/jitters.

I'm still on Windows 10, I have a 5800x w/32gb and a 4080 I've still got my Companion App and have turned off/on a number of features (turbo as well) and while my overall visuals are great, looking down in cockpit will literally shift me outta the F14/16 or 18.. I hit the 5 key and re-center.

I've always been used to a bit of a tradeoff and some imperfections, I'm not looking for a perfect experience but I'd like to stay INSIDE THE COCKPIT when I look down and adjust any number of controls

I've gone in and cleared the shader/FXO folder after the updates.. GPU and CPU staying reasonable (no different than before).

I have a Quest 2 as well but have preferred the G2. I realize the G2 and probably Quest are near end of life lol, I may grab a Quest 3 but I assume it'd be the same problem on a different piece of hardware?

Here's a few screenshots of settings, anything stand out to you folks as a glaring OUCH?

An Update.

As mentioned, I have a Quest 2 sitting around (had given up using it in past for DCS/PCVR).

Frustrated after tinkering/adjusting etc. I stumbled across a few posts here talking about the virtues of Virtual Desktop and folks having success with it. Anyway, I went ahead and connected by Quest 2 and after adjusting *nothing* in the above settings, I tinkered a bit and after figuring out I don't want SteamVR as my environment, I figured out the settings and I think I stuck with HEVC10(or + I don't remember) it just works. The colors and other aspects aren't as pleasing as the G2 but no stutter, no jitter nada. I'll dial in some settings a little and probably update to the Quest 3 but in the end, I'm going to sell the G2 V2 (extra headset too) for whatever I can get on Ebay.

A win for me and this virtual desktop coupled with an aging Quest 2. Much better.

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Is OpenXR toolkit still necessary?

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