The Hellfire Deathray

[ericinexile]

This missile has made life so impossible for (the virtual Russian) me that I've begun editing out AH-1s and AH-64s in GOW campaign missions and replacing them with Georgian Mi-24Vs. I hate to cheat but I have not found a counter other than being lucky enough to be near cover. Sometimes beaming the laser source and getting below treetop level (thank god for fake trees) will spoof a few...but rarely all. My ATGMs are worthless against moving airborn targets. R73s aren't a Ka50 option. What's a non-fire-and-forget-weapon-possessing combat pilot to do? I really pity Russian helo squadrons should they face this missile in a future conflict where they don't enjoy complete air superiority. American attack helos have been kicked out of my sandbox. Good riddance.

 

Smokin' Hole

 

[Edit: I just learned that neither the AH-1 nor the AH-64 carry fire-and-forget ATGMs. Oh well I guess I'm just outclassed by the AI pilot, not the helicopter/missile.]

Edited June 2, 2009 by ericinexile

[Shotsx74]

Tis the operator, not the chopper.

[SUBS17]

Hellfire is fire and forget and so to is the Maverick.

[sobek]

If you're being lased, get some speed built up, the hellfire has a very limited turning rate. I have never been hit by one when i kept moving.

[Jack57]

I resorted to mapping a joystick button to padlock view. When in air to air mode it will lock the nearest enemy chopper. If you then press and hold the target lock button the Shkval will track to and lock onto your current padlocked target. Wait until they are tracking somewhat toward or away from you (so the missile has a chance of tracking the target) and then fire 2 missiles about 1 sec apart.

I my experience this rarely fails. Good hunting :pilotfly:

[slug88]

Hellfire is fire and forget and so to is the Maverick.

 

I thought the Hellfire was laser guided?

 

Edit:

Nevermind, it seems the AGM-114L 'Longbow Hellfire' is indeed fire and forget. The rest of the Hellfires are laser-homing, however.

Edited June 2, 2009 by slug88

[sobek]

I thought the Hellfire was laser guided?

 

There are 2 versions of it, one has active radar homing and one passive laser homing.

[connos]

This missile has made life so impossible for (the virtual Russian) me that I've begun editing out AH-1s and AH-64s in GOW campaign missions and replacing them with Georgian Mi-24Vs. I hate to cheat but I have not found a counter other than being lucky enough to be near cover. Sometimes beaming the laser source and getting below treetop level (thank god for fake trees) will spoof a few...but rarely all. My ATGMs are worthless against moving airborn targets. R73s aren't a Ka50 option. What's a non-fire-and-forget-weapon-possessing combat pilot to do? I really pity Russian helo squadrons should they face this missile in a future conflict where they don't enjoy complete air superiority. American attack helos have been kicked out of my sandbox. Good riddance.

 

Smokin' Hole

 

[Edit: I just learned that neither the AH-1 nor the AH-64 carry fire-and-forget ATGMs. Oh well I guess I'm just outclassed by the AI pilot, not the helicopter/missile.]

 

What i am doing is... When i know there may be Apaches or Cobras in the area i ingress, hover above a sam site (there is usually one near the ingress point) or i use the ground forces (A/A) to cover me. You must be very careful not to rush in. Keep a distance and try with the help of your wingman to spot them first. Also i change the wingman skill to good or even more. They are supost to be dificult to beat. I had the same issues like you but after i changed my tactic it was possible to beat them with the help of ground forces A/A and my wingman.

[EtherealN]

I hate to cheat but I have not found a counter other than being lucky enough to be near cover.

 

This here seems to me to be where you are making a mistake - having cover accessible should never be a question of luck. You might be flying too high (I normally try to stay within 20 meters AGL as an upper limit unless I'm in an otherwise covered position and need some more altitude to do a popup) and/or have followed the flight plan too slavishly. Don't fly on the actual flight plan, just see where the plan wants to take you and while en route deviate slightly if that is necessary to keep you in cover.

 

And when entering the hot zone, be sure to scout it out a bit first and then make sure to have a fast escape route.

[ericinexile]

Thanks for all the above advice. As for cover, its not always there when the adversary is at 300m and has a commanding view of a flattish battlefield. I set up a simple H2H at 15km with a AH-64D and I tried everything. It was easy if I just ran away the instant I was lased because the Apaches in DCS fly slow. If there was cover, I could snuggle up to that and settle for the eventual gunfight. But taking on the Hellfire is suicide. There is no spoofing it. Watching the tracks with Tacview is pretty interesting. The missile lofts and then takes on an intelligent track much like a modern AAM (and much unlike the vikhr).

[BOSS330]

[Edit: I just learned that neither the AH-1 nor the AH-64 carry fire-and-forget ATGMs. Oh well I guess I'm just outclassed by the AI pilot, not the helicopter/missile.]

 

Just to clear things up for you, there are 2 types of Hellfires in service. The AH-64A can only carry the AGM-114K (laser guided) ATGM. This missile is NOT fire-and-forget, the gunner must lase the target until impact.

 

The AH-64D is equipped with the FCR (Fire Control Radar), which means it can scan up to 8km for air and around 6km for ground targets in the respective modes. The "D" model Apache can fire both the AGM-114K (laser guided) and AGM-114L (radar guided) ATGM's, the latter of which is in fact "fire-and forget" when launched in LOAL (Lock-On After Launch) mode only.

 

The AGM-114K is limited to 6km when acquiring targets with the TADS (Target Acquisition And Designation Sight) but the effective range can be extended when the the TADS is slaved to the FCR. (for the "D" models)

 

Hope this makes sense. :)

 

The Vikhr is the better ATGM here as it's optimum velocity is nearly twice that of the hellfire. Though the Vikhr has a smaller seeker FOV (field of view).

[ericinexile]

The Vikhr is the better ATGM here as it's optimum velocity is nearly twice that of the hellfire. Though the Vikhr has a smaller seeker FOV (field of view).

 

While the the Vikhr might be a better ATGM, it is a far inferior AAM.

Edited June 2, 2009 by ericinexile

[EtherealN]

Question in response to that, does the 114K and/or 114L have fragmentation setting with proximity fuse for A2A work? 'cause if not I would actually say that the Vikhr is superior against air targets as well.

 

It's just that evading any missile that is locked on with any slow-mover (like a helo) is very very difficult, in all cases, since it is very difficult to make the missile bleed it's energy through maneuvering, and you don't have the speed to outrun the missiles either. So in general, A2A is one of those missions you should be capable of performing, but it's not something you should be doing as an actual objective. Target of opportunity or defence only.

[ericinexile]

If you're being lased, get some speed built up, the hellfire has a very limited turning rate. I have never been hit by one when i kept moving.

 

Really!?!?

 

I need to watch you fly then because I have never outflown more than four shots in row in my Head to Head test mission over a relatively flat portion of Georgia. I have tried beaming at 280 kph, I've tried tuning tail and running, I've tried S-turning with the laser designator striking my left and right rear-quarter aspect and I've tried facing the attacker and translating laterally at 100+ kph. All flown at treetop hight and all resulting in my eventual death. I even tried a loop (which actually did work until a third ATGM smacked me on the pull out.)

[EtherealN]

The rate-of-turn evasion is heavily dependant on range. If you are close in your radial velocity will be much greater (and thereby might allow you to evade) than if you are far away.

 

However, I have never tried that evasion technique against Hellfires myself - I always dive straight in behind a building or hill or, if I have reason to believe it's a lased missile and I am close enough, I attempt to destroy the launching aircraft before the missile hits. This is... difficult... though.

[fox_111]

Question in response to that, does the 114K and/or 114L have fragmentation setting with proximity fuse for A2A work? 'cause if not I would actually say that the Vikhr is superior against air targets as well.

 

I heard from an apache weapon technitian that the current hellfire missil deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan lack a fragmentation belt and that it is curently being added.

 

They are basically an EFP (Explosive Formed Penetrator), with some varient that are more in the line of a fuel air explosive.

 

That's why there are many videos of soft skinned veh. being hit direcly by an hellfire and seeing people running out. (To be taken out by 30mm or dying from lung bleeding later...)

 

So, it's safe to say that the Hellfires, unless ED added the newer blast belt, are low on the fragmentation side.

[EvilBivol-1]

The Vikhr is the better ATGM here as it's optimum velocity is nearly twice that of the hellfire. Though the Vikhr has a smaller seeker FOV (field of view).

The Vikhr doesn't have a seeker at all.

[fox_111]

Maybe he ment the FOV of the laser tracker in it's rear. Meaning the missil can only do straight lines fromt origin to target.

[McVittees]

to: ericinexile

 

I feel your pain. I've been bumping my head against the wall trying to develop tactics to defeat Apaches. They really spoil my day. I haven't resorted to editing them out of missions, but I have edited win conditions so that even if they decimate my forces, I win so long as I avoid them and destroy my objective.:smartass:

 

One thing that makes them so deadly is the relative ease and speed with which it seems they can lock you up and get a round off. Maybe it's much easier in the Apache than the Ka-50, but it seems the AI can be doing all kinds of rolling and diving and then seconds later swing round to face you and instantly loose off a Hellfire. There doesn't seem to be much re-acquisition / 'button mashing' time modeled once the AI know where you are.:cry:

Edited June 2, 2009 by McVittees

[GGTharos]

Realize that the apache is a two-person chopper with one guy dodging you and the other guy ready to shoot you at a moment's notice, each with their independent highly sophisticated sensor system ...

[Dusty Rhodes]

Also realize that the D model Apache, if other sims are to be believed, has 360 degree coverage of it's air to air radar. So it can jink and jive all it wants and still keep you locked up and then fire the second it gets it nose on you or within the edges of it's firing envelope.

[HansRoaming]

Reading EdMacy's review the Ka-50 is like a Longbow in revision mode, the Blackshark is simply a generation behind it seems.

[ericinexile]

Also realize that the D model Apache, if other sims are to be believed, has 360 degree coverage of it's air to air radar. So it can jink and jive all it wants and still keep you locked up and then fire the second it gets it nose on you or within the edges of it's firing envelope.

 

That begs another question: the loadout screen for the D model only states "AGM-114" without denoting the missile type. When I'm attacked by Longbow I always get a continuous laser warning. Is that just ED being nice and compensating for the lack of a RWS (doubt that) or is the LB radar used to direct the laser which paints the target for the AGM? Otherwise, why ever get a laser warning with a longbow packing a 114L?

[GGTharos]

Typically I think Apaches still mainly carry the laser hellfire, so the enemy has to paint you.

[ericinexile]

^^^

 

Yep. Debrief says 114K. That's some consolation. Even better? The Excellent AI pilots are sooooo bloody stupid. They'll drive right over your head at 80 kts.