Is there a way to identify targets with the Shkval?

[Logan9773]

Per the title. Also, when the shkval locks something, it supposedly uses optical recognition of the target. Hence, why you can't lock up a rock? So, is there anywhere that the computer will tell me what it has locked up? And if it can identify what it has locked up, is it able to determine the weakest point of the target for missle and cannon fire guidance?

 

I want to know this, because I really have a hard time at extreme range ( which you need to be at most times ) in determining what my target is. Most times, it just looks like a tank ( could be M1, could be Linebacker or 2S6 ). The computer obviously recognizes it, but its not telling me what it is. I need to know if its something I shouldn't worry too much about, or is it AAA which is what I want to kill from the farthest distance possible.

[Kurtz]

Either study vehicle types in manual, or tell wingman to engage, and see id he rejects target. Other than than try a label mod like -

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/2656740/Searchpage/2/Main/279129/Words/labels/Search/true/Re_Less_gamey_labels.html#Post2656740

[Huckle]

Are you also zooming in both on Shkval screen (with Num *), and have 23x zoom on Shkval itself?

I use icons (yes, it's cheating, in the same way that not killing yourself after a shootdown is cheating) and you can make them pretty minimal- ie light brown dot that comes up once within 5km of bad people.

[JG14_Smil]

'study' sim = start studying :)

[Boberro]

Zoom used in Shkval is one of the most powerfull zooms in this device class (IIRC).

 

How to recognize target? Read brief, watch ABRIS. In briefing there are sometimes recognized units types or what are supposed to be there. Also I don't think it is so difficult to recognize target at 23x zoom, you fire from maximum range 8 km so you have clearly view on target. Learn vehicles or better all objects look, shape. Then you'll notice differences and all will be much easier :)

 

Just study game more and more ^^

[slug88]

There is no computer that identifies targets on the Ka-50. The Shkval doesn't have any sort of image recognition functionality whatsoever. Which is why you can lock up objects besides combat vehicles (buildings, power lines, etc).

[bigsarge]

if they are facing toward you and firing they are considered hostile:music_whistling:

[coolts]

Check their profiles against background you should eawsily be able to distinguish between tanks, artilliery, BMP, Ural,etc.

[-fox-]

The labels can be switched on in DCS as additional help, a real BS-pilot doesn't have this option because there's no system that could regognize targets.

 

Your flight members (such as the wingman) can detect targets depending on their skill level. If they have "excellent" skills, they can detect targets over a distance of 8km, with "high" skills that's reduced to 6km and with "average" skills it's only 4km.

 

To assign the "Recon"-oder you have to use the radio commands menu. If they detect something, they'll pass it to you through the data link.

 

(At least that's what's written in the handbook ;) )

[Logan9773]

There is no computer that identifies targets on the Ka-50. The Shkval doesn't have any sort of image recognition functionality whatsoever. Which is why you can lock up objects besides combat vehicles (buildings, power lines, etc).

 

Ok, thats what I wanted to know. So there is no target recognition, just matching optical data, without any kind of database. But why can't I lock up the ground in front of a tank then? It only goes to TA when I am on part of a tank or such. Seems to be not so realistic. I'll try to dig through the book and videos a little more to find some answer to this.

[ARM505]

The optical tracking system (IRL) works on tracking a shape that is distinct from the background. Hence, tracking just part of a uniform texture won't provide enough for the system to track that particular section of it. In the sim however, the computer can only track specific entities that are preselected as 'trackable'. The greatest disadvantage of this method can be seen when trying to track a destroyed wreck - IRL, the system would track it, whereas in the sim, a wreck cannot be locked up.

 

And so, the way to ID a target in BS is to lock it up, switch to max zoom, and say to yourself 'What the hell is that?!?'

Edited June 6, 2009 by ARM505

[Boberro]

It is known Shkval locks contrast things, so it should lock also contrast ground places (high contrast, there are terrains these types...) but it doesn't lock. Also it doesn't lock dead things but it was mentioned it is simplication, so I could agree with Logan9777 the Shkval in game is not represented in all aspects.

[Kuro6]

It is known Shkval locks contrast things, so it should lock also contrast ground places (high contrast, there are terrains these types...) but it doesn't lock. Also it doesn't lock dead things but it was mentioned it is simplication, so I could agree with Logan9777 the Shkval in game is not represented in all aspects.

 

Yeah, DCS really messed up on this. It takes so much realism out of the sim. Its just like padlocking targets back in the old days of Gunship 2000. Surely, we are able to do better than this in 2009. Very unrealistic.

 

There are two things in this game that really irk me.

 

1. The unrealistic targeting and tracking on the Shkval ( padlocking ).

 

2. The really stupid AI who couldn't hit the side of a barn even at excellent level.

 

And I'm finding more as I go along. This sim still needs a lot of work.

[EvilBivol-1]

This sim still needs a lot of work.

Don't we all...

[Kuro6]

I'm sad to see you give such an reply. When I see replies like that, coming from the developers, I get the feeling that nothing is going to be done, and you are already moving on to some other project.

[EvilBivol-1]

Sorry, but I'm eaqually sad to see feedback like...

2. The really stupid AI who couldn't hit the side of a barn even at excellent level

...which is not only inaccurate, but not particularly helpful for any improvement you are supposedly trying to encourage.

[HitchHikingFlatlander]

I feel pretty stupid because of all the friendly ground units I've lost to AI fire not to mention all the times I've been shot down by them if they can't hit the side of a barn on excellent level (BTW Evil how do you set that) how can they manage to hit me? Kuro are you just here to start stuff? Whether you are or are not it would be a good idea to know what you're talking about first. The comment that this sim still needs a lot of work as well as many of your comments are very un-informed.

[GGTharos]

I'm sad and discouraged by yours. Let's address point 1.

 

#1. Seen any other sims which actually implement image processing in order to accomplish target tracking? Do you think it's an easy feat? How much are you willing to pay for the development of that one, single feature? How much CPU/GPU power are you willing to buy to have it work smoothly? Will you complain if AI don't use it? Will you live with it if the AI does use it and sucks at it horribly?

 

#2. Plenty of people complain about getting their butts kicked by tanks while they're in their choppers. Plenty of enemy choppers hit things, too. Your wingmen are also capable, if you give a bit of consideration into corralling them.

 

I'm sure you can 'find more'. It's not hard, you can 'find more' in any simulator you play ;)

 

I'm sad to see you give such an reply. When I see replies like that, coming from the developers, I get the feeling that nothing is going to be done, and you are already moving on to some other project.

[Logan9773]

I'm sad and discouraged by yours. Let's address point 1.

#1. Seen any other sims which actually implement image processing in order to accomplish target tracking?

 

And there in lies the problem. Image processing is not being simulated in this sim. It is obviously just simple padlocking, ala Gunship 2000. Like the "moving target" button on the WCS is really just eyecandy. It doesn't seem to affect tracking at all ( because its simple padlocking ). I was rather depressed to figure that out. Kind of ruined the sim for me.

 

I hope that DCS can actually come up with a realistic Shkval. Right now, its kind of arcade. Why even have a center post sight on the gate if its just going to padlock the target exactly anyway? Not real. The gate has a center post because thats where the laser would aim if you had real image processing. If I want padlocking, I'll just go back to Crysis which has better AI and graphics anyway.

 

Some things in this sim are great. I think a lot of effort was put into it. But others seem to have come up against a deadline and simple tricks were used to make it "good enough" and "get it out". I hope that in future patches, we will see these things fixed, especially "image processing" on the Shkval, and better AI that can actually hit a close up heli with gunfire. The missles are average in hitting but the AI aimed fire absolutely sucks.

[slug88]

Like the "moving target" button on the WCS is really just eyecandy. It doesn't seem to affect tracking at all ( because its simple padlocking ). I was rather depressed to figure that out. Kind of ruined the sim for me.

 

FYI, in real life, and in the sim, that button doesn't affect target tracking. Instead, as per the manual, it tells the computer to calculate a leading aim point:

 

"“НПЦ” (Moving ground target mode) button. If the Shkval is tracking a moving target and you press this button prior to launching a Vikhr ATGM, the weapon control system will adjust the Vikhr launch parameters to account for a moving target and thereby increase accuracy. The targeting system will also calculate lead for gun and rockets employment."

 

Anyway, have fun with Crysis.

[slug88]

Right now, its kind of arcade. Why even have a center post sight on the gate if its just going to padlock the target exactly anyway?

 

This part isn't true either. The system doesn't automatically lock to the center of the target, it tries to hold whichever point the sight is centered at.

[EvilBivol-1]

Like the "moving target" button on the WCS is really just eyecandy. It doesn't seem to affect tracking at all ( because its simple padlocking ).

Wrong. Setting Moving Target mode on affects the trajectory leading calculations.

...and better AI that can actually hit a close up heli with gunfire...

Do you have a track? In the mission below, I don't see a problem:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=696180&postcount=15

[Logan9773]

This part isn't true either. The system doesn't automatically lock to the center of the target, it tries to hold whichever point the sight is centered at.

 

Well, you have a good point there. So maybe it is simulated " a little ". Still, its no where near reality. I just hope in the future they can do much better with it.

 

@Evil. No, I don't have a track of it, because I have not yet figured how to save the track to a file. What I'm talking about is when you are standing near still ( usually happens when I near stall out the heli trying to turn too hard with too little energy ) and I see this stream of bullets going past me. I'm thinking, OK, Im dead, sitting duck. Yet the idiot gunner never seems to realize that if he just turned his gun about 10 degree's, he would blow me out of the sky. My chopper turns slowly over, in a near stall, and finally goes nose ground so I can get some air under me. This is happening in the mission Battle. Against human controlled vehicles, I would have been absolutely dead. Sometimes, I see 3 or 4 paths of bullets going around me. Surely, AI is better shots than that. I've seen video of a Tunguska tearing a jet out of the sky at about 1000 feet. It was awesome. In Crysis, if I go against a Shilka, I get shredded almost instantly. Thats real. You can imagine what 4 fast firing 23mm cannons can do to a heli at semi close range. Damage in this sim seems a little nerfed in the players favor.

[joey45]

Evil. No, I don't have a track of it, because I have not yet figured how to save the track to a file

 

at the de-breifing screen there is a button to save your last mission...

 

just post the trk file as it is in the thread

[EtherealN]

In Crysis, if I go against a Shilka, I get shredded almost instantly. Thats real.

 

Sorry, but... You're using Crysis as a realism benchmark? What? Do you even realize how insane that is?

 

Shilkas are basically radar-guided ZSU-23-4 emplacements on tracks. That "23" stands for "23 mm". Quite a few parts of attack helicopters are armored to withstand that. So being shredded "instantly" is quite simply bullshit.

 

If the rounds hit the right place you'll get fun stuff like hydraulic failures or a pilot whose brain is distributed throughout the caucasus or engines flaring out or going on fire, yes. If they hit the wrong place nothing much will happen, except that you'll hear loud clanking noices and start praying to whichever deity, ancestor or favourite japanese bling-pop star you prefer that everything is allright back there. Which it might well be.

 

Also:

 

usually happens when I near stall out the heli trying to turn too hard with too little energy

 

Stall the helicopter? I'm not entirely certain what exactly you are describing here, but there's quite a few possible explanations hidden here: bullets missing you after you've made a seriously hard turn is not strange. It takes a while for bullets to travel a km.

 

For the Tunguska example, it should also be noted that that is a 30mm system with missiles as well. Totally different kind of business - we're now talking the same calibre gun as the cannon the Ka-50 is carrying, and that thing hurts. The 23mm of the ZSU-23's aren't a laughing matter, but they're light enough that you shouldn't be surprised at taking a couple rounds somewhere and not really noticing it.

 

30mm cannon shells, though... That's just a whole other kind of business.

Edited June 7, 2009 by EtherealN