DAS IRST Functionality.

[McGherkin]

One of DAS's lesser known features is that it's capable of 360 degree IRST of hostile aircraft, with weapons cueing. See reference HERE

That is one of the most recent mentions I can find about this capability of DAS. It's almost never talked about these days. I suspect because it's quite effective.

From what I've been able to glean from the internet, DAS's target hunting functionality goes something like this.

1. DAS sensors around the aircraft track IR sources relatively roughly, closely enough to slew the EOTS onto them but not closely enough for tracking/cueing.
2. The EOTS systematically slews between all the IR sources the DAS sensors pick up. It uses its high zoom and laser rangefinder to both detect the range of the target, and also attempt to guess its aspect and type (and therefore hostility) using AI and the onboard target database.
3. EOTS categorises the threats based on the threat posed to the aircraft, and prioritizes the highest threat ones.
4. High priority threats are scanned by the EOTS more often than lower priority ones, providing more accurate tracks (and by knowing where you are, and the bearing, range of the target aircraft, and the change between multiple scans, you can calculate target speed, heading and position)
5. This information is passed to weapons in much the same way as TWS, and updated via datalink as the missile is in flight. Go here, fire up your seeker head, kill the thing.
6. This operates even if the radar is switched off, helping the F-35 maintain stealth, but the EOTS can classify radar tracks too.

So, will the DCS F-35 be able to switch the radar off and go hunting MIGs? Because I think with this capability, it will be rather ridiculous.

Edited January 16 by McGherkin

[Hulkbust44]

17 minutes ago, McGherkin said:

So, will the DCS F-35 be able to switch the radar off and go hunting MIGs?

Of course, but you don't need to turn off the radar with an AESA, the vast majority of RWRs won't see it.

[cailean_556]

19 minutes ago, McGherkin said:

One of DAS's lesser known features is that it's capable of 360 degree IRST of hostile aircraft, with weapons cueing. See reference [url=https://youtu.be/e1NrFZddihQ?t=128][u]HERE[/u][/url].

That is one of the most recent mentions I can find about this capability of DAS. It's almost never talked about these days. I suspect because it's quite effective.

From what I've been able to glean from the internet, DAS's target hunting functionality goes something like this.

1. DAS sensors around the aircraft track IR sources relatively roughly, closely enough to slew the EOTS onto them but not closely enough for tracking/cueing.
2. The EOTS systematically slews between all the IR sources the DAS sensors pick up. It uses its high zoom and laser rangefinder to both detect the range of the target, and also attempt to guess its aspect and type (and therefore hostility) using AI and the onboard target database.
3. EOTS categorises the threats based on the threat posed to the aircraft, and prioritizes the highest threat ones.
4. High priority threats are scanned by the EOTS more often than lower priority ones, providing more accurate tracks (and by knowing where you are, and the bearing, range of the target aircraft, and the change between multiple scans, you can calculate target speed, heading and position)
5. This information is passed to weapons in much the same way as TWS, and updated via datalink as the missile is in flight. Go here, fire up your seeker head, kill the thing.
6. This operates even if the radar is switched off, helping the F-35 maintain stealth, but the EOTS can classify radar tracks too.

So, will the DCS F-35 be able to switch the radar off and go hunting MIGs? Because I think with this capability, it will be rather ridiculous.

If what you've just cited/written is even remotely true then yeah, I'd say the F-35 could go cold and hunt MiGs using passive sensors.

Don't forget the F-35 uses data fusion, so if its datalinked I'm pretty sure (no sources, I just recall something about it - could be wrong) it doesn't even need to turn its own radar on to launch an AMRAAM.

This is not unlike the MiG-29 and Su-27/33s ability to use their IRST to locate an engage targets without turning on their radar - only much, much more capable. It might be ridiculous if you're pitting an F-35 against Cold War-era aircraft, but that's pretty much the USAF vs most other non-modernised airforces in reality.

[Hobel]

vor 28 Minuten schrieb cailean_556:

Don't forget the F-35 uses data fusion, so if its datalinked I'm pretty sure (no sources, I just recall something about it - could be wrong) it doesn't even need to turn its own radar on to launch an AMRAAM.

yes you could fire on Datalink contacts like this, but especially with the Aim120D

Aim120C must remain in the host radar FOV for the M-Link

Edited January 16 by Hobel

[McGherkin]

58 minutes ago, Hulkbust44 said:

Of course, but you don't need to turn off the radar with an AESA, the vast majority of RWRs won't see it.

Of course, the F-35’s radar is LPI, but like most things, it’s not an ‘on or off’ whether you’ll detect it, it’s how close you can get before it’s detected. I’d argue it’s a capability the F-35 has over the F-22, which needs to emit *something* to be able to hunt. F-35 can go completely passive.

53 minutes ago, cailean_556 said:

If what you've just cited/written is even remotely true then yeah, I'd say the F-35 could go cold and hunt MiGs using passive sensors.

Don't forget the F-35 uses data fusion, so if its datalinked I'm pretty sure (no sources, I just recall something about it - could be wrong) it doesn't even need to turn its own radar on to launch an AMRAAM.

This is not unlike the MiG-29 and Su-27/33s ability to use their IRST to locate an engage targets without turning on their radar - only much, much more capable. It might be ridiculous if you're pitting an F-35 against Cold War-era aircraft, but that's pretty much the USAF vs most other non-modernised airforces in reality.

Yes, datalinked AMRAAM D models wouldn’t need the radar although to be fair even a C variant would still do pretty well against a target that doesn’t know you’re there yet, since the target won’t be manoeuvring making its position when the missile goes pitbull pretty easy to determine, and the missile has a good chance of being successful even if it doesn’t receive an updated position after it leaves the rail.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

2 hours ago, McGherkin said:

So, will the DCS F-35 be able to switch the radar off and go hunting MIGs? Because I think with this capability, it will be rather ridiculous.

Kind of what you want when war fighting.

[Harlikwin]

2 hours ago, McGherkin said:

One of DAS's lesser known features is that it's capable of 360 degree IRST of hostile aircraft, with weapons cueing. See reference HERE

That is one of the most recent mentions I can find about this capability of DAS. It's almost never talked about these days. I suspect because it's quite effective.

From what I've been able to glean from the internet, DAS's target hunting functionality goes something like this.

1. DAS sensors around the aircraft track IR sources relatively roughly, closely enough to slew the EOTS onto them but not closely enough for tracking/cueing.
2. The EOTS systematically slews between all the IR sources the DAS sensors pick up. It uses its high zoom and laser rangefinder to both detect the range of the target, and also attempt to guess its aspect and type (and therefore hostility) using AI and the onboard target database.
3. EOTS categorises the threats based on the threat posed to the aircraft, and prioritizes the highest threat ones.
4. High priority threats are scanned by the EOTS more often than lower priority ones, providing more accurate tracks (and by knowing where you are, and the bearing, range of the target aircraft, and the change between multiple scans, you can calculate target speed, heading and position)
5. This information is passed to weapons in much the same way as TWS, and updated via datalink as the missile is in flight. Go here, fire up your seeker head, kill the thing.
6. This operates even if the radar is switched off, helping the F-35 maintain stealth, but the EOTS can classify radar tracks too.

So, will the DCS F-35 be able to switch the radar off and go hunting MIGs? Because I think with this capability, it will be rather ridiculous.

Yup DAS does all that. I mean the F35 is gonna be ludicriously OP in DCS as in real life. I don't really see it having any real use in MP PVP servers for this reason. But I'm sure it will be popular in PVE.

[Hobel]

vor 12 Minuten schrieb Harlikwin:

Yup DAS does all that. I mean the F35 is gonna be ludicriously OP in DCS as in real life. I don't really see it having any real use in MP PVP servers for this reason. But I'm sure it will be popular in PVE.

Eurofighter vs F35?

[SEEADLER 111]

3 minutes ago, Hobel said:

Eurofighter vs F35?

Bad joke german tranche 1 without IRST. No chance.

Edited January 17 by SEEADLER 111

[Hobel]

 

vor 17 Minuten schrieb SEEADLER 111:

Bad joke german tranche 1 without IRST. No chance.

hm Eurofighter is faster and has the Meteor?

[SEEADLER 111]

31 minutes ago, Hobel said:

 

hm Eurofighter is faster and has the Meteor?

And how do you shoot something you can't see? Eurofighter hat chance with PIRATE or tranche 4 with AESA radar. Not our HB Eurofighter. 

Edited January 17 by SEEADLER 111

[F-2]

4 minutes ago, SEEADLER 111 said:

And how do you shoot something you can't see?

After all this the R-27ET becomes the MVP.

[Hobel]

Gerade eben schrieb SEEADLER 111:

And how do you shoot something you can't see?

That is the question... how big will the limitation be?

should it be possible with the Eurofighter radar or also with the F15C/E radar to Lock the F-35 to max 40-50nm it could be challenging, are the values plausible, no idea? maybe you have a better estimate. nevertheless it is not invisible it just reduces the RCS enormously.

or also how far can an Awacs see it how far would be plausible?

[Harlikwin]

1 hour ago, Hobel said:

Eurofighter vs F35?

LOL, thats not even a fight. Even if it had Pirate which HB said it wont. 

[F-2]

From what I understand at least with the Raptor mechanical scan radars struggled even in BFM ranges. Not so sure about the F-35 but I would expect it to be different.

 

one thing though supposedly the afterburner is an IR Chrismas tree. Newer pilots will make that mistake.

[Harlikwin]

Just now, F-2 said:

From what I understand at least with the Raptor mechanical scan radars struggled even in BFM ranges. Not so sure about the F-35 but I would expect it to be different.

 

one thing though supposedly the afterburner is an IR Chrismas tree. Newer pilots will make that mistake.

Thats the thing about Afterburners... You can't actually see plume in IR at longer range. Its rapidly absorbed. 

Edited January 17 by Harlikwin

[F-2]

1 minute ago, Harlikwin said:

Thats the thing about Afterburners... You can't actually see plume in IR at longer range. Its rapidly absorbed. 

No you can’t,  but if your in a close in situation it’s your best bet because radar will be unreliable 

[Harlikwin]

1 minute ago, F-2 said:

No you can’t,  but if your in a close in situation it’s your best bet because radar will be unreliable 

I mean you aren't gonna make it to the merge with an F35... He will see you on Radar, DAS or EOTS, LONG before you know he's there, and he will kill you.

 

Edited January 17 by Harlikwin

[F-2]

1 minute ago, Harlikwin said:

I mean you aren't gonna make it to the merge with an F35... He will see you on Radar, DAS or EOTS, LONG before you know he's there, and he will kill you.

 

Oh yea you’re screwed lol. This is what you do in your least screwed senario.

 

[Hobel]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb Harlikwin:

LOL, thats . Even if it had Pirate which HB said it wont. 

okay yes and the reason exactly is? i don't want to say it's wrong but you could go into a bit more detail.  not even a fight because?

[Krippz]

10 minutes ago, Hobel said:

okay yes and the reason exactly is? i don't want to say it's wrong but you could go into a bit more detail.  not even a fight because?

It's not a fight because you won't be able to detect it until sub 20 miles on the radar. By that point you're dead already. 

[SEEADLER 111]

25 minutes ago, Harlikwin said:

LOL, thats not even a fight. Even if it had Pirate which HB said it wont. 

As you say, there won't be any pirates, but with pirates on a clear day, a Eurofighter can detect a target at more than 50 miles. Subsonics after the 2013 update around 90nm.if there would be a chance of success.

[FlankerFan35]

7 hours ago, Hobel said:

okay yes and the reason exactly is? i don't want to say it's wrong but you could go into a bit more detail.  not even a fight because?

IDK if you're joking but nothing in DCS including ships, AWACS, SAMs or planes will be able to detect the F-35 likely until its already sent a weapon its way and maybe not even then if its not very close, they'll just get a warning and die. This also means no datalink contacts and in a crowded space like a popular DCS server F-35s will be invincible hiding between or around the other aircraft and systems (as they do irl as well) any pilot Eurofighter or otherwise will be handling lmao. So essentially, you will be getting attacked from clear sky and likely far inside the F-35s weapons range your only warning being that a 120 is a few seconds from popping your unprepared butt.  Not to mention the F-35 in question will have near perfect SA in DCS at all times with DAS, MADL etc and no current jammers in DCS can make the APG-81 even flinch.

Watch any 5th gen pilot interview talking about doing BVR vs 4th gens (ones with AESA/IRST even) and you'll hear the phrase "Like clubbing baby seals" on repeat.

Edited January 17 by FlankerFan35

[Hobel]

vor 22 Minuten schrieb FlankerFan35:

IDK if you're joking but nothing in DCS including ships, AWACS, SAMs or planes will be able to detect the F-35 likely until its already sent a weapon its way and maybe not even then if its not very close, they'll just get a warning and die. This also means no datalink contacts and in a crowded space like a popular DCS server F-35s will be invincible hiding between or around the other aircraft and systems (as they do irl as well) any pilot Eurofighter or otherwise will be handling lmao. So essentially, you will be getting attacked from clear sky and likely far inside the F-35s weapons range your only warning being that a 120 is a few seconds from popping your unprepared butt.

Watch any 5th gen pilot interview talking about doing BVR vs 4th gens (ones with AESA/IRST even) and you'll hear the phrase "Like clubbing baby seals" on repeat.

yes i looked at the numbers again and it seems to be more dramatic than i thought...
the F117 can only be seen in dcs with the F18 from ~20nm and the F35 will probably have even better stealth capabilities...
yes it will not be a fight.

the mission creator could put the pylons on it that you can't remove as a player, that could make up for it. lol

Edited January 17 by Hobel

[Harlikwin]

40 minutes ago, Hobel said:

okay yes and the reason exactly is? i don't want to say it's wrong but you could go into a bit more detail.  not even a fight because?

What Krippz said. IR is maybe your one hope of seeing it. And IR doesn't work thru clouds, plus the F35 is also IR stealthy. So... Basically you are boned. 

22 minutes ago, FlankerFan35 said:

IDK if you're joking but nothing in DCS including ships, AWACS, SAMs or planes will be able to detect the F-35 likely until its already sent a weapon its way and maybe not even then if its not very close, they'll just get a warning and die. This also means no datalink contacts and in a crowded space like a popular DCS server F-35s will be invincible hiding between or around the other aircraft and systems (as they do irl as well) any pilot Eurofighter or otherwise will be handling lmao. So essentially, you will be getting attacked from clear sky and likely far inside the F-35s weapons range your only warning being that a 120 is a few seconds from popping your unprepared butt.  Not to mention the F-35 in question will have near perfect SA in DCS at all times with DAS etc and no current jammers in DCS can make the APG-81 even flinch

Watch any 5th gen pilot interview talking about doing BVR vs 4th gens (ones with AESA/IRST even) and you'll hear the phrase "Like clubbing baby seals" on repeat.

Exactly this.