released to early access Cold War Germany discussion

[Swiso]

If the map is called "German Cold War", as Wags named it, then i would be pretty sure that both Bitburg and Spangs will be there...

Spangs in regard to the F4 Phantom

Bitburg for the F15...the C version is in development.

It will make no sense to release a Cold War map of Germany without having those two bases IMHO.

[Rick Mave]

15 hours ago, flanker1 said:

You are right, but with 5-10% population. . . in Germany we need up to 40-50%. . .  I think / hope that we will have more or less entire germany simulated, at least mostly eastern gemany and the most strategic part of western germany. Don´t forget, with all air and helikopter bases simulated - both german armies and the ones of the allies, we will reach a total lnumber of minimum 100. . . maybe more.  Dont forget the other military installation and strategic places. This was the highest armed and most dangerous place of the world for 40 years. . .     

Also a fair argument. I think this will be the most interesting map we get so far though.

Definitely the era of military aviation I am most interested in, so this truly feels like a gift made for me specifically.

[flanker1]

vor 30 Minuten schrieb Rick Mave:

Also a fair argument. I think this will be the most interesting map we get so far though.

Definitely the era of military aviation I am most interested in, so this truly feels like a gift made for me specifically.

This was "my time when I was schoolboy, I was interested in but definitely too young the realize the impact and visiting/spotting all the soviet metal over my head. I my near area where Mig-21. 23, 25, 27 29 based. The noise was unacceptabe some days, the pollution even on weekends and nightime was a crazy thing. That was amazing and scaring the same time. I watched a crash of a Mig-23UB (causing 2 fatal injuries) while taking off when I visited the prohibited area around the airfield in my home town after school looking the jets landing and take off with full burner. Earth was shaking, the noise is unforgetable. . .  kids were "allowed" by the soviet guards and security officers. Crazy times, not sooo long ago. But yes, good old times. . . in some sense. It is also a dream that comes to be true with this upcoming map. I am a DCS fanboy since Flanker series Day 1. Always tried to modify all the stuff to simulate soviet air power in my mission building and modding the game regarding this. Thanks out to Urbi and Grandsurf Steffen May, long times  ago. . . he always inspired me and let me use his fantastic mods and work. Let´s hope and see what we will get per default from ED with the Germany Cold War map , hopefully no mods are needed in the future. . . Hoping for a Mig-23 or/and 27 at least. . .

[Rick Mave]

I'm hoping we get some more cold war BW ground assets like an Iltis or a MAN Kati.

Run off the mill T72A would be nice as well.

[Cunctator]

3 hours ago, motoadve said:

How hard would it be to make a WWII version, its needed, lot less houses, lots of destroyed cities. np modern buildings

Of the entire map? A lot of work. Germany changed tremendously between 1945 and 85. To a greater or lesser degree the cities destroyed by the bombing campaign were mostly rebuilt with a new, car friendly, layout and buildings in very different styles. The infrastructure changed, countless new roads were constructed, bypassing the old town centers. In more rural areas many of the old farms disappeared and countless single family homes were built. As a consequence the built up area of smaller towns greatly expanded, with many new neighborhoods and commercial areas.
Also the general look from the air did change, with an increasing average size of fields.

[Bremspropeller]

9 hours ago, Rongor said:

No NATO aviation here, keep in mind this was based on an agreement between the 4 victors of WW2, not between NATO and the Warsaw Pact. While any failed deconfliction would likely have ended with a Pact/NATO standoff, it was a purely quadripartite issue.

Maybe to clarify for some: No NATO assets based there. There'd still be traffic through the corridors - including large transports:

https://www.airliners.net/photo/USA-Air-Force/Lockheed-C-5A-Galaxy-L-500/1328423/L

https://www.airliners.net/photo/USA-Air-Force/Lockheed-C-5A-Galaxy-L-500/1326439/L

Muste have been quite the music for those people living here:

https://www.airliners.net/photo/-/-/677189/L

https://www.airliners.net/photo/-/-/477033/L

Room with a view:

 

BTW: The Pan Am 747 in the trailer wasn't quite as misplaced as some might think:

https://www.airliners.net/photo/Pan-American-World-Airways-Pan-Am/Boeing-747-121/1334169/L

https://www.airliners.net/photo/Pan-American-World-Airways-Pan-Am/Boeing-747-121/1230780/L

This was most probably a special charter.

Pan Am's 747s, however, also were taking part in the CRAF programme. CRAF was the Civil Reserve Air Fleet, which consisted of commercial airliners being used for military transportation in case of conflict - Pan Am had many of their 747s modified with a strengthened cabin floor and an additional cargo door on the rear main deck, similar to the door on the 747F:

https://www.panam.org/global-era/airlift-paa-the-craf

N741PA wasn't a CRAF modified airframe, though.

Spoiler

from: https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1379345#p19981125

 

Below are the CRAF converted 747s listed, plus the years they were converted :

1985
N653PA, 747-121, (cn 20348/106)
N655PA, 747-121, (cn 20350/117)

1986
N734PA, 747-121, (cn 19641/7)
N743PA, 747-121, (cn 19650/24)
N902PA, 747-132, (cn 19896/72)
N725PA, 747-132, (cn 19898/94)
N728PA, 747-212B, (cn 20712/218)

1987
N739PA, 747-121, (cn 19646/15), Lockerbie
N729PA, 747-212B, (cn 20713/219)
N730PA, 747-212B, (cn 20888/240)

1988
N747PA, 747-121, (cn 19639/2)
N4703U, 747-122, (cn 19753/52)
N4704U, 747-122, (cn 19754/60)
N4712U, 747-122, (cn 19757/67)

1989
N4710U, 747-122, (cn 19755/61)
N4711U, 747-122, (cn 19756/66)
N9670, 747-123, (cn 20109/90)
N9674, 747-123, (cn 20326/133)

1990
N726PA, 747-212B, (cn 21048/253)

 

Edited January 22 by Bremspropeller

[Volator]

38 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

 

Wow, that was impressive! I guess the cockpit crew didn't aim for the 1000ft marker but for the piano bars for a reason...

[Bremspropeller]

27L was only about 1800m long with little to no overrun. Going long could have you plow through trees, across railway tracks and into Tempelhof S-Bahn Station.

 

Edited January 22 by Bremspropeller

[flanker1]

Am 19.1.2025 um 17:28 schrieb flanker1:

No, there were only soviet fighters over western Berlin / and a spetacular crash into the Stössensee happened 1966 with a Yak-28P from Finow, when the pilot tried to avoid a crash into public buildings and surely a lot of victims on the ground.     

Regarding the crash in 1966 - some background info, in German. 

https://www.deutschlandfunkkultur.de/flugzeugabsturz-ueber-west-berlin-die-vergessenen-helden-100.html

 

[Bremspropeller]

4 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

BTW: The Pan Am 747 in the trailer wasn't quite as misplaced as some might think:

https://www.airliners.net/photo/Pan-American-World-Airways-Pan-Am/Boeing-747-121/1334169/L

https://www.airliners.net/photo/Pan-American-World-Airways-Pan-Am/Boeing-747-121/1230780/L

This was most probably a special charter.

Pan Am's 747s, however, also were taking part in the CRAF programme. CRAF was the Civil Reserve Air Fleet, which consisted of commercial airliners being used for military transportation in case of conflict - Pan Am had many of their 747s modified with a strengthened cabin floor and an additional cargo door on the rear main deck, similar to the door on the 747F:

https://www.panam.org/global-era/airlift-paa-the-craf

N741PA wasn't a CRAF modified airframe, though.

  Reveal hidden contents

from: https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1379345#p19981125

 

Below are the CRAF converted 747s listed, plus the years they were converted :

1985
N653PA, 747-121, (cn 20348/106)
N655PA, 747-121, (cn 20350/117)

1986
N734PA, 747-121, (cn 19641/7)
N743PA, 747-121, (cn 19650/24)
N902PA, 747-132, (cn 19896/72)
N725PA, 747-132, (cn 19898/94)
N728PA, 747-212B, (cn 20712/218)

1987
N739PA, 747-121, (cn 19646/15), Lockerbie
N729PA, 747-212B, (cn 20713/219)
N730PA, 747-212B, (cn 20888/240)

1988
N747PA, 747-121, (cn 19639/2)
N4703U, 747-122, (cn 19753/52)
N4704U, 747-122, (cn 19754/60)
N4712U, 747-122, (cn 19757/67)

1989
N4710U, 747-122, (cn 19755/61)
N4711U, 747-122, (cn 19756/66)
N9670, 747-123, (cn 20109/90)
N9674, 747-123, (cn 20326/133)

1990
N726PA, 747-212B, (cn 21048/253)

 

Okay, this explains the 747 at THF on that day (it's in frame at 10:52):

 

Mr. Gorbachev, tare down this wall!

Edited January 23 by Bremspropeller

[twistking]

15 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

Maybe to clarify for some: No NATO assets based there. There'd still be traffic through the corridors - including large transports:

https://www.airliners.net/photo/USA-Air-Force/Lockheed-C-5A-Galaxy-L-500/1328423/L

https://www.airliners.net/photo/USA-Air-Force/Lockheed-C-5A-Galaxy-L-500/1326439/L

Muste have been quite the music for those people living here:

https://www.airliners.net/photo/-/-/677189/L

https://www.airliners.net/photo/-/-/477033/L

[...]

It's unreal seeing these large aircraft at Tempelhof. I often use the old runways for bicycle sprints. They are rather short. And -as you already mentioned- no run-off area.

Edited January 23 by twistking

[Rongor]

Hey Ugra,

in case you read this, please also include the radio navigation installations for 1980s Berlin:

 

NDB:

Lubars	DLS	413.5 kHz	N52.613899, E013.363600
Tegel West	RW	392.0 kHz	N52.545067, E013.151062
Tegel East	GL	321.5 kHz	N52.572316, E013.426114  *
Helmholtz	DBR	347.0 kHz	N52.463688, E013.288902
Planter	DIP	327.0 kHz
Mahlow	MW	309.0 kHz	N52.344471, E013.387504
Schonefeld	SL	299.0 kHz	N52.392601, E013.570000

Gatow

GW

370.5 kHz

N52.469628, E013.138005

VOR:

Tegel	TGL	112.30 MHz	N52.561512, E013.287567
Havel	HVL	113.30 MHz	N52.461115, E013.142778
Tempelhof	TOF	114.10 MHz	N52.473120, E013.405401

 

TACAN:

 

Tegel		*	N52.461115, E013.142778	*
Tempelhof	TOF	*	N52.473120, E013.405401	*

 

*

- Tegel East NDB coordinates is wrong by showing the 1990s location. This NDB had been located just within West-Berlin close to the border in the extended TXL rwy 26 approach centerline until the cold war ended. I yet have to find its precise former location

- I do have published approximate coordinates for Planter NDB though I still have to investigate its exact location as I did for all the others (literally pinpointing locations), will update when I achieved satisfying precision.

- I am 99% TOF VOR had a co-located TACAN and 30% certain TGL VOR did as well. I'm still investigating for original maps featuring these 2 VORTACs.

 

 

last update 06.02.2025

Edited February 6 by Rongor

[Bremspropeller]

I hope ole Teufelsberg station is going to be a thing

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teufelsberg

 

I'm hoping for ED to open the Germany Map subsection soon, so maybe we can gather some info on special buildings for the larger cities.

[MAXsenna]

26 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

I hope ole Teufelsberg station is going to be a thing

Cool! Is "Teufels" plural or possessive? (Devils/Devil's). 

[Bremspropeller]

I'm assuming the devil to always be possessive

[MAXsenna]

I'm assuming the devil to always be possessive

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[kl_koral]

Teufelsberg is mainly man-made with over 26 million m³ of debris until the early 70's. Around one third of Berlin's war rubble. Its named after a lake nearby. But regarding the filling of it very suitable name.

I'm very much looking forward to this map and really hoping to see Ramstein.

[MAXsenna]

Teufelsberg is mainly man-made with over 26 million m³ of debris until the early 70's. Around one third of Berlin's war rubble. Its named after a lake nearby. But regarding the filling of it very suitable name.

I'm very much looking forward to this map and really hoping to see Ramstein.

Aha, name makes sense now.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[jumphigh]

On 1/23/2025 at 4:15 PM, MAXsenna said:

Is "Teufels" plural or possessive? (Devils/Devil's).

As a German I would say neither nor. It seems to be a "Fugen-s" (linking element s) to ease pronunciation.

[MAXsenna]

As a German I would say neither nor. It seems to be a "Fugen-s" (linking element s) to ease pronunciation.

Aha! Thanks!

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[AirWolf D]

Heya,

I think "Teufelsberg" is a proper name, otherwise it would be called the devil's mountain!

[Fitzcarraldo]

On 1/22/2025 at 8:26 PM, Bremspropeller said:

Maybe to clarify for some: No NATO assets based there. There'd still be traffic through the corridors - including large transports:

https://www.airliners.net/photo/USA-Air-Force/Lockheed-C-5A-Galaxy-L-500/1328423/L

https://www.airliners.net/photo/USA-Air-Force/Lockheed-C-5A-Galaxy-L-500/1326439/L

Muste have been quite the music for those people living here:

https://www.airliners.net/photo/-/-/677189/L

https://www.airliners.net/photo/-/-/477033/L

Room with a view:

 

BTW: The Pan Am 747 in the trailer wasn't quite as misplaced as some might think:

https://www.airliners.net/photo/Pan-American-World-Airways-Pan-Am/Boeing-747-121/1334169/L

https://www.airliners.net/photo/Pan-American-World-Airways-Pan-Am/Boeing-747-121/1230780/L

This was most probably a special charter.

Pan Am's 747s, however, also were taking part in the CRAF programme. CRAF was the Civil Reserve Air Fleet, which consisted of commercial airliners being used for military transportation in case of conflict - Pan Am had many of their 747s modified with a strengthened cabin floor and an additional cargo door on the rear main deck, similar to the door on the 747F:

https://www.panam.org/global-era/airlift-paa-the-craf

N741PA wasn't a CRAF modified airframe, though.

  Reveal hidden contents

from: https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1379345#p19981125

 

Below are the CRAF converted 747s listed, plus the years they were converted :

1985
N653PA, 747-121, (cn 20348/106)
N655PA, 747-121, (cn 20350/117)

1986
N734PA, 747-121, (cn 19641/7)
N743PA, 747-121, (cn 19650/24)
N902PA, 747-132, (cn 19896/72)
N725PA, 747-132, (cn 19898/94)
N728PA, 747-212B, (cn 20712/218)

1987
N739PA, 747-121, (cn 19646/15), Lockerbie
N729PA, 747-212B, (cn 20713/219)
N730PA, 747-212B, (cn 20888/240)

1988
N747PA, 747-121, (cn 19639/2)
N4703U, 747-122, (cn 19753/52)
N4704U, 747-122, (cn 19754/60)
N4712U, 747-122, (cn 19757/67)

1989
N4710U, 747-122, (cn 19755/61)
N4711U, 747-122, (cn 19756/66)
N9670, 747-123, (cn 20109/90)
N9674, 747-123, (cn 20326/133)

1990
N726PA, 747-212B, (cn 21048/253)

 

Would be cool, if we could get some AI assets of jetliners and cargo-planes that fit the era. The berlin theatre would be cool for some high tension (not yet hot) cold war scenarios...

[JUICE-AWG]

 

[bies]

On 1/22/2025 at 1:30 PM, Swiso said:

If the map is called "German Cold War", as Wags named it, then i would be pretty sure that both Bitburg and Spangs will be there...

Spangs in regard to the F4 Phantom

Bitburg for the F15...the C version is in development.

It will make no sense to release a Cold War map of Germany without having those two bases IMHO.

When it comes to Cold War and F-15C in developement, it's not 100% sure at the moment:

 

[portman]

Am 21.1.2025 um 22:33 schrieb flanker1:

I think / hope that we will have more or less entire germany simulated, at least mostly eastern gemany and the most strategic part of western germany.

I hope so, too. The majority of the fast jet airbases of the East German LSK/LV were situated along the Polish border (Peenemünde, Marxwalde (Neuhardenberg today), Cottbus / Drewitz, Preschen, Rothenburg, Bautzen), so that a "Cold War Germany" map would have to include almost all of East Germany. And of course, we would need new ground vehicles too, like the IFA W50 and L60, Robur LO, Trabant Kübel, Barkas.... just my 2 cents.