waiting for resolution ED/RAZBAM Situation Info & Discussion

[bfr]

11 minutes ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

It's one made out of (an understandable) ignorance of the gears that grind away in software development. Were it that simple, ED would've sought out to hire more developers capable of supporting these modules and brought them in house long ago. If they had the legal ability to do so? I'm not sure we'd be seeing outfits like Heatblur, Orbx, or even Razbam involved in the first place.

And before all of that you need someone to be willing to hand over the IP, be that under some kind of contractual obligation or by sale. Obviously neither of those things have happened, or at least not yet.  

And the contractual obligation part can be complex. I've been involved in a software project that was subject to an escrow agreement and the terms by which the other party got access to the source/IP was very specific i.e. if we as the vendor ceased trading during our contracted period and definitely not if we just fell out a bit.  So if we assume that either an escrow was never set up with RB or that one was but the circumstances mean the trigger criteria hasn't been met then the only way someone is going to get their hands on the source is to pay whatever RB agree to.

[Tank50us]

2 hours ago, Jayhawk1971 said:

Hypothetically, should Heatblur indeed be able to obtain the rights (code, docs and all) for the F-15E, they could very well hire (full time or project-based) the devs that made the Mudhen for RB, and just be responsible for overall project management. That wouldn't interfere with their schedule all that much. Those devs could finally get paid fully for their hard work. And who knows, maybe the gentleman who re-created the AN/APG-70 might be able to take a look at its cousin, the APG-71 (wink wink, nudge nudge)?  

Hypothetically. 

Alternatively, if RB just decides to call it quits, and gives up the Source Code, maybe the devs that actually worked on those projects could band together to from a new 3PS, and then deal with ED directly.

Funny thing about this whole mess... is that RB is more like a second publisher then an actual developer. So there'd be no real stopping such a team from forming out of the ashes. The only thing that stops them from fixing the modules... is the lack of source code needed.

3 minutes ago, BittuCNGT said:

here is my hypothetical suggestion

Let both the heads (only the heads or whole team excluding lawyers) of ED and RB meet at a coffee shop in the morning then let them both discuss the issue, come to a mutual agreement (good or bad not an issue) then discuss with their respective teams , meet again and share opinions and finalise what to do in words between the 2 and then bring the legal people into the matter to legalise it (staying together or breaking up as i think these are only the options they will be having).

just saying.

that's called a "Gentleman's Agreement", and unless you have a notarized document with a signature on it, it's about as good legally as toilet paper.

[bfr]

2 minutes ago, BittuCNGT said:

here is my hypothetical suggestion

Let both the heads (only the heads or whole team excluding lawyers) of ED and RB meet at a coffee shop in the morning then let them both discuss the issue, come to a mutual agreement (good or bad not an issue) then discuss with their respective teams , meet again and share opinions and finalise what to do in words between the 2 and then bring the legal people into the matter to legalise it (staying together or breaking up as i think these are only the options they will be having).

just saying.

If you believe what you read then there was briefly some agreement that then rapidly fell apart.

And you also have to remember that an awful lot of RB's team were contractors who are now off doing other things.

[BittuCNGT]

3 minutes ago, Tank50us said:

Alternatively, if RB just decides to call it quits, and gives up the Source Code, maybe the devs that actually worked on those projects could band together to from a new 3PS, and then deal with ED directly.

Funny thing about this whole mess... is that RB is more like a second publisher then an actual developer. So there'd be no real stopping such a team from forming out of the ashes. The only thing that stops them from fixing the modules... is the lack of source code needed.

that's called a "Gentleman's Agreement", and unless you have a notarized document with a signature on it, it's about as good legally as toilet paper.

that's where the lawyers come in to make it legal 

[MAXsenna]

I know that there wont be a reply, but trying is not bad right?

Sure, one should always get effort points!

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[MAXsenna]

8 minutes ago, Tank50us said:

Alternatively, if RB just decides to call it quits, and gives up the Source Code

Why on earth would they do that? You repeatedly writing that until you're blue in the face won't make that happen. And, you yourself keep commenting on Ron's "inflated ego". I think you have a better chance winning the lottery, then YOU can make it happen.  

Cheers!

[Tank50us]

2 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Why on earth would they do that? You repeatedly writing that until you're blue in the face won't make that happen. And, you yourself keep commenting on Ron's "inflated ego". I think you have a better chance winning the lottery, then YOU can make it happen.  

Cheers!

I'd gladly fund the creation of a new DCS Module if I won the lottery XD Heck, such a team might have the first versions of the module within a year.

That said, in my original statement, I did say IF. And it's also dependent on what happens with the legal teams.

[Aapje]

22 minutes ago, bfr said:

If you believe what you read then there was briefly some agreement that then rapidly fell apart.

Not sure that more than 6 months is briefly.

[Beirut]

I can't believe all this hasn't been made into a mission or campaign yet.

[AbuMuqawama]

2 hours ago, zerO_crash said:

I seriously hope that ED finally fixes its business model and, in particular, the contract scheme with 3rd parties, as this is in fact ridiculous (so far). I am not even remotely confident that Razbam's modules will last through 2.9.X, let alone into a propective 3.0 future (ED doesn't even make a promise past 2.9.X). Effectively, that means dead modules. If we consider how much time is invested into learning a module, getting stick time and onward, then it is time poorly invested if one is to figure "despite our best intentions, it is what it is"...

 

I really hope that third time's the charm for ED here, otherwise, it will become harder and harder for me to solidify expensive hardware investments (and continued sim support), if I'm to find out that future product lineup will shrink even more. This is not good at all!

That and they need to do something for the people that bought these modules and are going to be holding a load of oogatz come 3.0. Whether it be in-store credit or what, I don't know, but they gotta do something. If they don't they risk burning customer good-will and support.

[bfr]

54 minutes ago, Aapje said:

Not sure that more than 6 months is briefly.

It didn't hold up sufficiently long for anything remotely like normal business to resume.

[hitman]

2 hours ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

Yeah, that's a huge assumption and not one based on good evidence. 

The MiG-21 is still here and is older than all of them. It's one thing to expect updates and new things, but we're really just asking for them to be made available and usable. There was absolutely no hope we were ever getting the MiG-19S since RB flip-flopped on that actual promise for years. But, that doesn't mean I'm willing to give up the -19P just because it's old. Same with the Mirage 2000. Even the older versions of the A-10C and KA-50 are still here.

No one is wanting free updates to their capabilities and content, they just want them functional.

No, I get it. Bought them all on day 1, but to keep them current kind of makes you wonder if ED pays 3rd parties a percentage to keep them updated rather than a flat rate per module. Harrier should have been done years ago.

[hitman]

1 hour ago, MAXsenna said:

Why on earth would they do that? You repeatedly writing that until you're blue in the face won't make that happen. And, you yourself keep commenting on Ron's "inflated ego". I think you have a better chance winning the lottery, then YOU can make it happen.  

Cheers!

You know how I started fixing my mental health? I realized that if I had a problem with everybody, then Im the problem. Some people just never ask themselves that question, and most certainly Ron should be doing some genuine reflection of himself. Legitimately burned his own business to the ground to spite ED because he was caught with his hands in the cookie jar. If Ron doesnt want to reflect on that then good riddance.

[Aapje]

42 minutes ago, bfr said:

It didn't hold up sufficiently long for anything remotely like normal business to resume.

We have no idea what they did during that period.

[MAXsenna]

You know how I started fixing my mental health? I realized that if I had a problem with everybody, then Im the problem. Some people just never ask themselves that question, and most certainly Ron should be doing some genuine reflection of himself. Legitimately burned his own business to the ground to spite ED because he was caught with his hands in the cookie jar. If Ron doesnt want to reflect on that then good riddance.

I was not defending Ron. I just pointed out that is probably more of a chance winning the lottery than him giving up the Source Code.

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[hitman]

1 hour ago, MAXsenna said:

I was not defending Ron. I just pointed out that is probably more of a chance winning the lottery than him giving up the Source Code.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk
 

I actually think that would very likely happen. If Ron expects to get ANYTHING from their F-15E, they're going to have to give something up, even if it means sacrificing 3 modules to do so. Im willing to bet that the F-15E will likely see development afterwards, just not under Razbam. Id put money on that too. He can stick with the MSFS crowd. 

[Tamama]

hello!
I found out a few days ago that I cannot access RAZBAM products on Steam.
I have F-15E,AV-8,M2K and I like them all!, I don't know why this happened, but the complaint I want to clarify is that ED don't announce this situation officially at all. I have to go to Discord, X, or Reddit to get the information to know why i can't access store or why updates are no longer coming. ED has said on Discord that F-15E will not be like HAWK, but I am very concerned about the current situation

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

48 minutes ago, Tamama said:

hello!
I found out a few days ago that I cannot access RAZBAM products on Steam.
I have F-15E,AV-8,M2K and I like them all!, I don't know why this happened, but the complaint I want to clarify is that ED don't announce this situation officially at all. I have to go to Discord, X, or Reddit to get the information to know why i can't access store or why updates are no longer coming. ED has said on Discord that F-15E will not be like HAWK, but I am very concerned about the current situation

Have you tried logging in again? Sometime, you could get a server hiccup and that screws up the authentication.

[PhantomHans]

I'm concerned about the long term viability of these products, and sadly it seems that ED will only offer F-15E refunds, and not for any of the other modules that are being killed off.

[hitman]

1 hour ago, PhantomHans said:

I'm concerned about the long term viability of these products, and sadly it seems that ED will only offer F-15E refunds, and not for any of the other modules that are being killed off.

They shouldnt refund them anyways unless you've had them for 30 days or so; they've been "theoretically" released for the better part of the decade and out of EA (theoretically). It would be nice, yes...but if you know how to fly those aircraft, then you've flown them enough.

[PhantomHans]

29 minutes ago, hitman said:

They shouldnt refund them anyways unless you've had them for 30 days or so; they've been "theoretically" released for the better part of the decade and out of EA (theoretically). It would be nice, yes...but if you know how to fly those aircraft, then you've flown them enough.

I probably have under two hours, combined, in all Razbam modules.  I did intend to get around to them some day but since they're being removed that will be difficult.

[Oban]

5 hours ago, Aapje said:

We have no idea what they did during that period.

Broke the confidentiality clause that went along with the said agreement on at least 3 occasions since late 2024, on at least 2 occasions by Ron Zambrano himself. 

[Oban]

13 minutes ago, PhantomHans said:

I probably have under two hours, combined, in all Razbam modules.  I did intend to get around to them some day but since they're being removed that will be difficult.

Sounds a lot like buying a car, then leaving it in the garage for 10 years and expecting it to work as it did on day one, then after 10 years of depreciation decide that because you never used it, expect to get the same value back... 

[Goetsch]

I sincerely hope that this matter can be resolved in the way everyone hopes, but as things stand, it looks increasingly precarious. We might be about to experience another “HAWK” incident — and this time, with four modules.

I just hope that if they are truly discontinued after version 2.9, we will be able to get refunds for the AV-8, F-15E, M-2000, and MiG-19.

Otherwise, at least for me, I might genuinely leave DCS for good.

[Dangerzone]

38 minutes ago, Goetsch said:

I sincerely hope that this matter can be resolved in the way everyone hopes, but as things stand, it looks increasingly precarious. We might be about to experience another “HAWK” incident — and this time, with four modules.

I just hope that if they are truly discontinued after version 2.9, we will be able to get refunds for the AV-8, F-15E, M-2000, and MiG-19.

Otherwise, at least for me, I might genuinely leave DCS for good.

It's frustrating to potentially lose access to something you've paid for and used for years. 

But realistically, for 3 of the 4 modules, they've been available and widely used for a long time. Issuing refunds for long-used products is complicated — especially when there's no clear consensus on who's responsible. Is ED, after passing on payment to Razbam supposed to refund what they've already paid Razbam and pay out of their own pockets? 

The F-15E is a unique case, and credit to ED for offering store credits. That shows some accountability. But for the rest...

I get it - as a consumer, it sucks too. But the situation is that this is bad for all involved. No one is going to win out of this. It's going to hurt everyone. And that's the reality of it. We're all going to lose, consumer, ED, and Razbam. Expectations should be adjusted accordingly.

But it's also worth noting that the 'other sim' doesn't support module support between major versions and people may need to buy new modules for the newer versions. 3rd party devs may or may not support updates between - but that's up to the 3rd party dev's, not the 'big name company' that can't be mentioned here. Really, if ED drops support come 3.0 - they're actually only doing what 'the other sim' does anyway. If they carry on the majority of modules through 3.0 - that's actually unusual. If anything - shouldn't that be recognised for the good will that it is? If anything - DCS supporting their modules through major versions deserves recognition that it's more unusual. I'd hate to see ED do a good deed, and it being used as a rod for their back. 

On the other hand... I would happily pay for a Huey v2 in DCS 3.0 if it was updated. 

Edited yesterday at 06:00 AM by Dangerzone