Sytem Failure Modelling

[bfeld]

Hi all,

 

I recently watched that Leading Edge Training movie which explained the startup procedure. Since you are supposed to check several systems, I was suddenly wondering how detailed the systems or better their failures are modelled.

 

There's not this kind of description on the dcs homepage. In the mission editor, there are a just few failures you can force to occur.

 

So, is there a chance for the anti-ice system not to work on startup? Or can it happen, that a warning system does not work? I didn't even manage to produce any failure when setting the surrounding temperature to minimum (think it was -50°C) and fly without anti-ice systems.

Is checking on startup just for reality purposes or do I really risk to overlook a malfunction because I didn't check?

 

Cheers, bfeld

Edited July 29, 2009 by bfeld

[Boulund]

Maybe this post will prove that it was too long ago since I last read in the manual, but if malfunctions occur during startup or while checking for malfunctioning systems: how do I fix them?

[JG14_Smil]

Hello bfeld,

 

the mission creator can put a percentage of failure for several different systems (not sure which) in when they make a mission. As an example, I have had two rare system failures when online at the 159th server, which I believe, has a 1% failure rate built in. Nobody wants them to happen regularly, but I really like the way they are done at the 159th.

 

I do not do preflight checks for systems yet, but I plan to when I start using my cockpit. I believe if you have a failure in preflight, a shutdown and sit for three minutes will get you a new helo and new start and count for the next percentile failure.

[bfeld]

Hello again,

 

yes, JG14_Smil, the mission editor settings you mentioned is just what I meant in my first post. It's "only" the engines, hydraulics and autopilot systems.

 

I don't want to demand something here, it is already a very comprehensive simulation. I'm just a little curious, because I was disappointed when unsuccessfully trying to break my systems (sounds funny, I know ;)).

 

As I wrote, I tried a scenario at -50°C, but with anti-ice systems disabled. Nothing happened. I thought, it was maybe because of the helo already running. So I changed to a dark and cold start-up scenario, but again, everything worked fine. As soon as the gauges worked, they showed only some degrees below zero.

 

I tried another scenario: +50°C outside temperature. I gave full throttle and tried a lot of things to overheat the engines, but I couldn't make it.

 

In another thread, they asked why the engines still work, when fuel pumps are shut off during flight. The explanation (enough pressure by running turbines) was plausible, but it was also said they might shutdown depending on height, thus air pressure. Again, I tried a lot, but did not manage to force a malfunction of the engines.

 

[see EDIT]So I am just curious, if all these things like temperature are just for show (not meant negatively, I'd just like to know). I see them working, but do they really cause malfunctions depending for example on outside conditions? At the moment, I got a feeling that many of them are just simulated to feed the instruments. So, as I already asked: do I really need all these checks to not risk a start with a malfunction (just concerning the simulation, can they really occur)?

 

EDIT: I read the simulations description on the main dcs homepage again, especially the part about the power plant. It all seems to be simulated, maybe this beast is more robust than I thought. But still, what's about all those checks?

Edited July 29, 2009 by bfeld

[Weta43]

bfeld - not having the anti-ice on won't stop you starting, but try flying in below zero conditions (the temperature drop with altitude is modelled) and you'll discover that you'll suddenly be flying on 1 (or 0) engines...

Same with overheating - I have seen an engine (or gearbox - can't remember) fail from overheating after hovering too long on a warm day.. I ignored the Ecran warning, then I was landing in enemy territory :-)

[bfeld]

bfeld - not having the anti-ice on won't stop you starting, but try flying in below zero conditions (the temperature drop with altitude is modelled) and you'll discover that you'll suddenly be flying on 1 (or 0) engines...

That sounds good, maybe I'm doing something wrong. Of course it won't stop me from starting, I flew around, gaining height and at the limit of ~6000m I accelerated simulation time (was a little bored then :)). First thing that happened was an empty fuel tank. Again, I set up the mission to freezing -50°C :cold:.

 

Same with overheating - I have seen an engine (or gearbox - can't remember) fail from overheating after hovering too long on a warm day.. I ignored the Ecran warning, then I was landing in enemy territory :-)

I would love to experience this ;), I'll have to start a warm hovering session.

[bumfire]

Yea, I would LOVE much more different types of failures to be implemented in the sim, the computer failures that is listed in the manual but are not implemented really is needed, basically I would like a whole host of other types of failures to be implemented, as although the sim is great, it is SADLY lacking in the failures dept.

 

I know we have the same failures as we had in lockon, but that really isnt enough given this sims expansive controls. We need much more electronic failures and a more indepth intergrated failure system in the helicopter/sim fullstop as what we have now just isnt enough as its always the same failures that crop up after getting attacked, now I am sure many more systems could fail which would give the virtual pilot a better experience.

 

I am hopeful that the failure list grows with later expansion packs or even patches.

[bumfire]

bfeld - not having the anti-ice on won't stop you starting, but try flying in below zero conditions (the temperature drop with altitude is modelled) and you'll discover that you'll suddenly be flying on 1 (or 0) engines...

Same with overheating - I have seen an engine (or gearbox - can't remember) fail from overheating after hovering too long on a warm day.. I ignored the Ecran warning, then I was landing in enemy territory :-)

 

Yup, Hover too long and chances are something bad will happen to one or more engines and ignoring the ekran whilst flying in icy conditions and not having ice protection enabled is very likely to end up in tears, both examples are well known to cause the pilot grief.

 

The first time I experienced the hovering too long problem, I couldnt understand wtf just happened, but since then I tried it a few times and hovering too long definetly does cause problems simply because as you know the engines are working massive overtime to keep the helo airborne whilst in a hover and prolonging a hover for a long time isnt healthy.

Edited July 29, 2009 by bumfire

[Weta43]

simply because as you know the engines are working massive overtime to keep the helo airborne whilst in a hover and prolonging a hover for a long time isnt healthy

and apparently more so in the Ka-50 because the airflow over the heat exchangers isn't good at hover...

 

bfeld - odd - where you getting "turn on anti-ice" messages ?

Edited July 29, 2009 by Weta43

[Obiwan]

I once hovered too long in a cross-wind. My left engine overheated and died since the wind blew the exhaust back in. The other engine was fine, thankfully, and I was able to limp back to the FARP after jettisoning rocket pods and dumping Vikhrs. I'm sure you can hover way longer when pointed into the wind, but that's not where the enemy was. (another lesson on positioning for an attack :)

[wickedpenguin]

I've had a couple of strange failures recently in online missions:

 

* I've had it where the helicopter simply won't start. I'll fire up the APU, and one of the engines won't turn over. I followed the checklists to the "T" and nothing. APU was running, but the engine wouldn't light. Time to drive my flight boot up lazy crew chief's rear end!

* I was slowing to a hover and pulled up rather abruptly to slough off my speed. It wasn't a very hard maneuver but I did put a couple of G's on there. When I recovered, I discovered that my Standby Attitude Indicator had gone t**s up.

* A few weeks prior to that session above, I had done a similar maneuver but DID pull some hard G's in coming to a stop. Not only did I knock out my SAI, but my hydraulics as well! Quite the lovely surprise.

[Weta43]

Just as a check I just took off (@ -5) & flew at 3000m for about 10 min with all anti ice switches off, at which point 1 engine died quite nicely :-)

[bfeld]

@WickedPenguin: Nice, strange failures is what I hoped for :)

 

@Weta43: Thanks for testing, I will test when I'm home again. Maybe I somehow did not correctly save the weather parameter, I will check that mission again, since I didn't even get a warning.

 

 

Now, I have to go to work, it's mild summer and nobody wants me to crash anything there :cry:.

Edited July 30, 2009 by bfeld

[REL]

Hey guys

 

I was wondering if somebody knows about a complete list of all the modeled system failures ?

 

It's sure would be nice to know what to expect

[AlphaOneSix]

At -50C, you shouldn't be getting any icing, that's way too cold. Icing is rather rare below about -20C, and even then you'd have to be flying through visible moisture (i.e. clouds). If you're flying in clear skies at -50C, I'd say the chances of icing are (or should be) zero. Your most dangerous conditions for icing are going to be flying in clouds or in humid air with the temperature between 0C and -20C.

 

With regards to other failures, I am torn. On the one hand, I agree that having more things that could fail would make for a more immersive experience. On the other hand, it doesn't necessarily make for a more realistic experience.

[bfeld]

At -50C, you shouldn't be getting any icing, that's way too cold. Icing is rather rare below about -20C, and even then you'd have to be flying through visible moisture (i.e. clouds). If you're flying in clear skies at -50C, I'd say the chances of icing are (or should be) zero. Your most dangerous conditions for icing are going to be flying in clouds or in humid air with the temperature between 0C and -20C.

Ahh, okay. That sounds plausible, humidity should be important. Think it was a clear sky.

With regards to other failures, I am torn. On the one hand, I agree that having more things that could fail would make for a more immersive experience. On the other hand, it doesn't necessarily make for a more realistic experience.

I was wondering if somebody knows about a complete list of all the modeled system failures ?

The last two quotes outline my notion quite good. Although I do not demand for every little system failure to be modelled, I'm curious what the simulation engine is capable of (A lot about the main systems can be read on the DCS page, so it mostly boils down to the initial question about all those system checks. For example, what is really linked/related to the electric system?).

Edited July 30, 2009 by bfeld

[miguez]

At -50C, you shouldn't be getting any icing, that's way too cold. Icing is rather rare below about -20C, and even then you'd have to be flying through visible moisture (i.e. clouds). If you're flying in clear skies at -50C, I'd say the chances of icing are (or should be) zero. Your most dangerous conditions for icing are going to be flying in clouds or in humid air with the temperature between 0C and -20C.

 

Spot on, although I think right now Black Shark will simulate icing even in clear skies.

 

With regards to other failures, I am torn. On the one hand, I agree that having more things that could fail would make for a more immersive experience. On the other hand, it doesn't necessarily make for a more realistic experience.

 

I agree, although I think since this is a simulation, where you can practice lots of procedures, it would be a good option to have several more failures available for training purposes.

[joey45]

I had my right engine blow on take-off once...

 

heard a bang and a warning of right engine.... pressed F2 and saw thick black smoke pour out....

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we need a mayday call in the comms menu.

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[159th_Viper]

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we need a mayday call in the comms menu.

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Default Key-Press [O] [H] [F] [C] [K].......programme to Macro :joystick:

[miguez]

LOL!